Why do you hate the United States?

[Mark Gambo]

For as long as I have been a member of VBF I noticed an anti-american sediments by other members. Some of them covertly or thinly veiled comments. So what is it that bugs you the most about the US? Prehaps you don't like our form of Government, or is it you don't like the amount of freedoms our Constitution grants to us? Could it be you don't like the fact that we don't have a figure head as the head of our Government? Whatever you reason please post it here

[Pino]

Throw us some samples of anti-American sentiment :) - No names though

[crptcblade]

Boy, the Dept. of Homeland Security has become more overt with their tactics. Can't they tap phones anymore? :afrog:

[Shaggy Hiker]

For as long as I have been a member of VBF I noticed an anti-american sediments by other members.

Are you stoned? Sedimentaries rock!

Or were you just complaining about all the mud slinging?

On a more serious note, I'm waiting for somebody to answer: Other - this poll!
What a pack of arrogant options.

[grilkip]

For as long as I have been a member of VBF I noticed an anti-american sediments by other members. Some of them covertly or thinly veiled comments. So what is it that bugs you the most about the US?You.Prehaps you don't like our form of Government,Who cares about form? The results count.or is it you don't like the amount of freedoms our Constitution grants to us?Yes, this has bugged me my whole life, I can't get over it.Could it be you don't like the fact that we don't have a figure head as the head of our Government?Yes, I do hate America for not having a royal house, one should be of good breeding to rule a nation.Whatever you reason please post it hereMostly it's you. You appear to gain satisfaction from the knowledge that you're living in the richest country in the world, and you revel in the thought that everyone in the world is envious of you.

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Prehaps you don't like our form of Government.
The US government is fine as long as you are not part of it.

Or is it you don't like the amount of freedoms our Constitution grants to us?
Freedom is subjective; but I am inclined to say that you should have the right to post here removed. Is that in the American constitution? :wave:


Could it be you don't like the fact that we don't have a figure head as the head of our Government?
Our queen is a mighty woman; although quite powerless. Don't come to the UK though, I fear that if she were to knight you you'd end up in three pieces. :D

Now what was it I don't like about America. Nothing not to like really. Although some of its people have overdosed waaaaaay too much on the patriotic peel. :p

Don't say you didn't ask for that. Now I think my covert comments have risen from the sediments and shown their metamorphic nature. Wouldn't you agree?

[mendhak]

For as long as I have been a member of VBF I noticed an anti-american sediments by other members. Some of them covertly or thinly veiled comments. So what is it that bugs you the most about the US? Prehaps you don't like our form of Government, or is it you don't like the amount of freedoms our Constitution grants to us? Could it be you don't like the fact that we don't have a figure head as the head of our Government? Whatever you reason please post it here
Our figurehead said that if we don't have anti-American sentiments, she'd beat us with a rolled up copy of the constitution.

Now you know.

[Mark Gambo]

Our figurehead said that if we don't have anti-American sentiments, she'd beat us with a rolled up copy of the constitution.

Now you know.


Finally and honest and truthful answer, thank you!

[Mark Gambo]

Throw us some samples of anti-American sentiment :) - No names though

You are joking right? Query some CC posts from two certain members one from Canada and another from Sweden.

If you want their names pm and I will give them to you and even give you specific posts if you would like.

[Mark Gambo]

Are you stoned? Sedimentaries rock!

Or were you just complaining about all the mud slinging?

Unfortunately, I am away for the weekend and I typed this on my Blackberry. Besides, you know us conservatives are too uptight to smoke a joint :-)

On a more serious note, I'm waiting for somebody to answer: Other - this poll!
What a pack of arrogant options.

Yeah me too.

[Mark Gambo]

. . .Mostly it's you. You appear to gain satisfaction from the knowledge that you're living in the richest country in the world, and you revel in the thought that everyone in the world is envious of you.

No, I feel lucky and privileged to live in the US. I am proud of the accomplishments of my country and how we have improved the quality of life of people worldwide who have benefited from the technology that was developed here by americans.

[Mark Gambo]

The US government is fine as long as you are not part of it.

Hmmm, that is kind of hard to do here in the US.

Freedom is subjective; but I am inclined to say that you should have the right to post here removed. Is that in the American constitution? :wave:

Wow, do you think and say this about everyone you don't agree with. I liken your statement to something the Communists have/are doing. Silence the critics.

Our queen is a mighty woman; although quite powerless. Don't come to the UK though, I fear that if she were to knight you you'd end up in three pieces. :D

Well since I am not a subject of the crown, I guess I won't be invited to Buckingham anytime soon.

Now what was it I don't like about America. Nothing not to like really. Although some of its people have overdosed waaaaaay too much on the patriotic peel. :p

I'll agree with you to a point.

Don't say you didn't ask for that. Now I think my covert comments have risen from the sediments and shown their metamorphic nature. Wouldn't you agree?

I deserve to be "stoned" for that comment thank you.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Hey, no swiping my pun just for Visual Ads benefit!!!

[Mark Gambo]

Hey, no swiping my pun just for Visual Ads benefit!!!

Sorru Bro, I guess I owe you one.

[dsheller]

No, I feel lucky and privileged to live in the US. I am proud of the accomplishments of my country and how we have improved the quality of life of people worldwide who have benefited from the technology that was developed here by americans.

Yes, technology developed by americans... which resulted from the science, mathematics, and technologies developed by the rest of the world as well. I live in the US, and am very grateful to live here, but by no stretch of the imagination would I pretend to gain an understanding as to why some people dislike (very kind term here) the US. Until you have lived their life you are very unlikely to understand their reasoning.

[Mark Gambo]

. . . Until you have lived their life you are very unlikely to understand their reasoning.

Well this is what I am trying to discover.

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I liken your statement to something the Communists have/are doing. Silence the critics.

A right is also a sanction. To enforce one right you must give up another. Communism has its upsides ;) especially in forums where the moderators are chosen / recommended. :p

[Mark Gambo]

A right is also a sanction. To enforce one right you must give up another. Communism has its upsides ;) especially in forums where the moderators are chosen / recommended. :p


Like this (http://www.telisphere.com/~cearley/sean/camps/first.html)

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It doesn't load for me. Maybe it is being blocked by communists.

[Mark Gambo]

It doesn't load for me. Maybe it is being blocked by communists.


Maybe Communists hate free speech and religion:

First They Came for the Jews


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The "they" in the original poem would serve fairly well for conservative, except for the first phrase.

So let's update it for modern issues:

First they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the homosexuals
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the educators
and tried to force their religion on our young.
Then they came for those who whave non-marital relations with women
Yikes...but then again, they aren't too clean in this regard either.
Then they came for the environmentalists.
Yikes.

[Mark Gambo]

. . . Then they came for the educators
and tried to force their religion on our young.

You know quite well that the Left doesn't allow any type religion to be taught in school except of course to allow members of a certain religion to prayer during the school day. Hmmm, I wonder which religion that could be, ahhh yes the Religion of "Peace". Try to have a menorah or a Cross in a school and you will be prosecuted but stop the school day so we can pray yes that is fair.

This which reminds me of something a friend of mine once told me "As long as they keep having tests, there will always be prayer in school." I have prayed many a time in school especially before Midterms and Finals probably just like you whether or not you want to admit it

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Free speech is a figure of speech. I do believe that the idea behind communism is that everyone is seen as equal from a material perspective; totally flawed and totally impossible. But I am also under the belief that democracy is based upon social equality; again totally impossible and flawed.

Here in the UK, if I were to go and preach extremist views I may silenced. My extreme views could be based on religion and I may be exercising my right to free speech. However, I would be deemed as behaving in a socially unacceptable manner and thus giving up my right to exercise my freedom of speech. It highlights the need that in some cases individuals need to be silenced.

If I were an extremist who encouraged the others to commit mass murder in the interests of an agenda or belief and I then went and exercised my right to freedom of speech by telling everyone. I would (in the UK at least) be silenced and possibly arrested and charged under the terrorism act. If you look beyond of the moral and ethical problems with this kind of preaching (i.e: its clearly not right to kill), my actions would be deemed as socially unacceptable and more importantly they would threaten the social ideals of the society. This is because I my actions could result in one or more people doing what i say and threatening the society. It is therefore necessary to remove my right to freedom of speech in order to preserve agendas of the society.

While this is an extreme example it does demonstrate that a freedom is note necessarily a freedom. The fourth amendment in the US constitution for example gives citizens the right not to be subjected to unreasonable violations of their privacy without probable cause. In the UK there is no such right and police have stop and search powers but not a normal citizen. In either case that right is given up in certain conditions.

Dictatorship, communism, socialism and democracy exist in all cultures in varying degrees and circumstances. The thing to remember is that these societies are not necessarily bad; they don't necessarily oppress religion and in some it is the best way in which the nation can exist peacefully . The ideal world is by no means a democratic one.

[Mark Gambo]

Free speech is a figure of speech. I do believe that the idea behind communism is that everyone is seen as equal from a material perspective; totally flawed and totally impossible. . . . no means a democratic one.

Hmmm, your point being ;-) The freedom of speech here in "the States" is not absolute either for example you can't go into a crowded Fire House and yell Movie :D. Seriously, you may not be aware of this but at least in the State of New York, and probably other states also, the police have a right in a public place (Street, Bus Station, etc.) to stop you and possibly Frisk you if they reasonably believe that you have, are, or are about to committed a Crime (NYS Definition any Felony or Penal Law Misdemeanor). They can detain you for an indefinite amount of time while they investigate you.

