Trustworthiness of the Bible (cont'd)

[SoC]

OK... I read some (mainly the first and last pages) of the "Can you trust the Bible" discussion.

I'm here to stand in the "I believe it" camp. :)

My challenge to all you in the "I don't believe it" camp is to try and disprove it.
If you can do that in any part of it then there's a problem with it and it's not worth the time to trust it.
If you can't then you chould really consider actually believing what it says.;)

You post what you don't believe about it, and I or any of the others here that are in my camp will answer you.

I'd say good luck but that'd be pointless as the Bible is inerrant. :D

[HarryW]

Good grief.

[SurfDemon]

Er, surely the point is not to disprove it, but for you to prove it.

I could say that this dot on the paper infront of me is actually god. It would be almost impossible to disprove because I could always fall back on the catch all statement of "Well, god works in mysterious ways" :)

I'm glad you believe in the bible. The point of the other thread was do people believe in the bible. For you thats a yes, for me it's a no. simple.

Anyway if you really want somebody to shake your faith here's a theory I posted in the bible thread (sorry for repeating it):

If god does exist, how do you know you can believe him? Maybe this is all some huge practical joke on a cosmic scale. Maybe this is how god gets his kicks. And if god exists, then it stands to reason that Satan exists, so why shouldn't we worship Satan? All we know about him we've heard from God, and he's not exactly impartial in these matters Maybe Satans a great guy and this god fellow's been dissing him for millenia just because he's a lot more fun at parties and the chicks dig him?

The balls in your court.

SD

[SoC]

Q:Why can I believe him?
A:Simple. He's the only one who has sent his only Son to die for me and save me from the wages of my sin (which BTW is eternal separation from God, aka Hell).

Q:Why not worship Satan?
A:Simple. He's already been defeated. When Christ rose from the dead on the third day, Satan was defeated. He has no power in my life. That goes for any other Christian as well.

And no, I don't need to prove the Bible. It does that on it's own. I'm just trying to set you straight. :)

[HarryW]

Hold me back....

[barrk]

Watch it Harry...it's just not worth it! Walk away while you still can!!!

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by SoC
Q:Why can I believe him?
A:Simple. He's the only one who has sent his only Son to die for me and save me from the wages of my sin (which BTW is eternal separation from God, aka Hell).

Q:Why not worship Satan?
A:Simple. He's already been defeated. When Christ rose from the dead on the third day, Satan was defeated. He has no power in my life. That goes for any other Christian as well.

And no, I don't need to prove the Bible. It does that on it's own. I'm just trying to set you straight. :)

But you only have this god fellows word for this. As for sending his son, again, this could be a deception. If he's as powerful as you say then this would be no problem to him. You still haven't answered how you know he's not lying. Or are you incapable of questioning the possibility that you have been deceived by god.

SD

[SurfDemon]

Yeah Harry, don't let it worry you. If the chap wants to argue theology then I'll quite calmly go through the logical steps.

Think happy thoughts. (Although I have to say I entirely agree with your 'Good Grief' post :rolleyes: )

SD

[Lethal]

Whats the consequences if you do not believe in God and come to find out, he does exist. You burn in hell. What's happens if you do believe in god, and come to find out, that there is not a god. Nothing....
You live with the worms
Game, set, match..

[barrk]

Originally posted by SurfDemon
Yeah Harry, don't let it worry you. If the chap wants to argue theology then I'll quite calmly go through the logical steps.

Think happy thoughts. (Although I have to say I entirely agree with your 'Good Grief' post :rolleyes: )

SD

Stating that he knows it's true because

Simple. He's the only one who has sent his only Son to die for me and save me from the wages of my sin

is not proof...it's not using any logic and leaves no room for discussion.....you're just beating a dead horse...Ibut if you feel so inclined SD...have a nut!

[parksie]

I'm firmly in the atheist camp because there is no proof against God, and no proof for God.

