A question to developers

[MoE70]

Hi

I want to ask about how you've become a developer

Im 22 and on my second year of university (college) doing computer science. I've studies introduction to Java in my first year, but we don't learn programming in participial we have all sorts of different computing modules. And even 3rd year doesn't seem to have much programming, only introduction to c++. So how does one become a developer if the school doesn't teach you these languages.


Do you just learn it from work after you finish university? do you have to start learning it by your self? is that what you have to do in order to be a developer?

Can you share your experience getting to your position as a developer.


Thanks in advance

[techgnome]

I think it's fairly safe to assume everyone's experiences are different.

I never went to university... all of my knowledge has come from reading books, articles, magazines, experimentation, conferences, and learning what I need to learn to get the job done. The closest to any schooling for programing I've come to was my tech training in the Air Force... which taught me several languages that I've never used again (Ada, Assembler, COBOL) but it did give me some fundamentals that I've been able to apply to my work time and time again.

Soak up those principles and fundamentals they are teaching you now. Learn to use them to apply to multiple languages. You've had some exposure to Java and C++ .. but your question seems to indicate that you want to learn more languages than just those two. It's probably still early yet, but you might want to think about what kind of programing you want to do at your job when you are done with your studies. Let that drive the language... Or, you can simply just pick one, start working on it, when you've got the basics, move on to the next and just pick things up one by one.

At some point, I would definitely suggest getting some database/SQL training/experience too.

-tg

[Jenner]

I'm a Mechanical Engineer by degree. Programming and computers is just something I've been interested in since I got my first Commodore 64. Everything I know is 100% self-taught.

I got into professional software development because I convinced my boss that I could write a few quick programs to simplify certain things around the office. These were such a hit, I was quickly known as "that Engineer who can write programs". Then oppurtunity knocked. We purchased a second company that made machines that had a software component. The software really stunk and was poorly maintained. I volunteered to rewrite it from scratch.

Boom, I'm now a commercial developer. My programming is being sold to customers. If I want, I can list it as a specific example and accomplishment on my resume if I'm looking for an actual "programmers" position at another company.

The lesson is, I always had interest, and I always knew enough about a few certain languages to be competent. Whenever new technology came out that seemed interesting like the .NET platform, I decided to play around with it and when opportunity came to apply that interest, I pushed a bit to open those doors for me.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Just to continue the trend: I'm a biologist with a masters in Zoology. I've never had a course in computers of any sort other than a pair of one day sessions in Excel where I spent most of the time otherwise occupied. I got interested in programming on a TRS-80 Level 1 back in HS. I didn't do much with it until after I was out of grad school and started working. Since then, I learned by experience, and am now paid as a programmer rather than a biologist, though I still work on programs concerning fish data.

[JuggaloBrotha]

I'm still working towards my bachelor's degree, but for me to get my associates I had to learn a limited amount of QBasic, vb6, vb.net, some c# and some java. To get my bachelors I need to take the advanced Java, advanced vb.net and advanced c# classes. I guess your degree track isn't one to become a developer whereas my degree track is basically all math, programming languages and database classes (very little speech and writing classes).

[penagate]

The problem with most university courses is that they don't teach programming. Instead, they teach a little bit of computer science; a little bit of mathematics; a little bit of Java; a little bit of Unix.

techgnome is completely right: Concentrate on the fundamentals of programming. Languages and environments come and go but the principles are always the same.

Use as many different languages as you can and you'll spot the similarities and the core concepts underlying each. You can then apply this learning to any new language you might want to pick up. That's what separates the developers from the coders.

[MoE70]

Thanks everyone.

It seems like I got to get a few books and pick up some languages myself

[ntg]

I've had Computer Science training as well (college, 4 years) though it's been several years ago. The package had an incredible amount of math (6 courses), a lot of theory and relatively few programming courses. I was exposed to Assembly, Pascal, C, C++ and Lisp.

Looking back I think that the actual programming courses were of the least importance. For me theory and fundamentals were the things that laid out a solid foundation of knowledge. We were expected to demonstrate a practical understanding of various topics like data structures, OOP, compilers and operating systems but we could do it using any language we prefered. For example I completed my thesis on complex numbers and fractals using Pascal, a language I was very fond of back then.