[Shaggy Hiker]

You know quite well that the Left doesn't allow any type religion to be taught in school except of course to allow members of a certain religion to prayer during the school day. Hmmm, I wonder which religion that could be, ahhh yes the Religion of "Peace". Try to have a menorah or a Cross in a school and you will be prosecuted but stop the school day so we can pray yes that is fair.

This which reminds me of something a friend of mine once told me "As long as they keep having tests, there will always be prayer in school." I have prayed many a time in school especially before Midterms and Finals probably just like you whether or not you want to admit it

I honestly have no idea what you are refering to in the first paragraph. The only thing we did routinely was bomb scares as soon as the weather got nice. Of course, I grew up in northern New England, which is hardly the hot bed of just about anything. What was this Religion of "Peace" you were refering to? The only thing I can think of is the Quakers, but I don't know any school that knows anything about them outside of the oatmeal.

As for the second paragraph, I never prayed for a test. My general style was nonchalance. I have those dreams that people talk about where you show up to class in time for the final and realize you haven't been there for the whole semester and didn't study, except that in my version, I just say "bring it on, I may not have been here all semester, but I'll pass your silly test!" In fact, the reason I was able to do well without studying for more than half an hour per test was because I have a good memory that gets better under pressure, so the dreams are wrong. To do well on a test, it wouldn't matter whether or not I studied, but it would certainly matter whether or not I had been to class.

[Mark Gambo]

One thing I do like about the UK Judaical system is the fact that a person who has been arrest identity is not released to the public unless they are convicted. I have seem some instances where a man is arrested for rape only to be found not guilty at trial. but his name was already released to the media and he will be forever branded as a rapist even if the victim recants her story on the stand. The Duke Lacrosse Rape Case is a perfect example. A man who was once acquitted after a well publicized criminal trial once said "Where do I go to to get my reputation back?"

[Shaggy Hiker]

Hmmm, your point being ;-) The freedom of speech here in "the States" is not absolute either for example you can't go into a crowded Fire House and yell Movie :D. Seriously, you may not be aware of this but at least in the State of New York, and probably other states also, the police have a right in a public place (Street, Bus Station, etc.) to stop you and possibly Frisk you if they reasonably believe that you have, are, or are about to committed a Crime (NYS Definition any Felony or Penal Law Misdemeanor). They can detain you for an indefinite amount of time while they investigate you.

They can also stop and search you to some extent without probable cause as long as they do not single you out. This is used for drunk driving checks, hunter check stations, etc. As long as you are searching everyone equally, or based on a mathematical formula (every other car, for instance), then it's ok...up to a point. It is permissible to look through glass, but not open a closed container (trunk) without probable cause or permission.

[Mark Gambo]

I honestly have no idea what you are refering to in the first paragraph. . .

You should read something other than the New York Times or the Washington Post a little more

http://www.10news.com/news/13767699/detail.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0712/p01s03-ussc.htm
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/453.html
http://www.aclusandiego.org/news_item.php?article_id=000273
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8LOC15O0&show_article=1

. . . The only thing we did routinely was bomb scares as soon as the weather got nice. Of course, I grew up in northern New England, which is hardly the hot bed of just about anything.

Ahh, the good old days but today that would probably get you arrested.

What was this Religion of "Peace" you were refering to? The only thing I can think of is the Quakers, but I don't know any school that knows anything about them outside of the oatmeal.

Religion of "Peace" (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/)

As for the second paragraph, I never prayed for a test. My general style was nonchalance. I have those dreams that people talk about where you show up to class in time for the final and realize you haven't been there for the whole semester and didn't study, except that in my version, I just say "bring it on, I may not have been here all semester, but I'll pass your silly test!" In fact, the reason I was able to do well without studying for more than half an hour per test was because I have a good memory that gets better under pressure, so the dreams are wrong. To do well on a test, it wouldn't matter whether or not I studied, but it would certainly matter whether or not I had been to class.


Lucky you

[Mark Gambo]

They can also stop and search you to some extent without probable cause as long as they do not single you out. This is used for drunk driving checks, hunter check stations, etc. As long as you are searching everyone equally, or based on a mathematical formula (every other car, for instance), then it's ok...up to a point. It is permissible to look through glass, but not open a closed container (trunk) without probable cause or permission.


I hate to differ with you again, what you are referring to is a check point where some sort of systematic policy has been put in place ie Stop every 4 car, etc. No what I am talking about is New York State Criminal Procedure Law Section 140.50 (http://law.onecle.com/new-york/criminal-procedure/CPL0140.50_140.50.html) which authorizes a police officer “to stop a person in a public place . . . when he reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor.” Once such a stop has been made, New York law authorizes a frisk of the person only if the officer “reasonably suspects that he is in danger of physical injury.” These provisions form the core of what is popularly referred to as New York’s “Stop and Frisk Act.”

You can be walking down the street minding your own business and if someone tells a Police Officer that they saw you with the a gun believe me you will be stopped and question and most probably searched Even if you aren't carrying a gun. Anything else you may have been carrying on your person (ie Drugs, etc) that the police find on you as result of the search is admissible against you in state court.

[Mark Gambo]

Shaggy

here are a couple more links for your reading pleasure:

http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=24453&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1
http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=24362&&name=n&&currPage=1&&Active=1

These two links are from the Council on American Islamic Relations (http://www.cair.com/Home.aspx) (CAIR) hardly a right wing group.

[space_monkey]

No option for yanks who love our own country? Don't get me wrong i don't agree with everything the current administration has done nor do i agree with everything the previous administration did, and it's most likely that i won't agree with everything the next one does either. Well unless they elect me.

Also i don't think the US is the better than every other country out there, we have plenty of problems.

But with all that being said I love my country and can't wait to love yours too. :)



WAIT WE HAVE INDOOR PLUMBING?

[Shaggy Hiker]

You should read something other than the New York Times or the Washington Post a little more

I read neither, of course. Good links, though. Some changes to allow for people to go off and pray should be allowed, it just shouldn't be mandated. This was never an issue when I was growing up. The christian right had no power up there. Had we been allowed time to go off and pray, you can bet I would have taken advantage of it...following Transendentalism, if you know what that is. If you don't, look up Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau (what's with people using their middle names back then, was it just that movement?).


Ahh, the good old days but today that would probably get you arrested.

It would back then, too. I have no idea who was calling in the bomb scares. I do think there was very little effort spent on trying to catch the perpetrators, and there would probably be more now, but without a tip, there was little they could do back then. I noted that bomb scares were only in the spring, and only on sunny days when the temperature got up into the 60's.


Religion of "Peace" (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/)

That may be accurate, but is there any religion that doesn't have blood on it's hands? (ok, the Quakers don't have much history of bloodshed, nor do the Unitarians, but those are just offshoots of christianity, which has a gory history indeed). Every religion seems to go through this, and some never get out of it. If we aren't killing people over their flavor or christianity in this country, it's only because we got tired of it. Phooey on them all.




Lucky you

My cup is only half full. Why is it only those dreams where I can alter the outcome to get rid of what would normally cause stress? There are some people who can control what happens in their dreams entirely. If I had that ability, I sure wouldn't be dreaming about going to school, though I'd be naked in alot more dreams, and I wouldn't be the only one;)

[penagate]

Well this is what I am trying to discover.
Your own posts demonstrate exactly why.

You place the United States on a pedestal. You extol its virtues; you compare it to other cultures and ways of life in a manner that is nothing but condescending. You deliberately set out to frame anything that does not conform to your partisan, patriotic viewpoint as somehow inferior.

There is a prevailing arrogance among Americans. And you have the naïvetè to wonder why you think the rest of the world hates you. I hope that one day you can see.

[Pino]

Well I was just about to reply to this post, I couldn't be bothered to read it all. But I read Pengates post and well.. I couldn't really have put it better if I tried.

Pino

[TheBigB]

Whatever you reason please post it here
- Extreme censoring
- Guns on every corner of the street
- Americans thinking that they help the world by starting wars
- Strict religious families (not saying they don't have that anywhere else)
- Bush

I'm not saying that the Netherlands is perfect; I actually hate my country too, but those are my reasons.

By the way, no offense to anyone

[MaximilianMayrhofer]

Penagate put it pretty succintly.

[Atheist]

Your own posts demonstrate exactly why.

You place the United States on a pedestal. You extol its virtues; you compare it to other cultures and ways of life in a manner that is nothing but condescending. You deliberately set out to frame anything that does not conform to your partisan, patriotic viewpoint as somehow inferior.

There is a prevailing arrogance among Americans. And you have the naïvetè to wonder why you think the rest of the world hates you. I hope that one day you can see.
:thumb:

[Mark Gambo]

Your own posts demonstrate exactly why.

You place the United States on a pedestal. You extol its virtues; you compare it to other cultures and ways of life in a manner that is nothing but condescending. You deliberately set out to frame anything that does not conform to your partisan, patriotic viewpoint as somehow inferior.

There is a prevailing arrogance among Americans. And you have the naïvetè to wonder why you think the rest of the world hates you. I hope that one day you can see.

So I should sit back and just let uninformed persons make disparaging remarks about the US? Yes, I am very proud of my country and I have fought to protect it's sovereignty which I will happily do again if call upon to do so. How many of you can say that you have or would do the same?

