Timothy McVeigh

[jesus4u]

Do you agree with death penalty?

[Bonker Gudd]

I believe that it is wrong to take a life.

I would be horrified if the Death Penalty came back in Britain.

[Arbiter]

I think it should be re-introduced.

Some people are only alive, because it's illegal to kill them.

[nullus]

I'm against the death penalty. If someone kills then they obviously have no respect for life (their own included), so killing them isn't much of a punishment in my opinion. I'd much rather know that people like him are rotting in jail for the rest of their life.

[ShIzO]

i think we should introduce the best law ever existed:

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...


Only then criminals we reconsider doing harm etc...

[Mark Sreeves]

Originally posted by ShIzO

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...




That wouldn't be very fair on dentists would it?;)

[CiberTHuG]

It seems somewhat barbaric to kill someone as "justice" but I don't see the point in locking people up for ever at great expense to us tax payers.

I don't have the source, but apparently it is more expensive for us to put a man to death then life in prison. You see, he gets appeals, and they come with publicly provided attorneys.

[nullus]

Originally posted by ShIzO
i think we should introduce the best law ever existed:

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...


Only then criminals we reconsider doing harm etc...

I don't believe any penalty is a deterrant for murder. If someone wants to kill someone else and has the ability within themself to do it, they'll do it. The consequences won't even enter their mind, they'll only care about wanting to do it and getting away with it (or in some cases, maybe not wanting to get away with it).

[simonm]

I don't believe any penalty is a deterrant for murder. If someone wants to kill someone else and has the ability within themself to do it, they'll do it. The consequences won't even enter their mind, they'll only care about wanting to do it and getting away with it (or in some cases, maybe not wanting to get away with it).

Don't kid yourself that the death penalty is about deterring murderers; it's not. It's about the satisfaction of revenge.

[Mark Sreeves]

Why do prisons prevent people from commiting suicide? If a murderer were to hill himself that would be the problem solved wouldn't it?

[SurfDemon]

I read the McVeigh story, and I honestly think he got off lightly. If I was a relative of one of the killed I would feel cheated. He killed 168 people (most in a very painful death), and paid for it witrh just 1 life, no suffering, no pain, just a little jab in the arm.


I think a lifetime in prison would have been a far more appropriate punishment. Moira Hindly and Iain Brady (Child killers from the 60's) are locked up forever in maximum security prison in Britain, they will never be released, and they will die in prison. Thats as close as we can get to torturing someone without becoming animals ourselves in my opinion. Let them suffer, their family members dying of old age etc around them, and not being able to say goodbye.


As for those who say prison is cushy, most murderers in Britain are not let wander around the 'resort' prisons, but are kept locked up in pretty horrible conditions. Don't let the tabloids fool you with their "expose's", life in prison is no picnic.

P.S. And before you ask,no I haven't done time, but a few of my mates have. It sucks.

Additionally, as has already been mentioned, it is more expensive to administer the Death Penalty.

And their is always the chance of a wrong conviction. A number of high profile cases in Britain have been overturned in the last 10 years, how do you bring a dead man back.... one that has been killed by the state.

SD

[CiberTHuG]

Originally posted by Mark Sreeves
Why do prisons prevent people from commiting suicide? If a murderer were to hill himself that would be the problem solved wouldn't it?

Well, suicide is illegal in various states. Besides, prisons should aim at rehabilitation of those who can be.

Also, we have to investigate every death, to make sure that it was a suicide and not a covered homicide. If we cut down on the number of deaths, we cut down on the number of investigations.

*shrug*

[spetnik]

I agree with the death penalty, but for those who don't, what about flogging? Can u imagine if someone convicted of 1st degree murder would be flogged with 5 lashes every day? That would scare em. And for rape and robbery too. Maybe 3 floggings a week for em.

[Mark Sreeves]

Originally posted by CiberTHuG


Well, suicide is illegal in various states. Besides, prisons should aim at rehabilitation of those who can be.

