[Not So RESOLVED] Windows 7 Ultimate experience

[Shaggy Hiker]

I installed Windows 7 Ultimate about a week back on a new computer with a quad core processor, 4GB RAM, and some pretty high end components. This may be the first time that I have ever been an early adopter of anything out of MS, and I approached it with some trepedation, but I saw no point in using Vista with Windows 7 poised to replace it almost immediately. My alternative position was XP, but that would mean that I would be dwelling in the past, yelling at the neighborhood kids to get off of my lawn, and shaking a cane at people. I didn't want to go there, because I don't actually have a cane, so I would have had to buy one, first, and I had spent enough money on the computer, by then.

At first, W7 looked great. Then I replaced my number 1 computer with the new computer...and it wouldn't boot at all. After a bit of study, I determined that the USB ports on my monitor were confusing the BIOS somehow. Since those ports had never actually been used, the solution to the problem was quite simple. After that, W7 booted nicely, set up a network nicely, updated video and OS software nicely...then failed to boot a second time and undid all that work, including the updated video driver.

On the third try (the first worked, the second failed), I updated the video driver again, re-created the network (which was so easy I couldn't believe it and spent time trying to make it harder...seriously), and loaded a few other things. Then I got down to playing games. It occurs to me that I don't believe I have successfully closed any games at this point, other than simple things like Hearts and Minesweeper. The other games I have played have all been closed for me, generally at the cost of locking up the computer so solid that only the power button could get me out of them. I suspect that this has to do with running games that were not intended to work in a system quite as dynamic as W7. In one case, it appears that a message from Windows Updater killed Doom3, and any background message popped up by the OS would certainly kill Oblivion, as that game has always played poorly with others.

On the other hand, I'm getting updates almost daily. The OS loads nicely, looks great, and has some neat cosmetic features to it. However, it does appear to be like all other MS products: It will be pretty good once the first service pack has been released. XP wasn't all that stable early on, but is quite stable now. Seven appears to be the same way.

[Shaggy Hiker]

A bit more testing, and I finally have a question:

Should I stick with 7, or drop back to XP. The reason is simple: Games. While my testing has not yet been very thorough, the extent of failure is getting bothersome. I'd be deluding myself if I said that the primary purpose for this new computer was programming, though there will be plenty of that. The other uses would be e-mail/VBF, and games. The first of those uses works fine, but the second....well, not so much. I've had the system freeze to the point where I had to pull the plug to recover every time I have run Doom3, and one other game (though the N in that case is only 1).

If the vast majority of the current game base is for XP....should I stay with 7?

[chris128]

To be honest I would not have even considered getting Windows 7 yet if your primary use will be for games

[Max Peck]

Hmm ... interesting. I've been running W7 for about a month-and-a-half now and haven't run into anything like this. I'm not a heavy gamer, but I do run FSX and SimCity which are both pretty graphics-intensive and both run fine.

As for overall stability, I've found W7 to be solid-as-a-rock. The only issue I've recently had was a crash associated with a printer that seems to have failed. It was working all right, though a little bit flaky - then it wouldn't even let my system get past POST. No way that could have been W7 - it killed the system before bootstrap. Replacing the failing printer cleared the problem up completely.

Having said all that, however; if the primary use of your machine is the aforementioned games and you can't run it in a compatibility mode under W7 (or Vista) then you seem to have no choice but to stick with XP for awhile longer.

-Max :D

[Jenner]

Doesn't Windows 7 have some kinda virtualized XP kernel specifically for that purpose (http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/04/24/secret-no-more-revealing-virtual-windows-xp-for-windows-7.aspx)?

EDIT: Nevermind, found a second article (http://pcworld.co.nz/pcworld/pcw.nsf/feature/A58737C36E8E4777CC25763C00024AF4) that says 3D isn't supported in the virtualized XP compatibility mode and it's not the best performer for games in general.

I'm actually considering doing a menuless dual-boot on my machine when I get Win7. Have Win7 launch by default, but if I got some games that hate it, reboot, choose to boot off a second drive and boot into XP.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I have the hardware for dual boot, but have never even tried it. I certainly have a spare HD sitting in that system, and it will likely remain unused for a long time. I also have a couple copies of XP lying around. What does it take to set up dual boot?

[DeanMc]

I have to say I love 7. Everything is so easy that im now concern that my OS is playing trick with me. Granted I have come across one or two quirks but given its early stage I cant fault it and to be honest most of the quirks I've had where dodgy hardware drivers.