The important thing once you finish college is to have a solid theoretical background and know how to find answers for yourself. Then you can build up your programming skills as you go. Today it may be Java and C# but tomorrow it will definitely be something else. If you can grasp fundamentals, it won't make a difference and you'll be able to learn new things and keep up.

[mendhak]

It's been my hobby since I was 5. Self taught by way of experimentation, tutorials and learning from people at work.

I think the underlying point is that you need to take the time out to use it. At some point, you should become sufficiently moldy... I mean molded to logically think and work as a programmer. Then you're ready.

I've been told that uni is a waste of time.

[RobDog888]

You can not get all your learning from School. You need to absorb it and learn as much as you can from every single source you have available to you. Also while on the job you will continue to learn and learn from experience and doing. Work experience is very valuable as its usually the stuff you can not learn from books. Oh and persistence and hard work is the key to success.

[Siddharth Rout]

Now, Now, don't get me started...

I agree with tg, mendhak, Rob and others who emphasize on Self Learning.

I am not a developer or a programmer though sometimes I do pick up assignments as a freelancer. I am more from the 'Operations' Field. I knew little basics of vb6 but whatever I know today (Which is a lot as compared to what I knew before 2005) is because I self taught myself. The main contributor towards this of course is VB Forums (I practically live here now ) and trust me every day here is a learning for me...

I am sure Rob can vouch for this... He has seen me practically grow in VBF

[dilettante]

Though I also have a formal Computer Science background I have never had a job that used the same computing platform or programming languages we used in school.

In every case the job required OJT, which for the most part was access to the computer and the vendor's reference manuals. Along the way I was offered vendor training here and there, mostly in the form of 4 to 5 day classroom training. In no case was this ever training in a programming language, which was typically just assumed as a prerequisite.

I believe success is determined by your ability to read and comprehend written material and then follow this up with creative experimentation. This primarily means reading manuals, but it also requires reading code written by others.

The nature of some questions in programming forums sometimes makes me feel despair. So many of these questions would never be asked if the poster had ever read through the manual. One can only wonder if they try driving long trips without looking over maps first too. They must find unanticipated detours somewhat frightening.

[techgnome]

I believe success is determined by your ability to read and comprehend written material and then follow this up with creative experimentation. This primarily means reading manuals, but it also requires reading code written by others.

I totally agree. Adding to that going to conferences if/when you can, as well as reading through development magazines. I don't always use or learn everything I come across. But once in a while, I have those moments where I go "Wait, I just read something about...." and then I go through my stack and find what I was looking for. There's a quote I once heard that has stuck with me through the years, and it's been fairly accurate. It goes something like this: A good programmer will know a little about everything. A great programmer will know a lot about a few things. But the best programmer will know where and when to look things up.

The nature of some questions in programming forums sometimes makes me feel despair. So many of these questions would never be asked if the poster had ever read through the manual. One can only wonder if they try driving long trips without looking over maps first too. They must find unanticipated detours somewhat frightening.

I can just see those postings now: Halp! I took the highway and hit a sign that said Road Closed. I don't know what to do. Some one gimmie tirp plz!!!!!! 111111s"
These are the same people that drive their cars off a cliff because they were blindly following their GPS.

-tg

[dilettante]

I can just see those postings now: Halp! I took the highway and hit a sign that said Road Closed. I don't know what to do. Some one gimmie tirp plz!!!!!! 111111s"
These are the same people that drive their cars off a cliff because they were blindly following their GPS.

-tg

The driving off a cliff is hilarious.

I worry more about the ones who follow three or four detour signs and suddenly can't find anymore signs, don't know where they are, and can't figure out where they need to turn. Then they'd better hope their GPS-nav maps are up to date - and know where to take them through that cow pasture they ended up in.

[techgnome]

I hear that. That's why when ever I get directions off of Google or MapQuest, or where ever, I also make sure I get a map of the surrounding areas around my planned route. That way if I miss an exit, or get re-routed, I can still usually find my way to where I need to go. Plus there have been times when I've found a more efficient route than what was given.

-tg

[FunkyDexter]

I've been told that uni is a waste of time.

I think I'd disagree with that. Work experience has taught me waaaay more about how to use specific languages and their features but my degree taught me how to aproach the problem. It's where I got all my designy type stuff from and that's been invaluable to me. A structured aproach tends to be the last thing someone chooses to learn of their own acccord while it's the first thing and decent college/university will teach. Personally I think a blend is ideal, a bit like coffee (but not whisky, definitely not whisky).

