Why VB beta 2 Only? Has MS Gone Bonkers?

[DarkPhoenix]

I am new here. I went to MS to get and learn VB Studio 2008 Express, only to find out the 2010 beta 2 was available - In fact.. there is No Way to download VB Studio Express 2008 that I can find.. every link goes to the 2010 beta 2.

This is really bugging me.

What if the Beta 2 is buggy? What If in the middle of the project I find there is a bug in the beta 2 that keeps me from finishing the project?

What if what I want to do (because my lessons are made for VB Studio Express 2008) are not 100% compatible with the 2010 beta 2?

It is my understanding that a beta is a beta.. not a fully released version. Yet the MS Website is treating it like its already a finished product by not letting you download the "fully tested and stable" 2008 edition.

Usually Betas are offered for bug testing along with the latest full program version. Not as a replacement for the full version as Microsoft has done here.

What on Earth is Microsoft thinking?? Don't they know the difference between a beta and a full release version?

Since I cannot download the 2008 version of visual studio, I am almost afraid to try this thing because it's still in beta!

How long will it be till they come out with the full VB Studio Express 2010 Full Non beta version?

[keystone_paul]

Note sure why microsoft have done that (http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/)- the graphics say 2008 but the links download 2010.

You can download from here (http://www.freewarefiles.com/downloads_counter.php?programid=17931)though - I've checked and it is 2008

[DarkPhoenix]

Thanks again Paul.. See.. I was thinking about what you said in my other post.. I don't really understand how having the full studio would help with my webkit project as opposed to just the VB express, but I figured I better get the whole thing - that's when I noticed there was no way to get the 2008 version.

I am going to get both full versions of MS Visual Studio Express and register them.. just in case.

[keystone_paul]

Thanks again Paul.. See.. I was thinking about what you said in my other post.. I don't really understand how having the full studio would help with my webkit project as opposed to just the VB express, but I figured I better get the whole thing - that's when I noticed there was no way to get the 2008 version.

I am going to get both full versions of MS Visual Studio Express and register them.. just in case.

What I was saying in your other thread was that with webkit you can either use the compiled version - which is just the same as using ie as a shell, or because webkit is open-source you could actually take their source code and build upon that.

The problem is that the source code is C++, so if you have Visual C++ then you'd be able to use their source code, however of course you'll have to learn a new language to do that, and C++ is a lot harder than VB.Net to learn!

It all depends on why you don't want to write a wrapper around the IE control really.

[DarkPhoenix]

Ahh I understand now.. Thanks!!

Yeah.. I may just go ahead and commit to learning C++ and Visual C++ to do this. It would be well worth it.

I want this to be something that's possibly cross platform down the road. I think learning whatever I can from MS will be a big help after the Visual C++ Express teaches me all it can. I plan to do the project in VB first using the wrapper to help refine the designs and ideas, then at a later date rewrite the thing for WebKit.

I have always stayed away from programming since everyone says C++ is hard but I feel since VB uses C++ it can be a great way to start off.

[keystone_paul]

I feel since VB uses C++ it can be a great way to start off

Huh? I don't follow what you mean there.

As for C++ being hard I've been programming for probably 25 years, commercially for 15 years and have tried and given up learning C++ several times. I'm not saying you won't be able to do it, I'm just advising it is very different from VB!

[chris128]

good to know I'm not the only one that goes through that cycle every now and then (convincing myself I'm going to learn C++... then giving up)

[JuggaloBrotha]

I am new here. I went to MS to get and learn VB Studio 2008 Express, only to find out the 2010 beta 2 was available - In fact.. there is No Way to download VB Studio Express 2008 that I can find.. every link goes to the 2010 beta 2The Download buttons next to each DropDown (English is selected by default) for each Express edition on this page: http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/ downloads the corresponding 2008 Express edition like it has for the last 2 years.

I see there's a link for VS 2010 Beta 2 under each DropDown, which is new to me, but the Download button still works the same.

Also the Button next to the DropDown at the bottom of the page downloads the 2008 Express editions DVD image like normal too.

[keystone_paul]

I see there's a link for VS 2010 Beta 2 under each DropDown, which is new to me, but the Download button still works the same

Ah I see you are quite right - its just a piece of horrifically bad UI design by Microsoft... as the text "Download Visual Basic 2010 Beta 2" isn't underlined and uses identical font and emphasis as other descriptive text in the same blocks it looks like that is just more explanation over what is being downloaded, rather than a link to download something completely different.