Therefore by Occam's razor, since there's no proof either way, you take the most likely based on everyday occurences. Since neither I or anyone I know has ever seen a miracle, I'm going for the "no God" option.

[kedaman]

Occam's razor is both useful and useless. God both exists and doesn't, if we can get down to business then there's no doubt where this is going to end

[SoC]

It's called faith. I have faith that God has been telling the truth (something you obviously lack). I have no reason to doubt what he says. When everything that God says has come true and been right and nothing Satan has said has ever worked out for the good, then I know who is telling the truth.

Example:
God Said He'd send his son to save us. It happened.
Satan said he'd make himself like God. That utterly failed. Now he's lower than dirt.

As for the possibility that Satan's the good guy...
Why is it that Satan is the one that tries to destroy us and not God?
Why is it that Satan points you to any religion except Christianity?

If you read the Bible, it says that Lucifer (Satan before he fell, meaning he was an angel) tried to make himself like God. and because of that, God threw him out of Heaven. He still has access to heaven, but does not live there anymore.

Are you denying that Christ even came to earth at all?

A few questions for you...

1)Why is it that satanic practices won't work around Christians? (EG: ougia boards (however it's spelled), fortune telling)

2)If God is so bad then why does he tell you that you're worth something and that he wants you while satan tells you you're nothing and that you shouldn't be alive?

3)If Satan's such a nice guy then why is it that he pushes stuff like suicide, drinking, drugs?

4)If you don't think you need God, why do you never feel completely at peace?

If you can't answer those questions, I can.

[parksie]

1)Why is it that satanic practices won't work around Christians? (EG: ougia boards (however it's spelled), fortune telling)
Never tried a Ouija board, so I wouldn't know.

2)If God is so bad then why does he tell you that you're worth something and that he wants you while satan tells you you're nothing and that you shouldn't be alive?
Because Satan's right - I am worth nothing :)

3)If Satan's such a nice guy then why is it that he pushes stuff like suicide, drinking, drugs?
Because they're the fun part of life, at least to twisted people like me.

4)If you don't think you need God, why do you never feel completely at peace?
I am at peace. I'm perfectly happy with my life as it stands.

[SoC]

You're all posting faster than I can reply! :)

Whats the consequences if you do not believe in God and come to find out, he does exist. You burn in hell. What's happens if you do believe in god, and come to find out, that there is not a god. Nothing....

Well there is a God, so if you don't believe in him, yes it's hell.

Therefore by Occam's razor, since there's no proof either way, you take the most likely based on everyday occurences. Since neither I or anyone I know has ever seen a miracle, I'm going for the "no God" option.

So you've never heard of anyone beating cancer? living through something that should've killed them? Those are miracles.

Occam's razor is both useful and useless. God both exists and doesn't, if we can get down to business then there's no doubt where this is going to end
It's got 2 possible endings... I think you all know what they are. ;)

[parksie]

So you've never heard of anyone beating cancer? living through something that should've killed them? Those are miracles.Not really. It's called medical science.

Remember that word: Science. Without it, if they lived, then it could possibly be a miracle.

[SoC]

Because Satan's right - I am worth nothing
God doesn't think so.

Because they're the fun part of life, at least to twisted people like me.
Where do these things take you? What do they do for you? They kill you. exactly what Satan wants. He wants to kill you before you have a chance to meet Christ.

I am at peace. I'm perfectly happy with my life as it stands.
Really? I'll bet that, if you use drugs and stuff like that, you are always looking for a better rush, a longer high, etc. That doesn't sound like peace to me. I'm talking about a peace that passes understanding.

[barrk]

Originally posted by SoC

Are you denying that Christ even came to earth at all?

why do you never feel completely at peace?



Christ as a human has been documented so yes I do believe he lived.

Who says I never feel completely at peace? I am one of the luckiest people I know. I have a wonderful life. A husband of 20 years, three kids who I cherish and I don't want or need anything more. Who are you to pass judgement on me and assume that I am not ever completely at peace?

