Certification time: MCPD how hard are the exams really ?

[Christopher_Arm]

I am intending after much procrastination to take the first of these next month sometime I believe Microsoft Exam 70-536. How difficult is it really ? How relevant is it ? The reason for the second question is frankly I have taken mock/ test exams not brain dumps mind you only to find that some of the questions they ask are not analytical or scenario based but are pure mesmerization of facts regarding .Net Programming. And that is discouraging and has helped me in my procrastination. Why am I plopping down x dollars to take something that might boost my resume or might give me x perception in the industry for having when the down side is in x years I will have re-certify anyway because they will have versioned it to Net 4.0 or 5.0 or what have you ?

[Hack]

They are like any other exam....their difficulty level depends entirely on well you know the subject matter.

And, a lot of it is pure, rote, memorization.

Their revelency depends on their value in the marketplace and that value will vary from markeplace to marketplace.

Look at the local want ads in your area. Do you see a lot of them asking for or requiring these types of certifications?

[Christopher_Arm]

They are like any other exam....their difficulty level depends entirely on well you know the subject matter.

And, a lot of it is pure, rote, memorization.

Their revelency depends on their value in the marketplace and that value will vary from markeplace to marketplace.

Look at the local want ads in your area. Do you see a lot of them asking for or requiring these types of certifications?

Well that's just it.. I see employers and HR generalists using it as criteria now like a Master's degree in Computer Science is being used to lock out some computer jobs these days. You need 8 years of COBOL, 8 years of C++, 8 years of JAVA, and so on and then a certification used to be preferred and now it is mandated. I have always felt years of doing something means nothing as it could be 8 years of mediocre or lackluster work in the field and a degree is in the academic realm which deals on the theoretical side of programming as opposed to meaty real time scenarios that the corporate world dishes out.

And memorization of all of the stuff takes repetition if that is the case, rinse, repeat and wash all over again until eventually it cycles around enough in your brain that you are confident enough which is a psychological barrier only then.

[FunkyDexter]

I sat a few certification exams on sql server a while back and the recite by rote stuff really chaffed my chugnuts. I don't care which versions of SQLServer 2000 support indexed views - when I need to know I'll damn well look it up. Knowing that stuff by heart doesn't make me a better programmer.

I also don't think that the ms certifications are particularly worth it. They're not cheap to take and I rarely, if ever, see a job advertised that requires it - or even mentions it. (You sound like you're having a different experience on that front though.) I'd sit it if an employer was paying for it but I don't think I'd reach into my own pocket for it.

I have always felt years of doing something means nothingI definitely agree with that. Some of the most "experienced" programmers I know have also been some of the worst. It's amazing how long you can survive in this industry by repeatedly pressing ctrl-c, ctrl-v.

[gep13]

Hey,

I have completed 70-536 so hopefully I might be able to give you some guidance here.

I bought the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/MCTS-Self-Paced-Training-Exam-70-536/dp/0735622779/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239868687&sr=1-2

This book included a set of practice exams from MeasureUp which I found to be invaluable in my preparation. I actually found that the questions from MeasureUp were pitched at a slightly higher level than those in the actual exam. i.e. If you can pass the practice exams, you should be able to pass the actual exam. That is only my opinion though.

As for actual preparation, have a look here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/trika/archive/2008/06/12/70-536-prep-session.aspx

This contains a very good webcast about preparing for the exam and what exactly you need to know.

Depending on what route you are taking, i.e. either Web or Windows Development, there will be lessons in the 70-536 syllabus that you aren't going to use very often, but they are fundamental to the .Net Framework and really you should know about them.

I have recently learned that the pre-requisite exam for the MCTS is going to be removed, you can find out information about this here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/gerryo/archive/2009/04/13/certification-update-and-small-survey.aspx

I would recommend that you try the practice exams, and get a feeling for what areas that you need to study and go from there.

Within the Microsoft Learning site you can set up a Learning Plan that you can follow including articles etc, so there is plenty of help available.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

Hey,

I have completed 70-536 so hopefully I might be able to give you some guidance here.