[LaVolpe]

I have the hardware for dual boot, but have never even tried it. I certainly have a spare HD sitting in that system, and it will likely remain unused for a long time. I also have a couple copies of XP lying around. What does it take to set up dual boot?Googling "Dual Boot Windows 7" returned this link (http://www.techspot.com/guides/143-dual-boot-windows7/). You may want to look at some others too.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, I'm on top of it. That's clearly the right way to go.

[JessicaD]

Shaggy,

Thank you for your support of Windows 7! Have you pre-ordered your copy of Win 7 yet? If you are planning on purchasing Windows 7 when it is released it may be helpful to know you don't have to wait until October to reserve your copy of Win 7! You can pre-order your copy of Windows 7 Home Premium or Windows 7 Professional today. For more information, see the Windows 7 Pre-Order offer page here: http://tinyurl.com/nldc8p

Also, if you are currently a student you may qualify for the $30 upgrade to Windows 7. For more information, please go here: http://tinyurl.com/m7nyxa

Jessica
Microsoft Windows Client Team

[dilettante]

Optional "XP mode" in Windows 7 is probably going to disappoint a lot of people. It seems obvious that the target is business users trying to keep old applications running under Win7, rather than any sort of gamers.

It will take time for games to be developed and redeveloped for Vista/7, and in the meantime we have XP fading into the rear view mirror. My guess would be that Microsoft's answer to gamers is to buy an Xbox instead.

[Nightwalker83]

It will take time for games to be developed and redeveloped for Vista/7, and in the meantime we have XP fading into the rear view mirror. My guess would be that Microsoft's answer to gamers is to buy an Xbox instead.

Hang on, where does Vista come into this? Vista has backward compatibility support for easy operating systems if the games need it. Also I've seen a lot of games mention they can run on Vista.

[JuggaloBrotha]

It's not so much games being compatable with Vista/Win7 as it is you running games on 64Bit Vista/Win7, the games run fine on 32Bit already.

That's my thoughts anyways.

I'm also hitting a brick wall too, I need to be able to run VM's in Win7 x64 and VPC 2007 SP1 doesn't work and my cpu doesn't support hardware VM's so the built in Win7 one is out of the picture, I'd really like to run Win7 x64 on my dual core 4ghz development comp at home instead of XP.

Anyone have any suggestions for being able to run my win98se, winME, win2k, Winxp, Vista x86 VPC VMs in Win7 x64?

[Jenner]

If a game can run on Vista, it shouldn't have any trouble running on Windows 7. The driver model is compatible, if not identical to Vista from what I understand; and the DirectX10 API isn't changing. :)

@JessicaD, glad to see some more Microsoft reps hitting these forums. :) I've already got two copies of Windows 7 coming to me; one via Dell via a laptop I bought last month that has it coming as a free upgrade and one for my development machine via a Microsoft New Efficiency tech briefing I'm attending in a few weeks.

I must admit, I'm impressed at Windows 7's technology.

@Shaggy, Yea, for the avid gamer, when you get to these OS crossover points, dual-boot is the only way to go. I did the same thing back when I do the move from Win98 to XP. I just had too many games I played that wouldn't even install on XP, let alone run. Things that needed a DOS extender to run for example. I kinda wish I still kept that 98/XP box but like most machines I've owned, it slowly transformed into a pure XP machine, and now, I doubt I'd be able to find Win98 drivers for the hardware inside it. I should learn to hold onto my older hardware and build retro machines rather than give it off to my friends, because there are some games I'd love to play again that are too advanced for DosBOX and too primitive for XP and modern hardware. Stuff made in that early 2000's band.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Shaggy,

Thank you for your support of Windows 7! Have you pre-ordered your copy of Win 7 yet? If you are planning on purchasing Windows 7 when it is released it may be helpful to know you don't have to wait until October to reserve your copy of Win 7! You can pre-order your copy of Windows 7 Home Premium or Windows 7 Professional today. For more information, see the Windows 7 Pre-Order offer page here: http://tinyurl.com/nldc8p

Also, if you are currently a student you may qualify for the $30 upgrade to Windows 7. For more information, please go here: http://tinyurl.com/m7nyxa

Jessica
Microsoft Windows Client Team

It's an add, but not a terrible one. Funny, though, as most people on here probably have Windows 7 the same way I do: MSDN Subscription. Long before the company starts putting it on all new systems, I had best know that my programs will run fine on it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

There exists many sites for dual booting an XP/Win 7 box starting from an installed XP. For adding XP to a Win 7 system....not so much. I am close, but not as close as I would have hoped after a few hours last night.