I will not stand by and listen to out right slander of the US and it's people. It seems to me that all of the worlds problems are because of the US. So if it bothers you so much that I am a big "flag waver" then do yourself a favor don't read my posts better yet there is a function on VBF where you can ignore a particular user, I suggest that you utilize this feature because I am not going away and I will continue to espouse the virtues of the US whenever it comes under attack.by bombs or by the pen (or the keyboard).


With that being said I wish a Happy Easter to all and have a pleasant rest of your weekend!

[Mark Gambo]

Well I was just about to reply to this post, I couldn't be bothered to read it all. But I read Pengates post and well.. I couldn't really have put it better if I tried.

Pino

So I guess in your original post you were joking. :(

[SwedeNpro]

They eat all my hamburgers! thats why i dont like theeem!

And its stupid that its avablie to run with guns and all that.

[penagate]

So I should sit back and just let uninformed persons make disparaging remarks about the US? Yes, I am very proud of my country and I have fought to protect it's sovereignty which I will happily do again if call upon to do so. How many of you can say that you have or would do the same?

I will not stand by and listen to out right slander of the US and it's people. It seems to me that all of the worlds problems are because of the US. So if it bothers you so much that I am a big "flag waver" then do yourself a favor don't read my posts better yet there is a function on VBF where you can ignore a particular user, I suggest that you utilize this feature because I am not going away and I will continue to espouse the virtues of the US whenever it comes under attack.by bombs or by the pen (or the keyboard).

I cannot ignore you because it is my duty as a moderator to read your posts.


In order to reach understanding, one must see from not just one, but both sides. In this thread you asked people why they hate the United States. Yet in your responses you seek only to defend it from any and all criticism. I can only presume that you were the one joking.

In any case, it is irrational for one to feel hatred for a nation, especially one with as diverse a population as the United States. One might hate a government, perhaps, but governments are dynamic, and get replaced. One might generalise, and generalise as far as to feel hatred for the population as a whole, but populations turn over just as governments do. None of us are here indefinitely, yet grudges and prejudices stay. Each generation inherits the views, the attitudes of its predecessors, and adapts them in only the slightest of ways.

Do I hate the United States? No, because I will not commit this generalisation. But it is the views, the attitudes, which you display, with which I disagree, and with which people may take offence, or feel insulted by. I am trying to convey this to you. This is not slander; not unless slander is all you are willing to see it as.



With that being said I wish a Happy Easter to all and have a pleasant rest of your weekend!

Thank you and the very same to you and yours.

[grilkip]

So I should sit back and just let uninformed persons make disparaging remarks about the US? Yes, I am very proud of my country and I have fought to protect it's sovereignty which I will happily do again if call upon to do so. How many of you can say that you have or would do the same?I'd like to hear where you fought, because whether your fight was productive or not could be in question. :DI will not stand by and listen to out right slander of the US and it's people. It seems to me that all of the worlds problems are because of the US.There are plenty of people who support America and back it, whole countries even. You need to keep the picketers apart from the people with serious criticism. America is big, if you want to discuss Dutch politics here, feel free to start.So if it bothers you so much that I am a big "flag waver" then do yourself a favor don't read my posts better yet there is a function on VBF where you can ignore a particular user, I suggest that you utilize this feature because I am not going away and I will continue to espouse the virtues of the US whenever it comes under attack.by bombs or by the pen (or the keyboard).Can't take the heat? You know the saying...

[SurfDemon]

You are joking right? Query some CC posts from two certain members one from Canada and another from Sweden.

If you want their names pm and I will give them to you and even give you specific posts if you would like.
I can only guess that you're talking about me as you repeatedly seem to lose arguments to me. It's funny, but if I disagree with you, then are you implying that this means I hate the US? :ehh: Isn't that a touch arrogant? That is a very screwed up way of looking at things.

I have repeatedly stated in my posts that I think most American citizens are great people, and I think that they have some very good reasons to be proud of their country. So, do I hate the US?, not at all. Do I hate Bush?, yes. This is a very clear distinction.

Now, although on the whole I do like America and have had a lot of fun there, if you want things that I hate about it (note: this is very different from saying that you hate everything), then I would have to go with "detention without trial", "torturing prisoners" and "unprovoked attacks on other countries"..... really, all the same reasons that I hate the North Korean government or Saddam's Government.

But while we're talking about it, there are things that I hate about most governments in the world, including the British and Canadian ones (in particular the way politicians vote themselves pay rises or side with big business for political funding).

I think you will be very hard pushed to find many people who hate the US here. Can you point out some evidence?

As for your options, if you really think they might be reasons for people to hate a country, then it does show you to be totally out of touch with reality. But I don't really consider you to be any sort of measure of the average US citizen. All the choices are laughable.

As for the misguided patriotism, that doesn't bother me as it is a fact that almost 50% of the US population are of below average intelligence. :wave: I guess these are the ones who believe might is right, and it's okay to torture, maim and kill as long as it isn't happening to them.

[Mark Gambo]

Surf, guilty conscious hmmm ;-). Don't worry you were not the canadian citizen I was referring to in my post to pino. So rest easy I don't take thing to heart but I will defend what I think is right and I will work to defeat those things which I think that are wrong. I have been doing this all of my life and I am not going to stop now.

I am not going to apologize to anyone or be made to be embarrassed about my feelings for my country. If others choose to talk about a subject they obviously don't have a clue about I am not going to stand by and allow them to continue without me calling them on the sometimes stupid and ignorant comments that they make.

I have no ill will against anyone here we should all be proud of where we come from and not look to say idiotic things about places that more than likely you have never been in their lives. The one about people having guns on every corner in the US is an example.

As for the options that I listed in my poll, my original intent was to be funny but I found out the some people can dish it out but they can't take it. Don't PM me asking if I was referring about you, the parties that I refer to know who I am speaking of and they should move from their glass houses. That is fine now I know the rules.


So like I stated in a previous post I am not going to stop posting because I few people here have thin skin and don't like it when people stand up to them. I will continue to defend what I think is right from not and until the day I die.

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So I should sit back and just let uninformed persons make disparaging remarks about the US? Yes, I am very proud of my country and I have fought to protect it's sovereignty which I will happily do again if call upon to do so. How many of you can say that you have or would do the same?
I would never fight for your country; or mine. :wave: One exception; I would fight for my family and friends and if that means fighting for
a nation to achieve that objection then I would.

The US is not a model nation; not even 60% of the way toward being a model nation. The US does good things, it does bad things and it does plain stupid things; most nations do. Anyone who thinks their nation is a model nation is misinformed and until you can say you have lived at least a year in every country of the world I'll take anything you say to that cause with the same regard as most of the other meaningless banter in this forum ;).

[Shaggy Hiker]

Some jokes can't be made by some people. The only option you had on the list that made me think you might not have been serious was the second one. As for the others, I expect conservatives to have a sense of superiority based on each of them. You aren't normally humorless, but if there is one underlying complaint against Americans it is arrogance....no wait, it's ignorance....or arrogance based on ignorance. Pretty much every complaint against America comes down to some form of that.

When someone acts the way they are expected to act, you can't really fault people for believing it was honestly meant.

[Xanith]

Your own posts demonstrate exactly why.

You place the United States on a pedestal. You extol its virtues; you compare it to other cultures and ways of life in a manner that is nothing but condescending. You deliberately set out to frame anything that does not conform to your partisan, patriotic viewpoint as somehow inferior.

There is a prevailing arrogance among Americans. And you have the naïvetè to wonder why you think the rest of the world hates you. I hope that one day you can see.

So simply being patriotic towards ones on country is perceived as arrogance? Are Americans not allowed to feel good about their own country? There has to be a reason why people get so bent out of shape when Americans extol the virtues of their own nation. I know I do not feel the same way when people from other nations express their own patriotism for their own nation. Why is it not ok for Americans to do the same without being perceived as being arrogant?

X

[Davadvice]

What I don't get is that you ask for the reason people don't like the US and then go of on one when they tell you?

IMO you are just looking for an argument and have been successful to a degree in that.

I can say that the majority of contact I have had with Americans lead me to believe that they are loud and obnoxious although most of these are on Xbox Live. I have had the unfortunate experience of meeting some face to face and I can only state that the experience was similar. There is a stereotypical image I have of an American. He is fat wearing a skip hat dragging a luggage case and hollering at the top of his voice and looking to see how many are watching. As an attention seeking individual I understand the last part of this however I do behave in a far more discreet manner and am not as fat yet.

I know and understand that there are nice American citizens who don’t fit this stereotype, migrants mainly or the small fat ones that have still to aspire to their Mom or Dad’s wonderful image.

Mark, I would say that we remember the bad things about everything and thus this is why people develop an image of certain things such as religions, countries and groups. If I came to the states with my friends and caused a scene 3 nights out of five then you would remember the loud Scot who acted like a prat not the fact that the other 3 guys with me behaved impeccably. This is a fact of life. The news paper today does not have nice things about the scout helping the old lady over the road it tells you about race hate crime and murders ect.

I don’t hate America, I don’t have the time too, nor the want I have 2 beautiful daughters and a gorgeous wife that keep my interests. I believe that you have an issue with certain people on here thus remembering the bad and tarring everyone the same thus reversing your theory in that you are not dealing with the fact it is you seeing it this way.

The fact you have fought for your country is a credit to you, however you may be seeing things form behind the wall and not looking objectively, America has it’s fair share of problems and the hate by certain groups is deserved IMO.

I think that Pen hit it on the head.