Also, we have to investigate every death, to make sure that it was a suicide and not a covered homicide. If we cut down on the number of deaths, we cut down on the number of investigations.

*shrug*

Point taken.

Originally posted by CiberTHuG

Well, suicide is illegal in various states.
?? what's the penalty for suicide then?
:confused:

[Mark Sreeves]

Originally posted by jesus4u
Do you agree with death penalty?

Hey! jesus4u there was no need to edit it!
I've been waiting for years for someone to ask if I believe in something just so I could reply like that!:D

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by Mark Sreeves

?? what's the penalty for suicide then?
:confused:

:D

[CiberTHuG]

I haven't a clue, but I imagine that the death penalty is not a good one for attempted suicide.

I imagine a fine could be posthumiously leveed against your estate, but I'm not sure if there is a punishment for suicide. Making it a crime gives the police more leinancy in stopping it. If they busted down your door and you weren't about to commit a crme, well... the ACLU wouldn't be happy. Also, they can investigate every death, even the suicides, to make sure they are suicides. If suicide wasn't illegal, it could hamper their efforts to make sure that Bob really killed himself.

I'm just speculating.

Curfews aren't really put in place as an absolute, "You must be off the street." They let cops legally harrass those who are still out.

[simonm]

what's the penalty for suicide then?

Obviously, there is no penalty. The law is to give the police the authority to intervene and stop someone who is trying to commit suicide (which they wouldn't otherwise be able to do).

Can u imagine if someone convicted of 1st degree murder would be flogged with 5 lashes every day? That would scare em. And for rape and robbery too. Maybe 3 floggings a week for em.

Scare them from what? It certainly wouldn't deter murderers from committing tha act in the first place. OK, it would certainly make them suffer but to what end?

[nullus]

Originally posted by simonm

Scare them from what? It certainly wouldn't deter murderers from committing tha act in the first place. OK, it would certainly make them suffer but to what end?

I agree, prison should be for rehabilitation. Obviously it shouldn't be made a nice place to be, but if you flog people, they're probably more likely to develop more anger and commit more crimes when released.

[SurfDemon]

I'm no criminal psychologist, but I'm guessing that most people who commit murder do so on the spur of the moment or as clearly thought out, premeditated acts.

If it's the former they aren't thinking of the punishment, if it's the latter they don't care about the punishment (either death or a life-time in prison).

My point is, that increasing the severity of the penalty does not produce a drop in the crime rate.

Robert Louis Stephenson wrote an interesting short story about a very religous man who breaks into a shop and kills the owner and meets the devil.

In his own mind he believes that he can perform any act, ask god for forgiveness and everything will be all right. He didn't care about any earthly punishment. It's a fascinating story as the twist is of course that he is adhering strictly to the teachings of the church, and therefore he feels he is immune to any punishment on earth. His plight is made all the more vivid by the fact he has led a pretty sh*tty life, and doesn't really care about death. In the end he turns himself into the police and is happy because he reckons he will go to heaven.

So, my point here is, if you have somebody who isn't frightened of death (and this applies to alot of people, generally mad ones, but also people who don't want to go on living) why should the death penalty be any sort of deterant? Look at the amount of gunmen who go on killing spree's and then commit suicide at the end...


SD

[Technocrat]

Why is jesus4u starting all these controversial threads?
Is someone bored?
Or maybe jesus4u is Satan? satan4u?

[nullus]

SD, that was my point slightly earlier ;)

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by nullus
SD, that was my point slightly earlier ;)

And a damn fine point it was too :)

SD

[nullus]

Originally posted by SurfDemon


And a damn fine point it was too :)

SD

:D looks like we've agreed on something then :p

[FantastichenEin]

I agree with the death penalty,

I don't agree with the statement.
"It is cheaper to execute than to imprison"

Even if this statement is true, it is so wrong to compare the death penalty to how much it costs.