[parksie]

three kids who I cherishWell, two ;)

SoC -- is it that strange to you that I might not want to go the "God route"? I may prefer Hell for all you know :)

[kedaman]

who told you Heaven is better than Hell?

[SoC]

Originally posted by parksie
Not really. It's called medical science.

Remember that word: Science. Without it, if they lived, then it could possibly be a miracle.
True Science agrees with the Bible. Remember that! :P
Example:
I'm not sure if it'd be psychology or not but this is what I'm going to call it.
Problems like drinking are usually done by the father in a family and the son when he grows up (or before in this twisted society). Even the Grandfather and son of the son would very likely be drinkers. That confirms a verse in the Bible that says the sins of the father are visited to the 3rd and 4th generations.

[barrk]

Originally posted by parksie
Well, two ;)


Oddly enough, Parksie...I do cherish Ian. He is teaching me that I lack patience...that I don't handle defiance well and making me look at how I could have handled situations better. Some times that bad stuff should be cherished as much as the good stuff! I know it sounds really weird but I think that Ian found out just where the line is that you don't cross and I know he'll think twice about doing it again! We'll both come out of this with a better understanding of how to deal with difficult situations....and how not to cause them.......if he's willing.

[parksie]

Good point Katie :)

SoC -- my mum's the drinker, and nobody else is to the same extent. Shows how out of touch the bible is as well, especially since it seems to give the impression that men are superior, which is total bullstuff :)

[SoC]

Who says I never feel completely at peace? I am one of the luckiest people I know. I have a wonderful life. A husband of 20 years, three kids who I cherish and I don't want or need anything more. Who are you to pass judgement on me and assume that I am not ever completely at peace?
I never said that you don't have peace. I said you don't have the peace that I'm talking about, peace that passes understanding. (don't ask me to explain it. it's past my understanding)

SoC -- is it that strange to you that I might not want to go the "God route"? I may prefer Hell for all you know
I don't see why. Why be burned forever? I'm talking NO relief. imagine the worst pain you've ever had and magnify that times infinity over eternity. That is Hell.

who told you Heaven is better than Hell?
Lets see... Streets of gold, worshiping Christ forever, and no pain or being burned in fire for eternity without any relief. I'd say that heaven is better.

[SoC]

SoC -- my mum's the drinker, and nobody else is to the same extent. Shows how out of touch the bible is as well, especially since it seems to give the impression that men are superior, which is total bullstuff
The truth is that men are better at leadership. That's the way men were designed. We run on fact, women run on emotion. Emotion can cause alot of problems in leadership. It does not ever say that men are superior. just that a women is not to be in authority over a man.

As for the Bible being out of touch... I see that you say "to the same extent" as if someone else does drink. That right there nullifies your statement.

[kedaman]

you didn't answer my qwestion although it was meant to be rhetorical :rolleyes:

[SoC]

Who?
I decided for myself. I just can't make it there on my own.

[kedaman]

you don't want or can't answer my simple question?

[SoC]

I decided on my own. That answers your question.

[kedaman]

No it doesn't, because i've never seen hell or heaven.

[SoC]

Neither have I. I do know what each will be like though. I made my decision on which is better a based on stuff you can read in the Bible

[kedaman]

that was the answer i wanted. Now who wrote the bible?

[SoC]

Men, inspired by God.

I see where you're going with this. But have you ever tried to just disprove one part of the Bible.

Another question. If it's so out of date why is it the all-time best seller?
Why has it survived through about 2 thousand years when no other book has?

What I'm getting at is if you think that the men who wrote this make the Bible untrustworthy, why is it impossible to disprove?

[kedaman]

How do you respond to the fact that I wrote the whole bible?
Why should i?
People has a "good" taste :rolleyes:

[Bjwbell]

if someone wrote a book saying there was a city of gold in africa 2000 years ago you couldn't disprove it.
what i'm saying is even if you can't disprove something doesn't make it true.