[Jenner]

Ok, I assume you got your Windows 7 installation on the primary partition of your primary drive. Do you have a second drive? If so, disconnect the Windows 7 drive, and install XP on that one. Then, when done, hook the Windows 7 drive back up.

By default, your system should boot to Windows 7. To switch to XP, if your BIOS has a "Boot Menu" option, hit it at start-up (Press F12 for boot menu) and select the XP drive and it'll boot XP from that one.

[Shaggy Hiker]

There may be a better option, which I am pursuing. Right now, when I start the computer, it offers me Windows 7 and XP, but the XP doesn't actually boot. If I try to use it is says that the OS is damaged, or something like that. I think I know the reason why, and I think I know the solution, I just failed to quite get there yesterday, and will try again this evening.

[JuggaloBrotha]

Ok, I assume you got your Windows 7 installation on the primary partition of your primary drive. Do you have a second drive? If so, disconnect the Windows 7 drive, and install XP on that one. Then, when done, hook the Windows 7 drive back up.

By default, your system should boot to Windows 7. To switch to XP, if your BIOS has a "Boot Menu" option, hit it at start-up (Press F12 for boot menu) and select the XP drive and it'll boot XP from that one.That seems like an aweful lot of work considering Win2k & XP (I hope Vista and Win7 too) comes with a bootloader. Couldn't you install XP on one drive/partition and install Win7 x64 on another drive/partition and use the Win7 (if it exists) bootloader to pick the XP OS within 15 seconds, otherwise it'll boot into Win7 (unless you have XP be the default in the bootloader)?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, that's where I'm headed, but there has to be a couple files related to the bootloader on the XP drive...I think....because of some issue between those two.

[si_the_geek]

Vista onwards have a different kind of boot loader - so if you are using the same hard-drive to boot from, you must install XP/earlier before Vista/7 (because XP doesn't know about it, so can't work around it).

I don't know about 7 (yet), but having having XP+Vista like that causes problems - because XP overwrites the System Restore files etc. You can fix it, but it isn't entirely reliable (and you probably won't know it fails until it is too late to fix it).

If you have the option, go for Jenner's suggestion - install them on to separate physical drives, and use the BIOS boot menu to pick which one to boot in to.

[JuggaloBrotha]

I don't know about 7 (yet), but having having XP+Vista like that causes problems - because XP overwrites the System Restore files etc. You can fix it, but it isn't entirely reliable (and you probably won't know it fails until it is too late to fix it).Unless they're on two different partitions on the same drive, or two different drives entirely.

I just don't see using the BIOS for boot loading is very efficient when these OS's come with a bootloader (the whole point) as it is, heck I even dual boot XP and Ubuntu using the bootloader, very efficient and easy (and XP's the default OS in the grub loader).

[si_the_geek]

The issue with XP is not based on drive/partition - mine are on separate partitions on the same drive, and I had the problem (as have many others, which is how I found the solution).

Using the BIOS boot menu rather than the Windows equivalent just means 1 extra key press when booting the non-default drive, which is hardly a big deal.

[Jenner]

One benefit of doing it the way I do it, is at any time you can yank the drive out or just blow away the OS on the other drive and there's no reconfiguring anything. Bored with Windows XP? Just load into Windows 7 like normal and delete the D:\Windows off that other drive. Never worry about it again. No reconfiguring bootloaders, nothing.

And if the drive with XP, perhaps being an older drive suddenly ups and dies, no big deal either (unless you lost your Diablo 2 characters that you invested 592,502,863.6 hours into. :D )

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ok, those are some really good points, and I feel that I am being persuaded in the direction of just installing XP on the second drive.

Both drives are identical in age and whatnot.

So let me ask a further question: If I go with XP on one drive and Windows 7 on the other drive, and I install a program under Windows 7, to have it show up in the Start menu for XP, I'd have to add it manually, wouldn't I? That's not an issue, I just want to know what hoops I will need to jump through for programs that can run under either.

Edit: By the way, I was aware of the restore point issue, and there are some workarounds for it, but they are not 100%. I'm just not sure which will impact me more.

[si_the_geek]

If I go with XP on one drive and Windows 7 on the other drive, and I install a program under Windows 7, to have it show up in the Start menu for XP, I'd have to add it manually, wouldn't I?Yes, and if the program needs to be installed you will actually need to install it on both.