I bought the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/MCTS-Self-Paced-Training-Exam-70-536/dp/0735622779/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239868687&sr=1-2

This book included a set of practice exams from MeasureUp which I found to be invaluable in my preparation. I actually found that the questions from MeasureUp were pitched at a slightly higher level than those in the actual exam. i.e. If you can pass the practice exams, you should be able to pass the actual exam. That is only my opinion though.

As for actual preparation, have a look here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/trika/archive/2008/06/12/70-536-prep-session.aspx

This contains a very good webcast about preparing for the exam and what exactly you need to know.

Depending on what route you are taking, i.e. either Web or Windows Development, there will be lessons in the 70-536 syllabus that you aren't going to use very often, but they are fundamental to the .Net Framework and really you should know about them.

I have recently learned that the pre-requisite exam for the MCTS is going to be removed, you can find out information about this here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/gerryo/archive/2009/04/13/certification-update-and-small-survey.aspx

I would recommend that you try the practice exams, and get a feeling for what areas that you need to study and go from there.

Within the Microsoft Learning site you can set up a Learning Plan that you can follow including articles etc, so there is plenty of help available.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Gary

How long did you study for if you don't mind me asking ? This of course is in direct complement to your first hand experience in applying what you have studied.

[gep13]

Hey,

You are right, the length of time that it takes to study is dependent on your experience and also how much time you are able to dedicate to your studying on a daily basis.

In my case, I have about 4 years of experience with ASP.Net, and I was able to dedicate about 4 hours a week to reading up on the subject, and it took me 2 months to be ready for the exam. In this time, I read through the Microsoft Press book at least 3 times, which might be a bit of overkill, but as this was my first Microsoft exam, I wanted to make sure that I was ready for it.

Gary

[gep13]

I also don't think that the ms certifications are particularly worth it. They're not cheap to take and I rarely, if ever, see a job advertised that requires it - or even mentions it. (You sound like you're having a different experience on that front though.) I'd sit it if an employer was paying for it but I don't think I'd reach into my own pocket for it.


I have to disagree with that one. I personally feel that the exams are very worthwhile. As I said I have 4 years of experience in using ASP.Net, but I have nothing to say that I can do anything with it. Sure I can recite the projects that I have completed, but having a Microsoft Certification under your belt shows that you know enough about the subject to write the exam.

I personally don't think that they are that expensive, compared to the benefit that you get from them. But perhaps that is just my opinion.

I am very happy in my current job, and the MCPD Certificate that I now hold is being used to help my company apply for Microsoft Gold Certified Partner status, so that in itself is a great benefit.

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

I have to disagree with that one. I personally feel that the exams are very worthwhile. As I said I have 4 years of experience in using ASP.Net, but I have nothing to say that I can do anything with it. Sure I can recite the projects that I have completed, but having a Microsoft Certification under your belt shows that you know enough about the subject to write the exam.

I personally don't think that they are that expensive, compared to the benefit that you get from them. But perhaps that is just my opinion.

I am very happy in my current job, and the MCPD Certificate that I now hold is being used to help my company apply for Microsoft Gold Certified Partner status, so that in itself is a great benefit.

Gary


Actually for my own two cents, I am seeing a lot of job availability in IT in this recession..however it became a hell of a lot more competitive so you might find 30 or more candidates applying for the same job. And on the job requirements section of many of the postings I am seeing lately on Dice, Monster and what have you... insert microsoft certification here required plus project experience that translates to 5 years and up in the programming language in question for each lanaguage that they expect you should have training in for the job description.

In some cases certifications are dealbreakers for even getting to the interview process. I am also seeing an influx of Master's Degrees and PhD's in computer science as stated requirements for financial IT based jobs that require knowledge of analytics and derivatives and so on.

[techgnome]

I sat a few certification exams on sql server a while back and the recite by rote stuff really chaffed my chugnuts. I don't care which versions of SQLServer 2000 support indexed views - when I need to know I'll damn well look it up. Knowing that stuff by heart doesn't make me a better programmer.
No, but it is something a true DBA should know.... which is what the SQL Cert exams are aimed at... they are optional for developers.