[SoC]

I'd respond like this. I don't believe you. Simply because of a few facts in the Bible.

1) No man (or woman) will ever exceed 120 years of age. (this was implemented after the flood so don't try to use Adam as a problem.)
2)The Bible is inerrant. You are not.

[SoC]

Actually you can disprove something like that. All you have to do is dig, research, etc.
The Bible is different because if you want to try to disprove it, you can, but the more you try the more you'll realize that it's true.

Example:
Jack McDowell did this very thing, try to disprove the bible. He couldn't and became a Christian. He wrote a book called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."
You should read it.

[kedaman]

I don't care if you believe me or not, i wrote the bible so that you would only believe what is written there, not what really is true. That doesn't conflict with 1) or 2)

[Bjwbell]

How can the bible be free of errors when it's been translated several times?

[kedaman]

because the truth adapts

[SoC]

I don't care if you believe me or not, i wrote the bible so that you would only believe what is written there, not what really is true. That doesn't conflict with 1) or 2)
Yes it conflicts with 1, because the Bible has been around a long time before you or I.

How can the bible be free of errors when it's been translated several times?
God is there. He keeps it from being messed up. And if you want you can get a copy of what the dead sea scrolls say and check for yourself.

[HarryW]

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/record_catagories/recordcategories.asp?CategoryID=6&SubCategoryID=85

"The oldest fully authenticated age to which any human has ever lived is 122 years and 164 days, by Jeanne Louise Calment. She was born in France on February 21, 1875, and died at a nursing home in Arles, southern France on August 4, 1997"

[SoC]

because the truth adapts
No. Truth is absolute. just because you say that 1+1=3 doesn't mean it has adapted to you. It's a scientific absolute that 1+1=2.

[kedaman]

That doesn't conflict with the matter that i wrote the bible.

[SoC]

Guiness made a mistake. Somewhere along the way someone miscounted or she was told a false birthday or something. I can guarantee you that she was not 122.

[SoC]

If you wrote the Bible then answer me this. What does Proverbs 32 say?

[kedaman]

just because i wrote the bible, it doesn't mean it's true. if 1+1=2 is only a scientific absolute, then what do you care?

[HarryW]

Of course! It's a lie! Lies, communism, propaganda! Satan is tempting you away from the true path! Fleeeeeee!!

[SoC]

I didn't say that.

I said that she was not truly 122.

I will research this and let you know what I find later.

[HarryW]

Oh goody, I'm looking forward to it already, I can hardly contain myself. I await a series of links to fervently religious websites with gallons of faith and a very meagre sprinkling of 'evidence'.

[SoC]

I will give you straight evidence as I don't have links to "overly religious sites", as you call them.

BTW: is there a bug in the post counting code? I've posted a few times... :P

[HarryW]

Let me suggest a starting point for you - www.christianlesbians.com . I go there whenever I feel in need of a chuckle.

Posts in chit-chat don't count.

[kedaman]

what do you care about "scientific absolutes", youre suppose to believe in the words i wrote for you

[SoC]

True Christians aren't lesbians or homsexuals.

[HarryW]

It just gets better and better.

[Bjwbell]

i thought you where going to resist posting Harry?:p

[SoC]

Originally posted by kedaman
what do you care about "scientific absolutes", youre suppose to believe in the words i wrote for you

I don't see an answer... hmmm...

maybe you forgot. I'l ask an easier one.

What was the main point of the OT? (if you really wrote the Bible then you'd know what OT means.)

[HarryW]

Nobody held me back :rolleyes: I did warn you. Take a look at that website btw, it's good for a laugh ;)

[SoC]

Sorry... not interested.

[kedaman]

I'm asking the qwestions, you only need to know what is good for you. If you truly is a christian then you should answer all my qwestions correctly.

[HarryW]

I wasn't talking to you Sock.