That's why when ever I get directions off of Google or MapQuest, or where ever, I also make sure I get a map of the surrounding areas around my planned route

pfft, woos! I bet you read the instructions for flat pack furniture too, don't you, girly man?

[Shaggy Hiker]

I think I'd disagree with that. Work experience has taught me waaaay more about how to use specific languages and their features but my degree taught me how to aproach the problem. It's where I got all my designy type stuff from and that's been invaluable to me.

I saw that picture of your burger, which CLEARLY had serious design defficiencies.

By the way, what you call uni may have a value that is being overlooked. By your second job, nobody gives a rats behind where you got a degree, but LOTS of places care that you HAVE a degree.

[FunkyDexter]

I'd like to point out that I was not the burger provider but rather the end user. I personally think the problem was that it was horrendously over-specced. I also needed to make heavy use of the after sales support, i.e. the nearest bench.

but LOTS of places care that you HAVE a degree.

Is that a common experience others are having? I remember before I got into programming there was a definite glass ceiling I couldn't break through without a degree. Since I moved into programming I don't think anyone's actually cared about it except for my first job. I've kinda assumed that, while other career paths may still go looking for a degree, Programming jobs tend to only care about experience and ability. The funny thing is, most of the career paths that do want a degree don't actually seem to care what it's in.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'd like to point out that I was not the burger provider but rather the end user. I personally think the problem was that it was horrendously over-specced. I also needed to make heavy use of the after sales support, i.e. the nearest bench.

That burger was designed by committee.

Is that a common experience others are having? I remember before I got into programming there was a definite glass ceiling I couldn't break through without a degree. Since I moved into programming I don't think anyone's actually cared about it except for my first job. I've kinda assumed that, while other career paths may still go looking for a degree, Programming jobs tend to only care about experience and ability. The funny thing is, most of the career paths that do want a degree don't actually seem to care what it's in.

Now that you mention it, I think I was sort of wrong with my previous statement. Where I work, and all other related businesses (biology), do care about degrees, and I wouldn't have been hired without an MS. However, I am now officially a programmer, though I have taken 0 courses in the subject. I had not tried for one of those jobs in the past because I couldn't even begin to meet the minimum requirements to even be considered, especially the position we hired to take over maintenance of the program I had written Basically, I was officially unqualified to do what I had done. I was able to change jobs only when the requirements for the position were written in such a way that my lack of education in programming was overlooked in favor of experience, which I could demonstrate extensively, since my apps were used in many areas by then.

So in my situation, whether or not you need a degree for a programming job had more to do with how the specs were written than any perceived need.

[FunkyDexter]

That burger was designed by committee.

And condemned by the council

[DeanMc]

Can I just add to this though, I have recently been seeking employment and every employer came back with the same thing, great CV, impressive samples, comeback when you have a formal education.

[techgnome]

bottom line: a degree is only as valuable as the potential employer wants it to be. I've seen some places that won't even get you past HR w/o a degree (experience or not). Other places that don't care. I'm fortunate enough to have stumbled down a career path where not having a degree was a hindrance. And I'm now at that point where a degree would be useless to me. But I got lucky.

-tg

[DeanMc]

I agree, at it seems that the only reason for this change is A: Its an employers market and B: There are more hobbyists now than ever before and it can be hard to gauge their skills.

[oceanebelle]

When I finished highschool, opportunities sprang for enrolling in any science and technology related course via a grant. The closest course I could relate to was computer science because I thought back then that programming will be as easy as turning on computer pixels one bye one as was my highschool training on Basic.

When I eventually started Uni, I was shocked because my schooling was obviously very outdated, even Maths. I didn't know what Internet and Yahoo and Email was at that time. So obviously I started with clean slate while my classmates knew half of the stuff already from Maths, Visual Basic programming, etc.

However that didn't stop me from learning everything even if I had to do more work. I say Uni is a very good place to get you acquainted and prepared in real life if ever you choose a profession the same as what you studied for. 5 years on after completing my Uni course, I've done several different programming projects and I still turn to what I learned back then and apply it to my work as well as learn far more.

My uni teachers used to tell us that what they are teaching is nothing but a very small portion of what is IT and it is up to us to develop our skills further. So after graduation, work opportunities could steer you to the right direction or you can take a much more aggresssive stand and do lots of self study and proving yourself to bosses.