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by FantastichenEin
I agree with the death penalty,

I don't agree with the statement.
"It is cheaper to execute than to imprison"

Even if this statement is true, it is so wrong to compare the death penalty to how much it costs.

It is true, I too have read this on a number of occasions, but I think it was raised because it is used by a number of pro-death penalty people as an argument. i.e. "Why should they continue to be a drain on the tax payer."

SD

[Tygur]

I think McVeigh should not have gotten the death penalty, because he wanted it. Why punish him with death if he wants it?

I'm pretty much neutral about the issue of the death penalty as a whole.

[parksie]

I think the penalty for attempted suicide should be death. Makes life simple and at least they won't struggle when you strap them down...

[Behemoth]

We could extract the life from the murderer and distibute it around his victims... That would be fair - if only it were possible.

[simonm]

Well, actually, I've been working on a new machine...

[manic_gofar]

i think they should leave punishment the victims and families of, and if they want to beat the criminals to death with hand bags i think they should go for it, like they do in the middle east, (however its not intirely idorsed their):cool:

[simonm]

Timothy McVeigh killed innocent people intentionally. He knew what he was doing. Usually an ordinary criminal would kill someone just to save his own skin. But this was a conscious attempt at mass murder.

Actually, his primary intention was not mass murder. It was to spark an uprising against the government which he viewed as morally corupt. He expressed regret at the suffering he had caused but still thought he was justified in what he did.

I'm not defending him in what he did but he did think he was morally justified. Just as Nato thought they were morally justified in bombing a TV studio in Belgrade that was only occupied by civilians. Is that any less of a crime than Timothy's? Nato would say that civillian casulties are innevitable in war. Timothy thought he was at war with the American government.

Who are we to judge?

[manic_gofar]

Hi, does anyone know where their is a network game, in england prefferably in the north somewhere i am getting bored and need a descent 6 hours playing half-life counter-strike, unreal tournament, quake3 arena, any one,hey,please,hmmm. ok

[nullus]

Originally posted by manic_gofar
Hi, does anyone know where their is a network game, in england prefferably in the north somewhere i am getting bored and need a descent 6 hours playing half-life counter-strike, unreal tournament, quake3 arena, any one,hey,please,hmmm. ok

What gives you the right to go around blasting people's heads off? You should be given the death penalty! :D :rolleyes:

[manic_gofar]

find me a network game in england and i will let you pronounce my death penalty.

[nullus]

this has kinda got off the subject a bit (just create a new thread with this q) :p

[manic_gofar]

personally i dont think they should have excecuted him due to the fact that he believed he was doing gods work and it was his personal opinion and by putting him on death row and excecuting him was taking away that freedom true he killed many people but i dont hink it is up to the courts to decide what his fate is and i think the surviving victims and the families of the victims should be the ones to decide what should become of him, i bet that one of the victims would not of sentenced that man to death

[Jeff_1]

Dont execute anyone anymore..just make them work hard labor 23 hours out of the day for the rest of their life.

Executing is too easy....

[Tygur]

Originally posted by Jeff_1
Dont execute anyone anymore..just make them work hard labor 23 hours out of the day for the rest of their life.

Executing is too easy....

Wouldn't that eventually kill them anyway?

[parksie]

Yes, but it's more interesting :D

[CiberTHuG]

Originally posted by manic_gofar
personally i dont think they should have excecuted him due to the fact that he believed he was doing gods work and it was his personal opinion and by putting him on death row and excecuting him was taking away that freedom true he killed many people but i dont hink it is up to the courts to decide what his fate is and i think the surviving victims and the families of the victims should be the ones to decide what should become of him, i bet that one of the victims would not of sentenced that man to death

Well, even if one victim's survivors decided to spare is life, what if all the others want him put to death?

That is why we have courts, to make the decision as a group.

[Jethro]

Originally posted by CiberTHuG


A penal colony? Don't you mean Australia.
.

