[RESOLVED] Copyright and code?

[Nightwalker83]

Hi,

I know that copyright covers a person's interlectual property, programs and things they create. However, I don't think copyright can be applied to source code? There can only be a certain number of ways to write the same expression can there? What happens when there is no code left to use? It is like if soome tried to copyright a spoken/written language (English or German) when no one could speak write in that language without having to pay royalsities for the privilidge of using it.

Thanks,



Nightwalker

[techgnome]

yes and no.... true a simple If statement can't be copyrighted any more than a pen could be copyrighted.... how ever a complex business rule utilizing the if statement could be, jsut as could be architectual plans drawn using that pen.

spoken and written language is copyrighted all the time.... songs... books... even some types of works of art are copyrighted all the time. Language (as English or German) become a tool, just like VB is. But it's the implementation and application of those languages, the end result, that is copyrightable... and in some, unique cases, even patentable.


-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

Didn't Amazon try to patent Click Once purchasing? You can get your hands on anything you have the lawyers to enforce, no matter how illogical. Patent and copyrights are being stretched into fields that they were never originally intended to cover (in fact, they are in fields that didn't exist even in the imaginations of the original definers). How this will all shake out is not yet clear, and while the law is trying to catch up, people are doing their level best to grab exclusive control of real estate that would give them tremendous financial advantage.

[RobDog888]

Actually whne you submit a copyright for software you are to submit the first and last 25 pages of source code or the source on electronic media.

Now if you are doing something unique then a copyright could be awarded but if you are trying to copyright a generic function in a generic program then odds are slim

[techgnome]

The problem with the Amazon OneClick Checkout was that they tried to patent it AFTER the fact, after everyone else tried to copy their process. Had they developed the process, patented it, THEN used it... it would have turned out differently. But since they didn't go that route they lost, because by then it was so common place.

When it comes to development, I've done stuff that I wouldn't consider patentable, but some of it is trade/industry specific and is considered protected copyrighted proprietary works.

-tg

[Nightwalker83]

It got me thinking after I saw a lot of code with the copyright mark on it. How much of the code falls under the copyright because as techgnome said you can't copyright a simple expression such as if or for.

Even for the code say Visual Basic or Html there must be only a number of different solutions the program creating it can understand? Would that have any bearing on the copyright issue?

[techgnome]

I don't think so. Usually what is copyrighted are complete blocks of code, assemblies, modules, libraries, controls, things like that. Not individual lines. It's the combination of those lines and and functionality as a complete unit. I've got code out there that's copyrighted. The logic isn't mine, and is copyrighted by some one else (my client), but the implementation of that logic is copyrighted by me.

Think of it like this - the code for Windows is copyrighted... it's written in something (I think assembly, C, and machine code, or whatever) ... same deal. OS X is also copyrighted... it's a GUI based OS as well... but its implementation is different from MS Windows...

-tg

[Nightwalker83]

Ah, I think I understand now! The code by itself is not copyrighted but the idea that the code creates is. Say I create code to calculate the length of the sides of a triangle then output the result to a web page. The first part of the code wouldn't be protected neither would the code to dispay the result on the web page. That is unless you use the exact same code for the calculating the sides of the triangle then display the result to a web page.

If you decide to change the code then I think you would have to modify something like 51% or more (can't remember the exact amount) for the copyright to be invalid.

[techgnome]

It's overly simplified, so it's not quite a good example.... here's a better one...

A system that generates invoices... hundreds of applications do this.... but they all do it differently.... they may share some commonalities, after all, how many different ways are there to draw a line on a report. They key to it, as I understand it, and I'm not a lawyer, is if it's something that is so common place that any reasonable developer can do it, it's not unique enough to be copyrighted. However, if the design is such that it is specific to a particular niche then it could be potentially copyrightable. Based on what I've read, that's the generally accepted litmus test for copyright. It's what got Amazon into trouble. They let the idea get away from them and then tried to patent it after the fact. But by then the idea had become too common place and would have been a detriment to a number of other companies, so the court threw out their case.

-tg

[Nightwalker83]

I had to do copyright and ethics as part of my course for web design at school. However, I don't think the copyright part covered this stuff.

[techgnome]

Probably because it in that context the concern is about the content itself.

-tg

[Kasracer]

Anything you create in the United States has an implied copyright. You can't copyright a simple if statement unless it is original.

Do Trademarks, Copyrights and Patents protect the same things?

No. Trademarks, copyrights and patents all differ. A copyright protects an original artistic or literary work; a patent protects an invention. For copyright information, go to http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/. For patent information, go to http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm.uspto.gov (http://www.uspto.gov/go/tac/doc/basic/trade_defin.htm)

So if your code is original then yes you can copyright it (it'll have an implied copyright unless you decide to actually pay for a real copyright) otherwise no.

[Nightwalker83]

So if your code is original then yes you can copyright it (it'll have an implied copyright unless you decide to actually pay for a real copyright) otherwise no.

Is there any difference between the two actual paid copyright and implied copyright despite the fact that one is paid for one is not?

[techgnome]

Paid is more likely to be held up in court. Implied copyrights are harder to prove.

-tg

[Nightwalker83]

Paid is more likely to be held up in court. Implied copyrights are harder to prove.

-tg

Also with paid I am guessing there is an international record kept of copyrights and the owners information. Whereas with implied you would not know if it was under copyright unless you had seen the actual copyright notice or h be told that the item was under copyright.

[RobDog888]

You can get a national copyright or a worldwide one. National ones arent known by other countries unless you find its being breached and then have to persue action to notify and claim damages etc.

[Nightwalker83]

I have just remembered I bought a web design magazine "Australian Web Designer Issue 4 2008". Inside the mag there are several tips about how to protect your code such as adding a watermark "personal touch" to your code or design in order to distinguish it from some another code or design. It was recommended that this technique be used along-side copyright to ensure your work remains your own. They is because copyright is useless if you can't prove you were indeed the original creator of the product.

[chris128]

While we are on the subject, didnt Microsoft try to copyright the "Is Not" statement in programming? (and fail miserably)

[Kasracer]

While we are on the subject, didnt Microsoft try to copyright the "Is Not" statement in programming? (and fail miserably)Couldn't find anything on The Google but sounds like an interesting read if anyone knows about it.

[chris128]

Yeah I just tried to search for it on google but its hard to search for something like that cos you get so many other results

[Nightwalker83]

Yeah I just tried to search for it on google but its hard to search for something like that cos you get so many other results

Don't know any any code copyright attempts like that! However, I have hear of some pretty strange everyday copyright attempts.

[chris128]

Couldn't find anything on The Google but sounds like an interesting read if anyone knows about it.

Found it :)

http://www.geek.com/articles/news/microsofts-isnot-patent-20050223/

and here: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Real-Software-Slams-Microsofts-Patent-Effort/