[JuggaloBrotha]

Ah I see you are quite right - its just a piece of horrifically bad UI design by Microsoft... as the text "Download Visual Basic 2010 Beta 2" isn't underlined and uses identical font and emphasis as other descriptive text in the same blocks it looks like that is just more explanation over what is being downloaded, rather than a link to download something completely different.I have no problem with it, the download button for the express edition is twice the size of the link (font size)

I don't see how anyone could mistake it like this.

[keystone_paul]

I have no problem with it, the download button for the express edition is twice the size of the link (font size)

I don't see how anyone could mistake it like this.

I suspect that DarkPhoenix, like myself, looked at the box and saw a combo for selecting a language and a button marked "download" and beneath that what appears to be a caption saying that it is to download Visual Basic 2010 Beta 2.

If you press the Download button and save/open the resulting file and run it then it will become obvious that it is VS2008, but just by looking at what is shown on screen there is no visual indication that the VS2010 Beta text is a hyperlink.

If you look at the box below the VB one (Visual Web Developer) there is text in the same style saying "using Microsoft Web Platform Installer". This isn't a hyperlink, its a description of what happens if you use the Download button above.

If you've done any web design you'll know that its rank bad practice.

[chris128]

I can easily see how someone could mistake it... it just looks like the text that mentions VS2010 is describing the entire download. To make it clearer it should say something like "If you would like to download the latest VS2010 BETA instead, click here"

[DarkPhoenix]

Huh? I don't follow what you mean there.


Oh.. Er.. Perhaps I was mistaken. I was under the impression that Visual C# and Visual C++ were just visual representations of code and you could either use the visual representation OR the code itself to do the work.

I was thinking that If I could study the code for the visual representation that would help me to understand what I am looking at or trying to learn.

Also I thought perhaps I could work backwards.. do the code for webkit in Visual c++ ( since it's easier because it's visual) then copy the real code from the visual representations into webkit.. then tweak what I need to make it work...if you follow..

But perhaps that is not how it really works. I suppose I was making assumptions. LOL Well.. I am sure I will find out!

Oh and about mistaking the VB Studio Express Edition download - yes.. that's is exactly how I was able to mistake it.

Now I will know and everyone else will too. Thanks folks.

Oh and.. I was thinking of using WebKit because it's open source But I do not have to use it if I knew of some other browser engines that were more compatible with Visual Basic that I could use instead.. (free or open source)

If anyone has any ideas on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Perhaps I should start a new thread just to ask that question specifically.

[chris128]

The "Visual" in "Visual C++" simply means that you can create applications that have a visual user interface rather than only having text based input.

[keystone_paul]

But I do not have to use it if I knew of some other browser engines that were more compatible with Visual Basic that I could use instead.. (free or open source)

Well the thing is, there is a webbrowser control that ships with VB.. and I'm still not sure why you don't want to use that one. Unless you are really serious about changing fundamental stuff (which as a newbie I'd suggest is probably beyond what you can realistically achieve at this point) you can use the webbrowser control provided and provide a totally customised environment around it.

[chris128]

Note though that the WebBrowser control in VB is just using Internet Explorer's engine.

[keystone_paul]

Note though that the WebBrowser control in VB is just using Internet Explorer's engine.

Yep - unfortunately we've got a bit cross-threaded here as the OP has another post on the board talking about using an open source web-browser (WebKit) instead of the built in web-browser because he didn't just want to write a shell around IE.

I'm just trying to understand what the objection is to using IE because if you just take a compiled version of an open source browser, you are still effectively putting a shell around another browser.

99% of people wanting web-browser functionality just use the built-in webbrowser component and put their own UI around it so presumably the OP has some burning reason for not doing that. I can understand taking the source-code of another browser as that allows a lot more customisation, but it is also a lot more involved for a newbie!

[DarkPhoenix]

I do plan on designing the web browser with visual basic, but if I distribute it, only people with Windows PC's can use it. I would like it to have something that will be cross platform. ( I am under the impression the engine does not ship with the shell I make but uses the IE engine already installed on the persons hard drive)

That was a large appeal for using WebKit... too bad webkit is not visual basic friendly.

There was for a short time a version of webkit called webkit32 that was made to work with visual basic 2005. The Swift browser used it. Well the Swift browser did not get off the ground but you can still download and test it's beta.

I cannot find webkit32 anyplace nor do I know how well it would work with VB 2008 express.