Edit: By the way, I was aware of the restore point issue, and there are some workarounds for it, but they are not 100%. I'm just not sure which will impact me more.The simplest solution is to disable the Win7 drive in XP's device manager - and from what I've read it is the safest too.

The only issue is that you need to keep any shared files on the XP drive or any others except the Win7 drive).

[Shaggy Hiker]

That's sounding less promising....or maybe not. Now that I think about it, the only programs that I would be using under XP would be the games that don't play well with Windows 7. Therefore, those would only need to be installed a single time on the XP system, and could be ignored by the Windows 7 system.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ok, the frustration level has gotten to the point that I am considering just switching back to XP. That would actually be pretty easy.

As it turns out, there is no F12 option in this version of the BIOS I am running on this new motherboard. Therefore, I decided to check for updates. The disc with the BIOS update utilities that came with the computer won't even run on 7. After a bit of hunting, I found the new utility online from ASUS...and it doesn't run on 7, either. I got it downloaded and installed, but it just fails. So, not only do I not have F12 as an option, I also can't do any updates under 7.

The next step was to go look around in the BIOS for the boot options. Inside the BIOS, I can set which drive is the primary boot drive, which is nice, but considerably more than a single key press. However, this means that I can just leave 7 on the other HD and boot from the XP drive, while leaving it that way until 7 has matured enough that groups like ASUS get their acts together. At that point, I can switch the primary boot back to the drive with 7, get the updates, and decide what to do then.

[LaVolpe]

Like si_the_geek, my Vista and Xp are on different partitions, same drive. I have to select which I want to run during boot before the timer/default option is selected.

Regarding VMs, glad you brought that up. I don't own Win7. However, my Win95-Win2K VMs are installed from XP. This does mean that when I want to play with Win95-XP, I must boot to XP and to play with Vista, I'll have to boot to Vista. When the time comes and I do get Win7, I'll have to address these issues too. I really don't want a tri-boot system and don't want to reinstall all the VMs (especially since updating some of them may be nearly impossible now; getting IE5 for Win95 was a challenge).

[JuggaloBrotha]

Like si_the_geek, my Vista and Xp are on different partitions, same drive. I have to select which I want to run during boot before the timer/default option is selected.

Regarding VMs, glad you brought that up. I don't own Win7. However, my Win95-Win2K VMs are installed from XP. This does mean that when I want to play with Win95-XP, I must boot to XP and to play with Vista, I'll have to boot to Vista. When the time comes and I do get Win7, I'll have to address these issues too. I really don't want a tri-boot system and don't want to reinstall all the VMs (especially since updating some of them may be nearly impossible now; getting IE5 for Win95 was a challenge).The VM's should all be stored in *.vhd files somewhere, just keep those and when you need to re-create them, create a new VM and point it to the exists *.vhd file as appropriate.

[LaVolpe]

The VM's should all be stored in *.vhd files somewhere, just keep those and when you need to re-create them, create a new VM and point it to the exists *.vhd file as appropriate.If it's that easy, that will make my day when that day comes, thanx.

Edited: Hmmm, you gave me an idea for testing/practicing. Set up VPC on Vista and point to vhds on other partition ;)

[JuggaloBrotha]

If it's that easy, that will make my day when that day comes, thanx.

Edited: Hmmm, you gave me an idea for testing/practicing. Set up VPC on Vista and point to vhds on other partition ;)That's what I do, I have VPC installed on my XP partition but the vhd's are on my other hard drive (Drive D:) and it worked wonderfully for a year, then I realised that I need more info stored on that D: drive so I relocated my entire MyDocuments folder to my D: drive and not in C:\Documents and Settings\MyUserAccout\ anymore so now my vhd's and their VPC profiles are on d:\ and all I have to do is install VPC in the OS and it'll use what's already in the MyDocuments folder.

[mendhak]

Long thread, but did you post your specs anywhere? I've had 7 since it came out and all games have worked perfectly on it.

[chris128]

Read the first line of the thread lol

[mendhak]

Alluding to the gfx card :p

[chris128]

Ah I see ;) well then you should be more specific mr mendhak :)

[brad jones]

Somewhat OFF TOPIC:

It's an add, but not a terrible one.

Since nobody has complained, I'll leave it. Normally, this would be removed as a violation of the AUP.

Brad!