[kedaman]

i'll have a look Harry ;) and probably a good laugh too :)

[SoC]

Hmmm.. still no answer...

If you'd written the Bible then you'd know it says to test everything to see if it's of God. You obviously are not. God does not demand blind faith as you do.

You are your own downfall.

Harry,

At least you pronounce it right. :)
But it is SoC, no k.
It means Soldier of Christ as my logo shows.

[kedaman]

Did i imply i was god in the first place?

[HarryW]

Oh really? Silly me. It seems so obvious that you might even think that I already knew that.




:rolleyes:

[SoC]

Yes. You calimed to write the Bible. In essence God did write the Bible, just through men.

I've gotta go. Be back Thursday.

[HarryW]

Hey, don't you forget that 'evidence', ya hear? i'd hate to miss out on that revelation.

[kedaman]

If i wrote a whole book, and god wrote it through me, then does that imply i'm god?

[SurfDemon]

Hey, you guys have been having way to much fun while I was away.

Interesting SoC that your attitude to drinking and drugs is that they are evil. You are so quick to scorn that which you do not understand. Where do you draw the line between medical drugs and recreational drugs? Because some doctor or priest decided? If they make marijauna legal next year for medical purposes (as they probably will in Canada) will it cease to be evil?

You're comments earlier about Satan did this or Satan did that fail to account for the fact that all these comments came from God. So back to my original qustion: How do you know you can trust him?

As for quiji boards not working around Christians, if you believe they work at all then you are a frighteningly gullible individual (in my humble opinion), I have never heard of anyone who really believes they work. Maybe I come from a cynical group of people:)

The whole drinking thing. I drink, my whole family drinks and all my friends male and female drink, it's what Scottish and Irish people do. We are completely in control of our lives and you standing on your principaled high horse shows us all how closed your mind is. It is quite apparent that you believe things are good or evil. There is no inbetween. In your eyes drinking is evil because eithher
a) Some people abuse alchohol
or
b)This god chappy (who we don't trust yet) says so.
I'm curious to hear any other grounds you have.

Finally, like Katie I am completely at peace with myself. I have a family whom I love and who love me. It is unbelievably arrogant of you to say that we can never know true happiness (or peace) how would you know. I was a Christian, most of my friends where Christians (some still are), I'm much happier now than I ever was. I know, you're going to say I wasn't a true believer, the standard retoric in undefendable positions of faith. Can't you come up with something more concrete than that none excuse?

SD

P.S. The bible being a best seller: I couldn't stop laughing at this. One you have a large group of people who feel morally obliged to buy it, you have churches who buy it by the hundreds, but mostly it has been on sale longer than ANY other book in history. It doesn't take a genius to work out why it's a best seller.

So back to my original question. How do we know we can trust this god guy? We know we can't take the bible's word 'cause he wrote it. So?:D

[kedaman]

In fact there's no chance we have a god at all, i didn't feel inspired by something when i wrote the book, I wrote the book to get all the money from the sales ;)

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by SoC

Example:
God Said He'd send his son to save us. It happened. If he's a god then it would be soooo easy to fake this. I could even fake my own death and aint a god.
Satan said he'd make himself like God. That utterly failed. Now he's lower than dirt.According to the bible written by this god guy.

As for the possibility that Satan's the good guy...
Why is it that Satan is the one that tries to destroy us and not God? Er, would this happen to have come from the bible again?
Why is it that Satan points you to any religion except Christianity? And this, where did this come from? :) The bible again? Or has been taught to you as a fact from the big Christian bumper book of facts that seems to be quoted as Proof

If you read the Bible, it says that Lucifer (Satan before he fell, meaning he was an angel) tried to make himself like God. and because of that, God threw him out of Heaven. He still has access to heaven, but does not live there anymore. According to the bible written by this god guy once again :rolleyes:

Are you denying that Christ even came to earth at all? Nope. I have no problem with that part. Doesn't make the rest of it true though :)

A few questions for you...