And I know that there will be the obligatory comment about the hairy arsed Scot wearing a kilt!

David

[Tom Sawyer]

The main problem that I have with America concerns the basic tone of the OP. There seems to be the idea out there that if you are against the bad things that America does, then you are similarly against all the good things as well.

If you believe that starting wars based on lies and needlessly causing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people is bad, then you must be against free speech as well. If you think that health care should be a basic right in a society, rather than a commodity to be profitted from, then you must think that repressive dictatorships are the highest form of virtue. If you're against demagogues trying to enshrine their hate-filled, narrow interpretation of their religion into the nation's laws, then you must be dismissive of the scientific accomplishments of other members of the country.

It's the pedantic all-or-nothing notion behind the phrase "do you hate America?" that I hate. There are things which I love about America and things that I hate about it and my opinions about the former have no bearing on my opinions about the latter. There are aspects where it's a model society and aspects where it's the anti-thesis of a model society, the same as every other country in the world. It's better than most in most areas and worse than some in other areas.

The "with us or against us" mentality is despicable though, and is an attitude that I'm very much against.

[SurfDemon]

Can I steal tom Sawyers post and pretend that I said it? I think he pretty much hit the nail on the head. :thumb:

Don't worry you were not the canadian citizen I was referring to in my post to pino.
Then I apologise unreserverdly.

As for the options that I listed in my poll, my original intent was to be funny but I found out the some people can dish it out but they can't take it.
Ah - Sorry, although you do normally have a good sense of humour I do see you as quite bullish when it comes to certain subjects, and I thought you where being serious. You see, that's the problem with the internet, no body language hints.

So simply being patriotic towards ones on country is perceived as arrogance? Are Americans not allowed to feel good about their own country?
Not at all (to the "So simply being patriotic towards ones on country is perceived as arrogance?" part of the quote). Americans have a lot of great things to be proud of. It is just that some of your countrymen use the word patriotism to disguise (amongst other things) blind devotion to your goverments policies (is it unpatriotic to disagree with the policy of the government), racism (anti-muslim, non-english, anti-French speaking sentiment - Freedom fries - we still laugh at that), and down-right illegal activity (retrospective immunity for breaking the law anyone?). That is not patriotism, it is facism.

I love my country(s), yet I can still see the problems they face and by facing and overcoming those problems, I can make them better countries for the next generation. I believe most American citizens probably feel the same about the US, however it is never the level headed ones that make it on the news. As soon as an international camera crew turns up, it's inbred racist old uncle Jack that leaps infront of the camera to be interviewed, and all we hear is how anyone who questions the government is a godamn pinko commy who hates our troops and loves Al-Quidea. How the French shouldn't have any say in international affairs, because we fought WWII just for them, and they'd all be speaking German now if it wasn't for the US of A. And how if anyone suggests in any shape or form that we should somehow look into the reasons behind 9/11 and try to understand why these attacks where carried out, then they're obviously Iraqi lovin' terrorists themselves who are jealous of American's freedoms.... :rolleyes:

Of course, it doesn't help matters that your President is cut from the same cloth.... ;)

[SurfDemon]

Sorry, Double post.

[schaefer]

Gambo I've been trying to read your posts but I can see that you are a product of the American Education system and have no ability to spell. Could you perhaps get a spell-checker from a foreign country to check your English before you post?

[nemaroller]

I can't remember a time in my lifetime when the US media focused on what the rest of the world thought of America. I certainly never cared as an individual; how many people in a country sit back one evening and think to themselves 'I wonder how the people of Kazakhstan think of us Americans?'.

Most people are simply Bush haters. The funny aspect of that is Bush was labeled as the silent missing president, out playing golf, not holding press meetings, generally leaving the country to continue forward as it had - hardly attending to anything other than his tax cut program. It was only until 9/11 did Bush become an actual president and had to make real decisions.

The faulty intelligence he was given did state the possibility was extremely high for Saddam to have obtain weapons of mass destruction. Saddam continuously was cited many times for violating UN mandated weapons inspections, and with the oil-for-food scandal, perhaps the suspicions were great enough to justify an overthrow - at the very least it was a big smoking gun.

Bush made his decision, and the rest of the populous, especially the democratic left. But the war is just an excuse, they are simply upset Bush won twice against their own presidential nominations. Frankly, I'm surprised as well.

[Xanith]

Not at all (to the "So simply being patriotic towards ones on country is perceived as arrogance?" part of the quote). Americans have a lot of great things to be proud of. It is just that some of your countrymen use the word patriotism to disguise (amongst other things) blind devotion to your goverments policies (is it unpatriotic to disagree with the policy of the government), racism (anti-muslim, non-english, anti-French speaking sentiment - Freedom fries - we still laugh at that), and down-right illegal activity (retrospective immunity for breaking the law anyone?). That is not patriotism, it is facism.


I don’t personally know anyone who blindly follows what the government says. The US was built on revolution and not trusting government. I know people on both sides of the political spectrum who feel this way. It’s perfectly American to not trust your government.

As far as racism goes I honestly don’t think the US corners the market in this category. You say the US is anti-Muslim, yet directly after 9/11 you didn’t see people burning down mosques or stories of people assaulting Muslims. You say the US is anti-French, yet you base this on Freedom Fries? This story was about one cafeteria inside the US capital renaming them for like a day, not some nationwide movement that the whole country bought into, what I find funny is that people in other nations actually thought this joke was real and indicative of all US sentiment (If you want to talk anti-French look at parts of your own Canada who absolutely hate and I mean hate the French in your own country for daring to try to separate).

No clue what you are referring to as far as illegal activity and “retrospective immunity” (I think you mean retroactive).


I love my country(s), yet I can still see the problems they face and by facing and overcoming those problems, I can make them better countries for the next generation. I believe most American citizens probably feel the same about the US, however it is never the level headed ones that make it on the news. As soon as an international camera crew turns up, it's inbred racist old uncle Jack that leaps infront of the camera to be interviewed, and all we hear is how anyone who questions the government is a godamn pinko commy who hates our troops and loves Al-Quidea. How the French shouldn't have any say in international affairs, because we fought WWII just for them, and they'd all be speaking German now if it wasn't for the US of A. And how if anyone suggests in any shape or form that we should somehow look into the reasons behind 9/11 and try to understand why these attacks where carried out, then they're obviously Iraqi lovin' terrorists themselves who are jealous of American's freedoms.... :rolleyes:


People generally believe what they want to believe and usually accept what the media tells them. So if a media organization (TV, internet, movies…etc) slants a certain way they are going to put forth those stories that support that, so it doesn’t surprise me how stereotypes can become fact in some people’s minds.

Questioning the government:
Most Americans don’t care if you question the government; in fact most people are expected to question what the government does. It’s what the US was built on, distrust of government. I think you are confusing those people who undermine their own government by giving aide, comfort, and support to the enemy. That’s not simple questioning.

WWII:
The US did give great support to Europe before, during, and after WWII. I think what most Americans are upset about are people trying to downplay or discredit the US and what they did during the war. Try to think how you feel when people think Canada never even participated in WWII to understand how Americans feel when people try to downplay or discredit their role.

9/11:
Americans want to understand 9/11 both the why’s and the how’s. Not sure what you are suggesting here, I sure hope you are not one of those 9/11 conspiracy nuts who think it was the Jews or the US government itself.

X

[Shaggy Hiker]

I certainly wouldn't have agreed with Bush for several of the decisions he made (in who to appoint to various things) had there been no war. And he just recently surpassed Reagan's record for most vacation days taken by a sitting president, so he's the alltime most absent president, though telecommuting isn't a bad thing, either. However, I particularly disliked the way he managed to squander America's good name. His father was much smarter with foreign affairs (and Clinton was better with domestic affairs, though he had plumper tastes than mine).

I think the whole point of that paragraph was that final joke. So let me wander off onto a different line. Being a big, bearded, white guy, other white guys expect me to share their views. This is helped because I can talk redneck with the best of them. One result is that I have no doubt that racism is alive and well in this country, because after people settle down a bit, their true feelings start coming out with the expectation that I share them. This got me thinking about stereotypes. I have been thinking about AI for a couple decades now, and observing what human brains do along those lines. It appears to me that the human brain is only really good at one thing: Pattern recognition. Even so-called "thinking" games, like chess, have proven to not involve much thought at all. Grand masters only evaluate one or two moves, and don't examine them in much depth. They can do this because they have played and studied so many games that they recognize board positions. Pattern recognition, again.

However, our brains work against us with pattern recognition. As anybody who thinks about it realizes, our senses are providing a deluge of information at every second. From this firehose, we are taking a sip that we call consciousness. The rest is ignored. In fact, the rest is often actively surpressed. There are some interesting studies on time dilation at moments of stress that show that time, as we perceive it, actually does slow down in moments of great stress. All attention is focused on a few inputs at the expense of the rest, which is called tunnel vision.

Tunnel vision isn't something that just occurs in moments of stress, though, it's how our brains decide which sip to take from the firehose. Our pattern recognizing brains are looking to fit the incoming stream into recognizable patterns, which is far easier than forming new patterns. Thus, once we believe any particular idea to be true, our brains will tend to emphasize supporting evidence, and ignore contrary evidence. Some of my work with Genetic Algorithms (GA) showed me that these blinders are affecting all aspects of my life, from mundane fish science to political philosophy. A GA, which is a simple construct at heart, has no such boundaries, and can find solutions that highly knowledgeable humans are mentally incapable of seeing.