Both Safari and Google Chrome use Webkit in their Windows version browsers.. I suppose they did the work in C++.

Oh and no worries Paul, I have no illusions that I am going to be able to do and learn all of this overnight. I am just getting all my ducks in a row. By the time I am ready to make a cross platform version I won't be a newbie anymore.. hopefully. LOL

[keystone_paul]

I do plan on designing the web browser with visual basic, but if I distribute it, only people with Windows PC's can use it.

You do realise that .Net (and hence VB) is strictly speaking only for Windows? You can use Mono to run .Net applications on some other platforms but it is not 100% compatible with all aspects of the .Net framework.

If you truly want cross-platform compatibility you may be better off writing it in Java or some other language.

[DarkPhoenix]

You do realise that .Net (and hence VB) is strictly speaking only for Windows? You can use Mono to run .Net applications on some other platforms but it is not 100% compatible with all aspects of the .Net framework.

If you truly want cross-platform compatibility you may be better off writing it in Java or some other language.

Er.. your right.. I was thinking if I wasn't going to use the IE engine it wouldn't matter thinking that .Net only had to do with the engine workings and not the shell.. but thats not the case is it.. .Net is part of/built into the VB tool even for the shell.

I suppose that's why webkit32 used 2005 - Pre-Net . EDIT: Just found out 2005 used .Net also.. Hmm then they must have gotten around this somehow. I am getting my info from here: http://webkit.org/building/tools.html - On this site they aren't calling it webkit32 just webkit, but they do tell you how to build webkit for use with VB 2005.

I would have to use VB 2005 then. Darn. Well.. Umm.. How is the graphics and functionality of the stuff you can make with VB 2005? Is it nice enough as to not bug me appearance wise if I went that route? ( you know.. I wanted to use VB 2008 for the slickest app with the most functionality I could make.) Hmm would it even be compatible with Vista and Win 7? ( I use win 7 Ultimate 64 bit)

[keystone_paul]

I think there's a degree of confusion here and its making me feel very old!... VB has used .Net in all versions post VB6 (the first version of .Net was officially launched in 2002).

VB2005 and VB2008 are largely identical in terms of user interface components - most of the changes are behind the scenes, such as the introduction of LINQ, Generic Types etc. There is no barrier to producing Vista and Windows 7 compatible code in VB 2005

Now as for cross platform, there are two (or more) separate codebases for WebKit - not one single cross-platform version. If you want to write code that will run on Linux/OSX and Windows you will probably struggle with .Net. It is possible using Mono, however Mono isn't a full implementation of .Net, and its entirely possible that WebKit won't run on Mono, although as the .Net version is using VC++ 2005 not 2008 it probably will.

I have to go back again to the same point though - if you are a newbie to .Net then writing a cross-platform web browser is a very ambitious starting point.

[DarkPhoenix]

Thank again Paul, sorry for making you feel old.. if its any consolation.. I'm in my 40's and am kicking myself for not trying to learn VB years ago.

Good to know about VB 2005.. I just found a copy of VB Studio Express 2005 for download if I need it.

I think I may have found a solution to my problem. It's called GeckoFX.

I Quote: http://code.google.com/p/geckofx/wiki/GettingStarted

"GeckoFX is a .NET wrapper around XULRunner, a runtime based on the same source code as Firefox. You can add the control to your windows forms app and use it much the same way as System.Windows.Forms.WebBrowser. "

And here: http://code.google.com/p/geckofx/

"GeckoFX is a Windows Forms control written in clean, commented C# that embeds the Mozilla Gecko browser control in any Windows Forms Application. It also contains a simple class model providing access to the HTML and CSS DOM."

You may want to check it out for yourself.. it seems really neat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It looks like it would not make my project have its own engine I don't think, but may work just like my shell would with IE.. Use the FireFox engine that's already installed on the system.. I am still getting clarification on this.

Or because the XULRunner is based on Firefox 3's Gecko engine.. it may be the actual engine itself.

Edit: Yeah, just confirmed.. as long as you package XULRunner in the setup it works as it's own Gecko engine. Too Cool.

Either way, if I can make it work, I could offer a version for IE and a version for people who prefer Firefox. That would make me happy till I can solve the cross platform problem.

If my designs and ideas for this browser are good enough, who knows.. perhaps I could attract C++ coders to help make webkit work (grin)

It's kinda like a slap in the face though.. running Firefox's engine with a browser shell designed in Microsoft Visual Basic. It's a good thing Bill is still alive or he may be turning over in his grave.