I also don't think that the ms certifications are particularly worth it. They're not cheap to take and I rarely, if ever, see a job advertised that requires it - or even mentions it.
True... BUT, if you've got 10 qualified candidates... all with equal or simmilar experiences, all interviewed well, and are other wise all equal... odds are, you're going to give a second look to the one with the cert... that's where I've seen it be the most effective. It's just one more standards stick used to help get an edge.

I'd sit it if an employer was paying for it but I don't think I'd reach into my own pocket for it.
Yeah... I agree with that. I'm hoping to see if I can get that changed where I'm at.

I definitely agree with that. Some of the most "experienced" programmers I know have also been some of the worst. It's amazing how long you can survive in this industry by repeatedly pressing ctrl-c, ctrl-v.
Hehehe.... you should see some of the code that's running the country's military systems...

As strange as it sounds, when I went through my recent round of interviews last year, it wasn't my MS Cert (which is now 10yrs old, and for VB6) that gave me an edge.... but the MVP designation. The fact that it isn't a given, and there aren't many in the local area (haven't verified, but I've been told that there are only 2 in the local market and the other one is an Exchange MVP) caused several people to take notice.

-tg

[Christopher_Arm]

Actually I am taking this exam and hopefully attaining/ using this certification to firm up my resume as I am trying to make my exit strategy more of reality from my current job. See my rant thread below on I just don't understand for my logic and reasoning as to why it is a good time to strive for this cert now.

[gep13]

The long and the short of it is, everyone is going to have different opinions as to whether or not certifications are worth it, you know my opinion, and you have to decide for yourself whether you want to go through with it or not, and it is sounding like you have made the decision.

The next step is simply to knuckle down and do it. As to how long that will take it will be down to you. I know guys in my office who could probably sit the exam without really doing any study, simply because they have that much experience.

I ended up reading through the book and then doing a practice exam, and that highlighted the areas that I needed to concentrate on. Maybe a good idea for you would be to do one of the Practice exams, that way you know straight away what you need to work on, and this will limit the time it takes to get ready for the exam.

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

Good idea. What is passing on the current MS exam these days ? I vaguely remember that for a Sun Certification the passing score is lower which always amazed me somehow.

[gep13]

Hey,

The pass mark for the exams is normally 700, which roughly equates to 70% from what I understand.

Gary

[FunkyDexter]

No, but it is something a true DBA should knowTrue, but when I sat them I was going for the MCP as a DB developer and I'm pretty sure it was an obligatory unit (though it was a while back so I could be wrong). I think what bothered me at the time was not so much that I had to know things by rote but rather that I had to know things by rote that were incidental rather than fundamental to my job and the cert I was trying to achieve. For some reason the indexed view one stuck in mind but there were loads of things I really felt I shouldn't need to know but had to memorise anyway.

Particularly irritating was the fact that I failed it... twice... by less than one percent each time... while there was a pay rise dependent on me passing it:mad:

[Christopher_Arm]

True, but when I sat them I was going for the MCP as a DB developer and I'm pretty sure it was an obligatory unit (though it was a while back so I could be wrong). I think what bothered me at the time was not so much that I had to know things by rote but rather that I had to know things by rote that were incidental rather than fundamental to my job and the cert I was trying to achieve. For some reason the indexed view one stuck in mind but there were loads of things I really felt I shouldn't need to know but had to memorise anyway.

Particularly irritating was the fact that I failed it... twice... by less than one percent each time... while there was a pay rise dependent on me passing it:mad:


I do agree with you that there is a percentage of fluff on the exams..basically topics that have no real world application or scenario attached to them specifically. And in that case it is rote memorization in regards to study practices and regurgitation come exam time. And the exams are adaptive and timed adding extra pressure so answer one wrong and the next is scaled in difficulty according to the previous answers. And you have to be sure of the answer you gave because you can't go back to it and correct it.
If I am spending 125 dollars a pop per exam, I really should have the ability to review and correct a mistake if time is on my side.

[gep13]

Hey,

I can you tell you that you have got the oppurtunity to back and review your questions. Any question that you are unsure on can be marked for review, then once you have gone through all the questions you can go back and answer them. have you done any of the practice exams from measureup, they are exzactly the same format as the actual exam.