From all I have done with this sort of thing, and observing conservatives, liberals, intellectuals, idiots (I spent a very enlightening afternoon in inadvertent bible study with a guy who was clearly insane, but that's another story), bigots, scientists, etc., I have reached the conclusion that whatever you believe, you're wrong. You may be wrong in every single piece, or only in a few aspects, but you are most certainly wrong. However, you have to make it through life, so you only need to make sure that the errors in your judgment are acceptable, and that you listen to other people. All significant advances in science come when we break through the blinders that constrain the things we can contemplate, such that we can see problems from a novel point of view.

If you ask for other opinions, don't complain about what you get, they aren't any more wrong than you are.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don’t personally know anyone who blindly follows what the government says. The US was built on revolution and not trusting government. I know people on both sides of the political spectrum who feel this way. It’s perfectly American to not trust your government.

As far as racism goes I honestly don’t think the US corners the market in this category. You say the US is anti-Muslim, yet directly after 9/11 you didn’t see people burning down mosques or stories of people assaulting Muslims. You say the US is anti-French, yet you base this on Freedom Fries? This story was about one cafeteria inside the US capital renaming them for like a day, not some nationwide movement that the whole country bought into, what I find funny is that people in other nations actually thought this joke was real and indicative of all US sentiment (If you want to talk anti-French look at parts of your own Canada who absolutely hate and I mean hate the French in your own country for daring to try to separate).

No clue what you are referring to as far as illegal activity and “retrospective immunity” (I think you mean retroactive).



People generally believe what they want to believe and usually accept what the media tells them. So if a media organization (TV, internet, movies…etc) slants a certain way they are going to put forth those stories that support that, so it doesn’t surprise me how stereotypes can become fact in some people’s minds.

Questioning the government:
Most Americans don’t care if you question the government; in fact most people are expected to question what the government does. It’s what the US was built on, distrust of government. I think you are confusing those people who undermine their own government by giving aide, comfort, and support to the enemy. That’s not simple questioning.

WWII:
The US did give great support to Europe before, during, and after WWII. I think what most Americans are upset about are people trying to downplay or discredit the US and what they did during the war. Try to think how you feel when people think Canada never even participated in WWII to understand how Americans feel when people try to downplay or discredit their role.

9/11:
Americans want to understand 9/11 both the why’s and the how’s. Not sure what you are suggesting here, I sure hope you are not one of those 9/11 conspiracy nuts who think it was the Jews or the US government itself.

X

Who are you, and what have you done with Xanith:mad:

[crptcblade]

You say the US is anti-French, yet you base this on Freedom Fries? This story was about one cafeteria inside the US capital renaming them for like a day, not some nationwide movement that the whole country bought into, what I find funny is that people in other nations actually thought this joke was real and indicative of all US sentiment

There's a pizza shop around my way that still has "Freedom Fries" on the menu. :afrog:

[schaefer]

Me and some friends polished off a bottle of Absynth the other night (sp?) and someone explained the meaing of life to us but unfortunately I cannot remember most of it. I think there was a bit about being good to your friends and try to aim for the bowl when you pee. I think as long as you follow those rules you should be OK.

[Suzzi]

You say the US is anti-French, yet you base this on Freedom Fries? This story was about one cafeteria inside the US capital renaming them for like a day, not some nationwide movement that the whole country bought into, what I find funny is that people in other nations actually thought this joke was real and indicative of all US sentiment (If you want to talk anti-French look at parts of your own Canada who absolutely hate and I mean hate the French in your own country for daring to try to separate).
Well someone could have told me we were joking! I've been sending the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys hate mail for over 6 years now! I obviously didn't get the memo.

People generally believe what they want to believe and usually accept what the media tells them. So if a media organization (TV, internet, movies…etc) slants a certain way they are going to put forth those stories that support that, so it doesn’t surprise me how stereotypes can become fact in some people’s minds.
That's why I watch Fox - For it's unbiased reporting. :)

WWII:
The US did give great support to Europe before, during, and after WWII. I think what most Americans are upset about are people trying to downplay or discredit the US and what they did during the war. Try to think how you feel when people think Canada never even participated in WWII to understand how Americans feel when people try to downplay or discredit their role.
Canada was in WWII?

9/11:
Americans want to understand 9/11 both the why’s and the how’s.
Yes! Unless they're pinko commy subversives like that preacher of Obama's. Pffft! What a ridiculous thing to suggest, the US hasn't hurt a single soul overseas in years. They're just ungrateful - that's what it is!

See what he said.....
He told his congregation on the Sunday after Sept. 11, 2001 that the United States had brought on al Qaeda's attacks because of its own terrorism.

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost," he told his congregation.

[crptcblade]

Canada was in WWII?
The second one :afrog:

[Suzzi]

The second one :afrog:
There's more than one Canada?

[crptcblade]

There's more than one Canada?
Quebec, aka Canada's Goiter

[silentthread]

I love America! It's beautiful, and it has football. :-)

In order of favorite teams.....
Go Dolphins! Go Giants! Go Raiders!

[visualAd]

Canada doesn't exist; everyone knows it is part of Morocco.

[crptcblade]

Canada doesn't exist; everyone knows it is part of Morocco.

http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=63055&stc=1&d=1206404314

:afrog:

[MaximilianMayrhofer]

:roflmaohahazomgwthpwntforevernoobnadians:

[FunkyDexter]

I have fought to protect it's sovereigntyReally!!?? You must be extremely old. I'm not aware that the USA's sovereignty has been threatened in well over a century. I believe us Brits were the last to do it in the 19th century (and I'm not sure we really threatened your sovereignty, even then, though we did give the Whitehouse a quick makeover). I think what you mean is that you have fought to protect it's interests.

The question is an interesting one though. I don't believe many people really hate the United States itself. Some hate your foreign policies, some hate your government, some hate the people, some are envious of your success, some hate Bush (though personally I think your single ladies are one of your finest assets).

Also, with the question as posted you have to keep in mind that perception is everything. Intentions and reality are an irrelevance, people will love or hate you based on what they think you intended or did.

With the above two points in mind, here are a few reasons why people "hate America":-
1. Jealous of your success: Yeah, we need to fess up and admit it, we are bothered that you can afford bigger homes than us, drive bigger cars than us, eat bigger meals than us, have more TV stations than us... well, you get the picture. Now, morally we don't really have a right to feel jealous, but then no-one ever does have a right to feel jealous about anything, doesn't stop it happening though. I'm afraid if you want the benefits of success you're going to have to live with the jealousy too.
2. You patriotism: There's nothing wrong with patriotism. What's wrong, though, is when you bleat about it the whole time. Seriously, it's boring. You know how people tend to hate religious folks proselytising the whole time? Well we feel the same about you. I don't begrudge you thinking your country is wonderful any more than I begrudge anyone's right to worship their god, but why do you have to keep telling me how wonderful you think it is? I don't care.
3. Your arrogance: I'm sorry but you guys really do come across as arrogant. Your original poll options are a case in point. You may have meant it to be funny, but to me it reads as if you're saying "look at all the wonderful ways in which we're better than you". You're aproach to foreign policy in the build up to Iraq was another case in point. You abandoned the very concepts of international concensus of action as though they were a mere inconvenience to you. You basically said to the world "We're right and your wrong (unless you agree with us, of course) and we don't care what you think because we've got bigger guns than you". If, to pick a completely hypothetical example, Algeria had aproached an invasion of Morocco in that way, you can bet the UN would be passing resolutions against them and we'd probably have started the air campaign by now.
4. Your ignorance: you guys come across as ignorant of affairs outside your borders. Hell, your president is happy to invade a country without even bothering to look up the pronunciation of it's name first. I suspect you're not really that much more ignorant than the rest of though, if at all. I couldn't tell you what the capital of Uzbekhistan is (or even how to spell Oozbeckystan) without looking it up on google first. But you somehow appear more ignorant. I have no idea why.
5. Creeping cultural incursion: It's frustrating when I see a kids commercial and all the accents in it are American. It's annoying when there are more burger outlets in my city's centre than there are fish and chip shops. It's downright bloody infuriating when I have to pick "English (United Kingdom)" as a language option when I install software instead of just plain "English". As with 1. this is largely a case of envy, but that doesn't make it any less annoying. Britains historically guilty of this too, but at least we gave the world cricket and steam power, you just gave us obesity and bad sitcoms.
6. Guns: I posted in another thread that I didn't think banning guns in America would work but you've got to admit, your kind of out of synch with the rest of the Westernised world where gun laws are concerned. Bound to cause a bit of tension.
7. Football: You kick the ball, damnit!! The clues in the title!! And while we're about it, Baseball is correctly called rounders... and you use a much smaller bat.

I think I should reiterate as a footnote that it's all about perception. Some of the points above a barely true and they're certainly unfair, but they do represent how you are percieved. So what to do about it? You can either post on forums about how unreasonable the rest of the world is to hate you (in which case I guarentee that you will continue to be hated) or you can look at how you are percieved and try to tackle those perceptions. The former is more fun but the latter may actually result in you being less hated. Show some sympathy towards other nations cultures. Learn as much geography and foreign history as possible. Acknowledge your country's failings from time to time. Stop calling it football. Realistically, you'll have to do more than other other countrys in order to achieve a simliar perception, but that's the price of being liked when you're top of the heap.



PS. Ooh, forgot one. Learn to bloody spell! We came up with language so what we say goes as far as spelling is concerned. That extends to the incorrect use of words like 'Purse' and 'Pants' too.