[Hack]

Moved To General Developer

[JuggaloBrotha]

Thank again Paul, sorry for making you feel old.. if its any consolation.. I'm in my 40's and am kicking myself for not trying to learn VB years ago.

Good to know about VB 2005.. I just found a copy of VB Studio Express 2005 for download if I need it.

I think I may have found a solution to my problem. It's called GeckoFX.

I Quote: http://code.google.com/p/geckofx/wiki/GettingStarted

"GeckoFX is a .NET wrapper around XULRunner, a runtime based on the same source code as Firefox. You can add the control to your windows forms app and use it much the same way as System.Windows.Forms.WebBrowser. "

And here: http://code.google.com/p/geckofx/

"GeckoFX is a Windows Forms control written in clean, commented C# that embeds the Mozilla Gecko browser control in any Windows Forms Application. It also contains a simple class model providing access to the HTML and CSS DOM."

You may want to check it out for yourself.. it seems really neat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It looks like it would not make my project have its own engine I don't think, but may work just like my shell would with IE.. Use the FireFox engine that's already installed on the system.. I am still getting clarification on this.

Or because the XULRunner is based on Firefox 3's Gecko engine.. it may be the actual engine itself.

Edit: Yeah, just confirmed.. as long as you package XULRunner in the setup it works as it's own Gecko engine. Too Cool.

Either way, if I can make it work, I could offer a version for IE and a version for people who prefer Firefox. That would make me happy till I can solve the cross platform problem.

If my designs and ideas for this browser are good enough, who knows.. perhaps I could attract C++ coders to help make webkit work (grin)

It's kinda like a slap in the face though.. running Firefox's engine with a browser shell designed in Microsoft Visual Basic. It's a good thing Bill is still alive or he may be turning over in his grave.If you're designing everything but the browser component in Vb.Net, you do realize that it'll only run on Windows, right?

The Mono framework (.Net for Linux and Mac) only supports Mono C# right now, last I heard they have no plans to support vb.net. I've also read blogs over the years where c# applications written in VS on a windows computer doesn't run half the time on the Mono framework, but all Mono C# developed apps run fine on Mono and .Net, I never did find out why and I don't know if this has ever been fixed or not either.

[DarkPhoenix]

If you're designing everything but the browser component in Vb.Net, you do realize that it'll only run on Windows, right?

The Mono framework (.Net for Linux and Mac) only supports Mono C# right now, last I heard they have no plans to support vb.net. I've also read blogs over the years where c# applications written in VS on a windows computer doesn't run half the time on the Mono framework, but all Mono C# developed apps run fine on Mono and .Net, I never did find out why and I don't know if this has ever been fixed or not either.


Yes I do realize this. This isn't exactly what I had in mind for cross platform, no.. but at least it's something better than no other option at all. The idea was to make an app with VB that I could get to as many different types of people as possible. Catering to IE lovers and Firefox lovers alike is a start.

There's that.. and I really wanted it to have it's own engine.

This will keep me busy for a while and I will worry about cross platform when the time comes.

Oh and I also realize that I would have to redo the shell in another language.. But at least by this time I will have experience working with the browser engine.

It seems I have another option too.. Now there is WebKit.Net - a new version of webKit that's easy to work with Visual Basic. - http://webkitdotnet.sourceforge.net/index.php

[Shaggy Hiker]

I will add one thing that might clear up some of the version confusion in this thread:

For the first several versions of .NET, each version targeted a single framework version:
2002-Framework 1.0
2003-Framework 1.1
2005-Framework 2.0

The versions built on each other, but if you did things just right, you couldn't easily work on a Framework 1.1 app in 2005, and you couldn't do it at all without importing and conversion. That changed (mostly) with 2008. In 2008, you can target frameworks 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5. Therefore, you can still work on a framework 2.0 program in 2008, which means that there is never a need to have 2005 if you have 2008.

[DarkPhoenix]

I will add one thing that might clear up some of the version confusion in this thread:

The versions built on each other, but if you did things just right, you couldn't easily work on a Framework 1.1 app in 2005, and you couldn't do it at all without importing and conversion. That changed (mostly) with 2008. In 2008, you can target frameworks 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5. Therefore, you can still work on a framework 2.0 program in 2008, which means that there is never a need to have 2005 if you have 2008.

Thanks.. Good to know because a lot of the things I find I wanna do have instructions for VB 2005.