Also, I am fairly sure this is discussed in the webcast that I linked to, did you watch the webcast?

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

Hey,

I can you tell you that you have got the oppurtunity to back and review your questions. Any question that you are unsure on can be marked for review, then once you have gone through all the questions you can go back and answer them. have you done any of the practice exams from measureup, they are exzactly the same format as the actual exam.

Also, I am fairly sure this is discussed in the webcast that I linked to, did you watch the webcast?

Gary

Security filters at my job combined with micromanagment walking in hurriedly every few minutes and a prison grey cube space with constant lack of privacy makes that near impossible to view right now. I 'll look at the web cast later when I get a chance.

[gep13]

Hey,

To give you a break down of some of the content:


General Tips - The Exam
- DON’T PANIC! You will not know all the answers
- Skip questions you don’t know and come back to them later
- Answer every question even if it’s just a guess (there is no penalty for wrong answers)
- Check your time remaining at half-way point
- Use the ‘Mark for Review’ checkbox and review later


Out of interest, where did you get the idea that you couldn't go back and check your answers?

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

An article I read sometime back that must have been misquoted. When I read that my first reaction was hmm that's scary and then afterwards was hmm...by that reckoning( adaptive, time constraints, and lack of reviewing answers you haven't checked off for review sort of a final look over of your exam) Microsoft is encouraging more failures than people passing their exams and reaping all the benefits from the money they grab up in the process. Someone somewhere in Microsoft or Prometric they must have a metric, a measured study of this pass fail ratio wtih each exam over the years based on statistical data with some standard deviation applied perhaps.

And then you have to re-certify later as time goes along which means more money doled out. And it was this series of misunderstandings that made me procrastinate to some degree.

[gep13]

Hey,

I know what you are saying about the re-certification. As I have said, I have now completed the MCPD for Web Development in .Net 2.0, but I am now looking to do the upgrade exam to 3.5. This is only one more additional exam, and in my mind it gives me a good incentive to learn some of the new concepts in 3.5, i.e. LINQ etc, so I am looking forward to getting my teeth stuck into it.

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

I am reading through chapter one right now dealing with framework fundamentals, value and reference types, and conversion between the two, delegates, and class construction among other topics. It seems largely like fluff though. Most of this stuff here is object oriented design 101. Basically a no brainer, if you didn't have this knowledge at all I would expect that you would not have coded a .NET application from conventional experience beyond the simplicity of "hello world".

[gep13]

Hey,

What you have to remember is that the certification route is trying to prove that someone who passes the exams understand the core concepts of the .Net Framework, and this includes the Base Types, creating classes, delegates etc. I certainly wouldn't refer to these concepts as fluff though, they are the foundation of everything that you do using the .Net Framework. These books have to cater as well for a broad range of experiences. The book states that you should have at least 2 years experience with .Net, but you can imagine that new developers are also going to pick the book up and there has to be somewhere for them to start as well.

If you are finding that you already know the different aspects covered in a particular chapter, then move onto the next one.

That is why I suggested that perhaps you do a practice exams first. This will allow you to focus your time on the areas that you are not as familiar with.

Gary

[Christopher_Arm]

Hey,

What you have to remember is that the certification route is trying to prove that someone who passes the exams understand the core concepts of the .Net Framework, and this includes the Base Types, creating classes, delegates etc. I certainly wouldn't refer to these concepts as fluff though, they are the foundation of everything that you do using the .Net Framework. These books have to cater as well for a broad range of experiences. The book states that you should have at least 2 years experience with .Net, but you can imagine that new developers are also going to pick the book up and there has to be somewhere for them to start as well.

If you are finding that you already know the different aspects covered in a particular chapter, then move onto the next one.

That is why I suggested that perhaps you do a practice exams first. This will allow you to focus your time on the areas that you are not as familiar with.

Gary

I will go over the CD ROM and see about the practice exams there and determine my proficiencies of lack thereof in those categories and from there review and figure out my plan of attack.

[gep13]

Hey,

Sounds like a plan!

Gary