1)Why is it that satanic practices won't work around Christians? (EG: ougia boards (however it's spelled), fortune telling) You believe in this mumbo-jumbo. That figues :rolleyes:

2)If God is so bad then why does he tell you that you're worth something and that he wants you while satan tells you you're nothing and that you shouldn't be alive? Er, how exactly does Satan tell us this? I hae always held myself in incredibly high esteem. Maybe it's because the church finds it easy to prey on emotionally low or weak people???

3)If Satan's such a nice guy then why is it that he pushes stuff like suicide, drinking, drugs? Again, where did you hear this. The big bumper book of indisputable Christian facts? I aint gone on Suicide, but hey, the other two are fine in my books as long as they aren't abused. This Satan chap sounds like a good time party dude:)

4)If you don't think you need God, why do you never feel completely at peace? We've already covered this. I am completely at peace. Who feeds you these facts? It is quite apparent that the last one is completely wrong, so maybe the person that told you these things is wrong about everything else?

If you can't answer those questions, I can. As you can see I'm quite capable of answering them. I await your response eagerly:)

[HarryW]

While you're waiting, feel free to peruse www.christianlesbians.com

[SurfDemon]

It was a good laugh, but I expected more pictures (of lesbians!!)... oh, hang on that'll be Satan telling me to say that :)

SD

[CyberSurfer]

SoC, I have been a Christian for several years, and I have to say that you are making somewhat of a fool of yourself!

Firstly, you cannot throw scripture at people with the intelligence of the people who have been posting in this thread without the theological knowledge to back it up! I would be extremely reluctant to start a discussion like this, as I am not yet confident enough in my biblical knowledge to put forward convincing arguments.

Secondly, I'm not sure I agree with some of your decidedly dubious interpretations of the bible! Especially those regarding drinking! MY Gradfather was an alcoholic, but neither myself or my father have ever been drunk, although we do drink. None of my grandfathers male ancestors were alcoholics. How do you explain that? The thing is, the bible permits drinking in moderation!!!

[simonm]

If you are looking for any evidence that the Bible is incorrect then it depends on how rigidly you interpret the Bible. If you insist on taking it at face value and word for word then it is easy to show flaws and contradictions in the bible. If, on the other hand, you wish to apply a loose interpretation of the bible then it's always going to be impossible to prove the bible wrong.

There are two things here that should not be confused. Proof that God does not exist and proof that the bible is incorrect/flawed/could not be the word of God. The existance of God cannot ever be disprooved but the Bible can.

Anyone who wants a rundown on all the flaws and contradictions there are to be found in the Bible (both old and new testament), may I suggest this book by Thomas Paine: 'The Age of Reason'. It was written over two hundred years ago by a deist (someone who believes in god but rejects all forms of institutionalised religion). In this book (actually two books combined) he systematically takes apart the bible by critically appraising it and then finally advocates Deism as the way forward.

Now, don't get me wrong. It doesn't mean that everything in the Bible must be wrong. It's just that if you find one thing in the bible that cannot be true, the whole book must be re-appraised as you can't take for granted that anything in the book is the word of god.

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by CyberSurfer
The thing is, the bible permits drinking in moderation!!!

Let's all go to moderation for a partttyyyy!!!!

So, SoC, I am geniunly interested in what you consider evil from the following.

Gays
Lesbians
Harry Potter books
Contraception
Drinking
Drugs (medical)
Drugs (Recreational)
Medicine
Palentology
Biology
Doggy style sex
Sodomy
Oral sex
Group Sex
Pre-marital sex
Sex for any reason other than procreation
Masturbation
Divorce
Gambling
Dancing
Whistling on a Sunday

and do you consider women inferior to men, and/or other religions inferior to Christians?

I am genuinly curious as some of your previous posts have peaked my curiosity.

SD

[CyberSurfer]

Lol @ SD :D:D:D!!