Naw, we actually have closed off Botany Bay to illegal immigrants from Pomgolia.

Used to argue for the death penalty, now believe it just lowers our civilisation to the level of the person being executed. Probably in some areas of the world this guy would be considered a hero.

[Jeff_1]

Yea that would kill him anyway..so let's say 15 hours hard... no..deathly hard labor in alaska ( we dont have siberia here in the U.S. so alaska is the only thing we can come up with )..
Hard labor in a frigid climate....how worse can it get?

[Jethro]

Originally posted by Jeff_1
Yea that would kill him anyway..so let's say 15 hours hard... no..deathly hard labor in alaska ( we dont have siberia here in the U.S. so alaska is the only thing we can come up with )..
Hard labor in a frigid climate....how worse can it get?

Hard labour on the Bush family ranch? Or forced to listen to Jeb Bush rationalisation his anti-democratic stance on constent recall.

[Imhotep]

They should serve me an undead priest in perpetual agony for all eternity!!!

[simonm]

Hard labor in a frigid climate....how worse can it get?

What about hard labour in a hot climate? Perhaps chopping wood in the swamps in the south?

[chenko]

HB: ARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH no!!!!!!

Originally posted by Behemoth
It was painless, and he died in the cliched "cold, staring" manner of a madman.

painless, eh?

I thought the injection stopped the lungs for absorbing air?

[MPrestonf12]

I think that McVeigh should have been given a pick and shovel and cleaned up the entire mess, 15hrs a day- everyday

[Tygur]

Originally posted by chenko
painless, eh?

I thought the injection stopped the lungs for absorbing air?
Yeah, but if I understand correctly, he was knocked out by then. If I'm wrong, somebody let me know.

[Jethro]

Originally posted by honeybee
Here is some punishment Jethro would like to give the likes of McVeigh! (OK, this is my guess actually)

Make them maintain VB code to be up-to-date with the latest MS Technology fancies. Especially make them upgrade DAO code to ADO.

Any more such punishments ??

;)

.

Naw, force them to rewrite every single data control vb system every written. Hmmm.,.....mind you replacing FindFirst and FindNext methods.

Or

He could have been forced to debug vb.net.

[spetnik]

Originally posted by Tygur

Yeah, but if I understand correctly, he was knocked out by then. If I'm wrong, somebody let me know.
by the time he started dying, he was completely dissoriented. I doubt he had any more pain than just a ***** in the arm.

[FantastichenEin]

There are 3 liquids used,

1st.
A general anethstic, basically the same stuff they use to put you to sleep before an operation.
You have to consider that in a lethal injection, up to 50 Times the amount used in surgery, is injected.
Of course a lethal dosage in itself. I doubt whether the inmate would feel the next bit at all

2nd
A muscle relaxant that paralyses the Diaphram and Lungs

3rd
A toxic poison to interfere with heart signals.


Although this is probally not a painful death, it is not:
An easy death
An easy way out

You just speak to a person on a cancer ward with terminal cancer and see if they would rather do 50 years hard time rather than dying,
Im sure 90% would.

[Arbiter]

Surely the idea is to punish these people.

We don't want to give them the best of two options do we? They're criminals...

As for all the moaning about it being more expensive to kill them, that's utter drivel.

There should be no holding them on 'death row', no appeal process. If found guilty, hang them the next day. Cheap, efficient, effective.

[Arbiter]

There is no 100% accurate of determine guilt. It's likely that some innocent people will also be put to the sword due to a wrong verdict, but hey - **** happens.

As long as all reasonable care is taken to prevent this then the system will work to punish offending criminals and also deter would be criminals.

Only the insane are going to commit crimes if they know they is a very high chance that they're going to be torched if they're caught.

[parksie]

Anyway, for a lethal injection it's (mostly) painless, and once you're dead...YOU DON'T CARE! It's not as if McVeigh is worrying about the consequences of his actions now considering that he, as a person, no longer exists :)