[SurfDemon]

I think you missed out the biggest reasons..........stop your human rights abuses (torturing people and detaining people without trial) and attacking/over-throwing goverments who don't agree with you.....

I think those two would go a long way.....

[Suzzi]

Quebec, aka Canada's Goiter
Ah - So that must be the French Canada I keep hearing about. I didn't realise it was a seperate country (much like French Guiana and British Guiana).

Hang on, I just looked at a map and there's another country up there called "British Columbia", does that mean the other Columbia, (the one in Africa) is actually "French Columbia?".

hang on!!!!, while I'm looking at the map, there's a "Nova Scotia" which (unless I am very much mistaken) is French for "New Scotland". Do the Brits know that the French are just going around claiming countries and naming them after British ones. is this some kind of sick joke?

[crptcblade]

I think you missed out the biggest reasons..........stop your human rights abuses (torturing people and detaining people without trial) and attacking/over-throwing goverments who don't agree with you.....

I think those two would go a long way.....
You have to crawl before you can walk. I think we'll start with working on our accent.

[visualAd]

you just gave us obesity and bad sitcoms


:lol: :lol:

[schoolbusdriver]

Do the Brits know that the French are just going around claiming countries and naming them after British ones. is this some kind of sick joke? The french have no imagination - except the self delusion of being the worlds best lovers. They even tried copying the Union Jack and .... well google for "french flag" and see for yourself. Their flag should be white stripes on a white background. They smell too - hence the need for all the perfume manufacturers. The best that's come out of france is failure.

[crptcblade]

The best that's come out of france is failure.
and Gerard Depardieu. :mad:

[Mark Gambo]

Gambo I've been trying to read your posts but I can see that you are a product of the American Education system and have no ability to spell. Could you perhaps get a spell-checker from a foreign country to check your English before you post?

I'll try that, but when I get agitated spelling and grammar go out the windows unfortunately :(

[Mark Gambo]

. . . Ah - Sorry, although you do normally have a good sense of humour I do see you as quite bullish when it comes to certain subjects, and I thought you where being serious. You see, that's the problem with the internet, no body language hints. . .

Hey Surf, how about I do this next Time

;-)

Do you think the "slow" people will get the point

[Mark Gambo]

. . . I'm not aware that the USA's sovereignty has been threatened in well over a century. . .

You are joking me right?

[visualAd]

You are joking me right?

The principle that the state exercises absolute power over its territory, system of government, and population. ..


I do believe he is not joking; you appear to misunderstander the meaning of sovereignty.

[FunkyDexter]

I do believe he is not joking;I do believe VisualAd is right

[Xanith]

I am going to have to agree with Mark on this one. The outcome in the Pacific during WWII could have been very different had a few things have happened differently. During this time I do believe that US sovereignty was threatened. So while you cannot say during the last 100 years you might be able to get away with saying during the last 63 years, after the bomb was dropped the world dynamic changed drastically.

X

[FunkyDexter]

Oh, come on.

The Japanese strategy in WW2 was never to invade the US. They wanted to protect their Asian interests and to do that they attempted to set up a wide naval perimiter and make it difficult for the US to attack them. Even while they were doing this they knew that the US would eventually overpower them but they hoped they would be able to hold the US back long enough for them to negotiate a beneficial peace which would allow them to keep their mainland holdings. Pearl Harbour was intended to delay the US's ability to respond as part of that strategy or (and this was their most optimistic projection) that the US would lack the stomach for a fight and acknowledge their claims on the spot. It was never meant as a precursor to invasion.

This is well documented, by the way.

[Xanith]

Oh, come on.

The Japanese strategy in WW2 was never to invade the US. They wanted to protect their Asian interests and to do that they attempted to set up a wide naval perimiter and make it difficult for the US to attack them. Even while they were doing this they knew that the US would eventually overpower them but they hoped they would be able to hold the US back long enough for them to negotiate a beneficial peace which would allow them to keep their mainland holdings. Pearl Harbour was intended to delay the US's ability to respond as part of that strategy or (and this was their most optimistic projection) that the US would lack the stomach for a fight and acknowledge their claims on the spot. It was never meant as a precursor to invasion.

This is well documented, by the way.

Hawaii is part of the US and while you are right that there was no real plan to invade the continental US some feel there was a plan to invade and conquer Hawaii. This however was put out of consideration due to US victories (most notably Midway). Had the Japanese been successful in their campaigns in the Pacific some historians believe that there was a possibility of an attack an invasion of Hawaii (although you are correct that most feel that Midway was the farthest Japan was willing to go).

My point is had the Pacific war had gone bad for the US their soverienty could have been threatened by Japan through an attack on Hawaii.

X

[Mark Gambo]

I do believe he is not joking; you appear to misunderstander the meaning of sovereignty.

I guess crashing planes into major buildings being or daily intrusions via the Internet in order to collapse the US government doesn't qualify.

[Pino]

Mark are you really 20? You seem to have a lot of 'anger' (wrong word maybe) for a 20 year old.

Pino

[Mark Gambo]

Really!!?? You must be extremely old. I'm not aware that the USA's sovereignty has been threatened in well over a century. . .

Hey do you remember Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) I am quite sure that it was in all of the papers. Some of you Brits seem to suffer from a persecution complex (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=persecution+complex).


Hmmm, Lets do a little math: 2008 - 1941 = 67 years.

[Mark Gambo]

Mark are you really 20? You seem to have a lot of 'anger' (wrong word maybe) for a 20 year old.

Pino
No, my friend I am quite a bit older that 20, my "birthday" is the date I started my current job! As for my "anger", I get angry when ignorant people talk about issues they have not idea what they are talking about ;-), OK Pino.

[Pino]

Why did you assume Dexter is a brit?

[Pino]

Also why do you assume people are ignorant because they don't agree with you. You can be wrong too just like all of us, or are you special? You obviously love your country and thats fine but dont ask for opinions that make you angry. I dont want people falling out and I dont want to see this thread turn into a bitchy debate.

Pino

[Mark Gambo]

I'd like to hear where you fought, because whether your fight was productive or not could be in question. :D . . .

I would love to tell you where but unfortunately I can't, sorry.

So if it bothers you so much that I am a big "flag waver" then do yourself a favor don't read my posts better yet there is a function on VBF where you can ignore a particular user, I suggest that you utilize this feature because I am not going away and I will continue to espouse the virtues of the US whenever it comes under attack.by bombs or by the pen (or the keyboard).

. . . Can't take the heat? You know the saying...

What line in my statement, conveys to you that I can't "Take the Heat"? Your statement makes no sense.

[Mark Gambo]

Oh, come on.

The Japanese strategy in WW2 was never to invade the US . . .

I think destroying war ships and killing thousands of poeple qualifies as an invasion (http://www.dictionary.net/invasion).

[FunkyDexter]

Hawaii is part of the US and while ... Agreed and I believe that Hawaii actually was included within the perimiter the Japanese would have like to create in an ideal world. So was the chain of Island that extend Westward from Alaska (can't remember what they're called). I really don't think that represents a threat to the US's sovereignty, though. Had they managed to occupy them (which they were a million miles from achieving) they would almost certainly have been bargained back to the US as part of a peace deal. To reiterate, the Japanese had no intention of reducing the US to some sort of subservient state (which is what I think most people would call a loss of sovereignty), they were trying to achieve the most favourable peace possible.

The worst case for the US would have been if the Allies lost with Hitler dominating Europe and West Asia, Italy dominating Africa and Japan dominating East Asia and the Pacific. But the US would still have retained it's sovereign status, albeit as something of a political pariah. It's possible that a subsequent conflict would have seen an invasion of the continental US but it was simply not on the cards in WW2.

I guess crashing planes into major buildings being or daily intrusions via the Internet in order to collapse the US government doesn't qualifyNo. They don't. 9/11 represented a threat to your security, certainly, but it really doesn't come close to representing a threat to your sovereignty. As for internet attacks, I'm not sure what your referring to. I have no doubt the US Government (and every other government) is subject to lots of attacks but I'm not conviced any of them would represent a threat to your sovereignty. If you have a specific example in mind then post the details, I'd love to read about it (I'm not being sarcastic here, I really would find it fascinating).

[Mark Gambo]

Also why do you assume people are ignorant because they don't agree with you. . .

No Pino, I don't think people who are ignorant just because we disagree, I think people who make generalizations about things that they have never witnessed and only rely on the half truths of other to formulate their opinions of an entire country.

You can be wrong too just like all of us, or are you special?

Oh course I am wrong sometimes, but do you have strong beliefs that you are passionate about?

. . . You obviously love your country and thats fine but dont ask for opinions that make you angry. . .

As I have probably said at least three time in this thread, my initial intent for this post was to be funny, but that notion crashed and burned quickly :-(

. . . I dont want people falling out and I dont want to see this thread turn into a bitchy debate.

Pino

Sorry to inform you of this but I think it already has "turned into a bitchy debate. But I for one enjoy a spirited debate.

[SurfDemon]

I guess crashing planes into major buildings being or daily intrusions via the Internet in order to collapse the US government doesn't qualify.
You guess correctly, it doesn't qualify as a threat to sovereignty.... but even if it did, and you were fighting to defend against that, what where you doing, manning anti-aircraft guns on September 11th 2001?.

I will have to agree with X though, Pearl Harbour was a plausable threat to Hawaii, so the last time was 67 years ago.

Either way it doesn't really matter. I strongly believe that if you have served in the military or not, does not effect the value of your opinion. So it is a moot point. To imply that people who don't have a military record are some how unpatriotic or not willing to defend their country is just silly. Many people work to make their country a better place without ever joining up. What about the US businessman who goes to the trouble of learning Japanese etiquet in order to strengthen ties with Japan, the US health care worker who volunteers in Africa, hell, even the student backpacking around Europe who leaves some Europeans with a better opinion of the US after seeing that he's not like the stereotype they always see on TV.
All of these people are making the US more secure in their own way.

But, like I say it's a moot point. I believe that Gambo just mispoke (to use a Hillary Clinton approach) when he said Sovereignty, and he just meant that he served in the armed forces. I think we are getting too tied up in symantics.

[zaza]

I've just got back from Pakistan and quite a few things struck me about the people out there:

1) They are incredibly friendly and hospitable; I visited a family (8 people) in Balakot whose house collapsed in the earthquake and they've since spent a year living in a tent and another in a tin shack. They don't have much, but what they do have they insisted upon sharing with me.

2) In general they are quite pi$$ed off about the image their country has abroad; that all we ever hear about is bombs and Taliban and mullahs. I've felt more threatened in New York than I did in Islamabad, and more likely to get shot in Indiana than in the North-West Frontier. Of course there are places where you can go to find trouble, but that's the same of every country.

3) They're pretty modern as a nation. They like mobile phones, Ray-Bans and jeans. About 30% of the women have no head covering at all and about the same proportion of the men are clean-shaven. There are a few women who wear the full head and face covering, but I've seen just as many in Sparkhill in Birmingham. I was never approached by a screaming mullah.

4) In general, they feel that Muslims are under attack. Firstly, part of their faith is something called the Ummah; namely that all Muslims are "brothers" and an assault on one is an assault on them all. But beyond this, they hear the rhetoric of how the Taliban are a bunch of bomb-loving America-haters and how Pakistan is full of crazed lunatics and they know that it isn't the case. I've met some Taliban - it's a bit like saying "I've met someone from Virginia", it is more about race than religious fanaticism - they aren't all signed up to the extremist views that some of their fellows have. Consequently, they believe that if Western media is portraying a biased view of what's going on in Pakistan, then they're likely to be biased regarding Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. From there, it's a short step to feeling that the West has got an agenda.
Many Pakistanis are buying land and property in Islamabad, because they're actually worried that it might cease to be safe for them in the West.

5) They're hearing reports that Obama is talking about going in to Pakistan next if he wins the election. Coincidentally, they've recently made significant oil discoveries.

6) There's a lot of conspiracy theory. It's fairly typical of people to want to blame somebody else for their problems, but combined with the "evidence" that they think they've seen, a lot of Pakistanis believe that the US set out to destabilise Iraq, seize the oil and kill some Muslims, and that the same is planned for Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan. I've explained that actually, America is neither powerful enough nor sufficiently well organised to take on all this at once and that the situation in Iraq nowadays is very likely to be through incompetence, over-confidence and a lack of direction than some hidden agenda. For the most part, they can see that this is also likely to be true.



Basically my point is that we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that people over there are stupid, nor backward, ill-informed, fundamentalist or in any way different from us. There's a small minority that seem to think it's OK to want to go out and kill other people and spread fear and hatred, but it is far from the majority. They also think that there is a similar minority group in the West; the difference is that in the West, that group is in charge.

[Mark Gambo]

FunkyDexter,

What about Japanese (http://www.militarymuseum.org/HistoryWWII.html) (Here (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1479) also) and German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_North_America_during_World_War_II) invasions of the US mainland during WW 2?

[Mark Gambo]

. . . But, like I say it's a moot point. I believe that Gambo just mispoke (to use a Hillary Clinton approach) when he said Sovereignty, and he just meant that he served in the armed forces. I think we are getting too tied up in symantics.

One of the few thing that I will agree with you in this thread :-)

[SurfDemon]

One of the few thing that I will agree with you in this thread :-)
Sorry, it was a momentary lapse ;)

[Mark Gambo]

Sorry, it was a momentary lapse ;)


I understand, you probably haven't been feeling well lately, ok I will go easy on you until you are feeling better ;-)

[Xanith]

Agreed and I believe that Hawaii actually was included within the perimiter the Japanese would have like to create in an ideal world. So was the chain of Island that extend Westward from Alaska (can't remember what they're called). I really don't think that represents a threat to the US's sovereignty, though. Had they managed to occupy them (which they were a million miles from achieving) they would almost certainly have been bargained back to the US as part of a peace deal. To reiterate, the Japanese had no intention of reducing the US to some sort of subservient state (which is what I think most people would call a loss of sovereignty), they were trying to achieve the most favourable peace possible.

The worst case for the US would have been if the Allies lost with Hitler dominating Europe and West Asia, Italy dominating Africa and Japan dominating East Asia and the Pacific. But the US would still have retained it's sovereign status, albeit as something of a political pariah. It's possible that a subsequent conflict would have seen an invasion of the continental US but it was simply not on the cards in WW2.



No you are right Japan had no intention on “taking over” the entire US through mainland invasion. However you must concede that the possibility of an attack and occupation of Hawaii would constitute a threat to the sovereignty of the US. Included in this (which I totally forgot about, thanks for the reminder) was Japan’s military takeover of a couple of the Aleutian Islands in Alaska.

So while you are correct Japan could not possibly cause a loss of sovereignty to the US, it did however pose a threat, which is what you had originally posted.

X

[FunkyDexter]

I've just got back from Pakistan... That's really interesting. I've got quite a few Lebanese freinds myself and, when Israel went into Lebanon last year, I remember reading all the opinions (not here but generally) about how the Lebanese were all a bunch of terrorists (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) and thinking it was really weird. After all, the people I know like partying, shopping, playing computer games and drinking (some muslims are less devout than others, I guess :rolleyes:). They're educated, moderate and laid back. Basically, they're me! Oh, and their girls are drop dead gorgeous. It's also worth mentioning that a significant proportion (maybe a third of my freinds) aren't actually muslims.

Aleutian Islands Yep, that's 'em :).

So while you are correct Japan could not possibly cause a loss of sovereignty to the US, it did however pose a threat, which is what you had originally posted.That reads like a contradiction to me. A threat isn't real unless there's a possibility of it coming to pass. The US's sovereignty can't have been threatened unless they were in danger of losing it... and they weren't, at any point. As has been mentioned already, though, we're in serious danger of descending into pedantry here though.

I think destroying war ships and killing thousands of poeple qualifies as an invasion. I don't think it does qualify. It doesn't even meet the definition you've linked to, unless you're talking about definition 3 which really isn't covering a military invasion but rathaer talks about invasive diseases etc. Unless troops go in on the ground I don't think I'd call it an invasion. However, if, in your terms, air attacks, baloons and damage shipping etc. constitute an invasion, then, yes, the US was not only under threat of invasion during WW2 but the threat came to fruition, I just disagree with your terms. It was not, however, under threat of losing it's sovereignty, which is what you declared you had fought to protect.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Included in this (which I totally forgot about, thanks for the reminder) was Japan’s military takeover of a couple of the Aleutian Islands in Alaska.

So while you are correct Japan could not possibly cause a loss of sovereignty to the US, it did however pose a threat, which is what you had originally posted.

X

That's pretty ironic. Technically, it was an invasion of the US mainland, but the Japanese then left. Turns out, the Japanese didn't like those islands any better than we do. Is it a threat to soveriegnty when somebody takes something you really don't much like yourself?

I suppose it does. The only reason the US holds onto those miserable chunks of rock is because of territorial waters and fishing rights. We don't give a rats arse about them otherwise.

[schoolbusdriver]

Betamax.

[Foxer]

Americans, generally speaking, are arrogant isolationists. Luckily there are exceptions and many USA members in CC forum are worldly enough to realise there is a small chance there are better countries to live in apart from the USA. They may ultimately decide not - but will at least consider the notion.

What I do LIKE about America is the lack of "tall poppy syndrome" that plaugues Australia's society.

[visualAd]

I guess crashing planes into major buildings being or daily intrusions via the Internet in order to collapse the US government doesn't qualify.
No, they don't.

[visualAd]

I've just got back from Pakistan and quite a few things struck me about the people out there:

1) They are incredibly friendly and hospitable; I visited a family (8 people) in Balakot whose house collapsed in the earthquake and they've since spent a year living in a tent and another in a tin shack. They don't have much, but what they do have they insisted upon sharing with me.

2) In general they are quite pi$$ed off about the image their country has abroad; that all we ever hear about is bombs and Taliban and mullahs. I've felt more threatened in New York than I did in Islamabad, and more likely to get shot in Indiana than in the North-West Frontier. Of course there are places where you can go to find trouble, but that's the same of every country.

3) They're pretty modern as a nation. They like mobile phones, Ray-Bans and jeans. About 30% of the women have no head covering at all and about the same proportion of the men are clean-shaven. There are a few women who wear the full head and face covering, but I've seen just as many in Sparkhill in Birmingham. I was never approached by a screaming mullah.

4) In general, they feel that Muslims are under attack. Firstly, part of their faith is something called the Ummah; namely that all Muslims are "brothers" and an assault on one is an assault on them all. But beyond this, they hear the rhetoric of how the Taliban are a bunch of bomb-loving America-haters and how Pakistan is full of crazed lunatics and they know that it isn't the case. I've met some Taliban - it's a bit like saying "I've met someone from Virginia", it is more about race than religious fanaticism - they aren't all signed up to the extremist views that some of their fellows have. Consequently, they believe that if Western media is portraying a biased view of what's going on in Pakistan, then they're likely to be biased regarding Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. From there, it's a short step to feeling that the West has got an agenda.
Many Pakistanis are buying land and property in Islamabad, because they're actually worried that it might cease to be safe for them in the West.

5) They're hearing reports that Obama is talking about going in to Pakistan next if he wins the election. Coincidentally, they've recently made significant oil discoveries.

6) There's a lot of conspiracy theory. It's fairly typical of people to want to blame somebody else for their problems, but combined with the "evidence" that they think they've seen, a lot of Pakistanis believe that the US set out to destabilise Iraq, seize the oil and kill some Muslims, and that the same is planned for Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan. I've explained that actually, America is neither powerful enough nor sufficiently well organised to take on all this at once and that the situation in Iraq nowadays is very likely to be through incompetence, over-confidence and a lack of direction than some hidden agenda. For the most part, they can see that this is also likely to be true.



Basically my point is that we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that people over there are stupid, nor backward, ill-informed, fundamentalist or in any way different from us. There's a small minority that seem to think it's OK to want to go out and kill other people and spread fear and hatred, but it is far from the majority. They also think that there is a similar minority group in the West; the difference is that in the West, that group is in charge.
Even Mendhak and I assumed you would be coming back in parts. :blush: //throws away the box for your head. I know this thread is about the stereo type of the Americans and the misconceptions of those who hold that stereotype.

But other nations, races and people are also stereotyped in a bad way. Many of them are formed by the behaviours of minorities rather than majorites.

[FunkyDexter]

Tall Poppy Syndrome?

[nemaroller]

Tall Poppy Syndrome?
I was wondering the same...

[grilkip]

Stick out of the poppy field (be more visible than others) and get your head chopped off.

I'm assuming that's what he means, there is a similar local saying.

[Mark Gambo]

No, they don't.

Your opinion and you know what they say about opinions, right?

[penagate]

Your opinion and you know what they say about opinions, right?
Yeah: don't worry about trying to have your own, just go to Mark Gambo. He's got plenty to spare. ;)

[Mark Gambo]

Yeah: don't worry about trying to have your own, just go to Mark Gambo. He's got plenty to spare. ;)

Hey Pen, I guess since I don't agree with you, then my opinion doesn't matter, huh? That is very elitist attitude, wouldn't you say? Oh yeah, I forgot you don't consider yourself as an elitist, but you seem to think that your opinions are the only thing that matter. So since I don't think and talk (in this case write) like you consider me a Proletarian and just like in the old Soviet Union if I don't shut up and speak the party line, the secret police will come and take me away to the gulag never to be seen and heard of again.

[penagate]

You seem very defensive. My comment was meant merely in jest.

[Mark Gambo]

You seem very defensive. My comment was meant merely in jest.


So was mine ;-)

[penagate]

I guess Shaggy was right: Some people can't make some jokes. That seems to include both of us at the moment. :D

[Mark Gambo]

I guess Shaggy was right: Some people can't make some jokes. That seems to include both of us at the moment. :D


We are allowed to have a "Spirited" debate and still remain friendly, right?

[penagate]

Of course. Although I am not really sure what this debate is now about, whether it is a debate any longer, or even whether it was ever a debate at all. Perhaps there is one in disguise, but no-one has uncovered it yet.


Stick out of the poppy field (be more visible than others) and get your head chopped off.

I'm assuming that's what he means, there is a similar local saying.
The tallest poppy is the first to be cut. Essentially, although we encourage everyone to have a go, if someone actually does do well they are then criticised for it. I think we may have inherited this culture from the British; I'm not sure. Certainly we have 'perfected' it.

The only exception to this seems to be sportspeople, although even they are not really immune these days.

To be honest, I don't see this as a problem. It keeps Australia, as a society, rather down-to-earth. You can have your dreams, but don't let them corrupt you.

[FunkyDexter]

The tallest poppy is the first to be cut. Essentially, although we encourage everyone to have a go, if someone actually does do well they are then criticised for it. I think we may have inherited this culture from the British; I'm not sure. Oh, I see. Yeah, you definitely got that from us and I suspect we'd perfected it long before we gave it to you. Actually, one of the best things about the US is that they celebrate success instead of condemning it.

[Mark Gambo]

. . . Actually, one of the best things about the US is that they celebrate success instead of condemning it.


FunkyD,
You feeling ok today? ;) :D

[MaximilianMayrhofer]

Different views of sovereignties

There exist vastly differing views on the moral bases of sovereignty. These views translate into various bases for legal systems:

* Partisans of the divine right of kings argue that the monarch is sovereign by divine right, and not by the agreement of the people. Taken to its conclusion, this may translate into a system of absolute monarchy.
* The second book of Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Du Contrat Social, ou Principes du droit politique (1762) deals with sovereignty and its rights. Sovereignty, or the general will, is inalienable, for the will cannot be transmitted; it is indivisible, since it is essentially general; it is infallible and always right, determined and limited in its power by the common interest; it acts through laws. Law is the decision of the general will in regard to some object of common interest, but though the general will is always right and desires only good, its judgment is not always enlightened, and consequently does not always see wherein the common good lies; hence the necessity of the legislator. But the legislator has, of himself, no authority; he is only a guide who drafts and proposes laws, but the people alone (that is, the sovereign or general will) has authority to make and impose them.
* Democracy is based on the concept of popular sovereignty. Representative democracies permit (against Rousseau's thought) a transfer of the exercise of sovereignty from the people to the parliament or the government. Parliamentary sovereignty refers to a representative democracy where the Parliament is, ultimately, the source of sovereignty, and not the executive power.
* Anarchists and some libertarians deny the sovereignty of states and governments. Anarchists often argue for a specific individual kind of sovereignty, such as the Anarch as a sovereign individual. Salvador Dalí, for instance, talked of "anarcho-monarchist" (as usual, tongue in cheek); Antonin Artaud of Heliogabalus: Or, The Crowned Anarchist; Max Stirner of The Ego and Its Own; Georges Bataille and Jacques Derrida of a kind of "antisovereignty". Therefore, anarchists join a classical conception of the individual as sovereign of himself, which forms the basis of political consciousness. The unified consciousness is sovereignty over one's own body, as Nietzsche demonstrated (see also Pierre Klossowski's book on Nietzsche and the Vicious Circle). See also self-ownership and Sovereignty of the individual.
* Republican form of government acknowledges that the sovereign power is founded in the people, individually, not in the collective or whole body of free citizens, as in a democratic form. Thus no majority can deprive a minority of their sovereign rights and powers.
* Imperialists hold a universal view of sovereignty where power exists with those of conservative or right-wing ideology, who defend individual states, territories and people from those who wish to subvert them or hand over sovereignty to left-wing forms of government, such as Marxism-Federalism. In alliance, and from any level, these people legislate for laws which grant the rights to capitalism, nationalism, hereditary power and royalism.

The key element of sovereignty in the legalistic sense is that of exclusivity of jurisdiction.

Specifically, when a decision is made by a sovereign entity, it cannot generally be overruled by a higher authority. Further, it is generally held that another legal element of sovereignty requires not only the legal right to exercise power, but the actual exercise of such power. ("No de jure sovereignty without de facto sovereignty.") In other words, neither claiming/being proclaimed Sovereign, nor merely exercising the power of a Sovereign is sufficient; sovereignty requires both elements.

Courtesy of wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty#Different_views_of_sovereignties)

I'm afraid that none of these views on sovereignty include a mandate against destroying buildings. If we expand it to include that, then i'm afraid that the US is threatened every time a tourist or illegal immigrant crashes their car or robs a liquor store. :ehh:

[Mark Gambo]

. . . I'm afraid that none of these views on sovereignty include a mandate against destroying buildings. If we expand it to include that, then i'm afraid that the US is threatened every time a tourist or illegal immigrant crashes their car or robs a liquor store. :ehh:


or crashes a plane into a building :eek: :eek2:

[TheBigB]

or crashes a plane into a building :eek: :eek2:
What's with you and 9/11?
Is that the only argument you find rock-solid?

Now, I would like you to take some time and give a serious look at this movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE
I'm not saying they have the answers, I'm not saying nothing happened but this is a perfect example of looking from another point of view.

[grilkip]

What's with you and 9/11?
Is that the only argument you find rock-solid?

Now, I would like you to take some time and give a serious look at this movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE
I'm not saying they have the answers, I'm not saying nothing happened but this is a perfect example of looking from another point of view.That movie is a trap to make you look stupid. :D

[Mark Gambo]

What's with you and 9/11?

Well, lets see, hmm, my cousin, who I grew up with, was on the 101 Floor in Tower 2, my best friend was on the 89 Floor also in Tower 2, and a life long friend who just happened to be a NYC Police Officer made it to the 55 Floor on September 11, 201. Sadly, they all died that day. There remains have never been recovered, thier families will not have any peace until they "come Home". 9/11 to people who weren't there and/or effected, is just a tragic day to people like you. Try explaining to your children why they can't see the two most recognizable building in NYC from their bedroom window any more. Try explaining why cousin Tommy will not be coming over to play with them anymore. People like you live in a small world and things that don't effect you don't matter to you. I normally would respond to an asinine statement for the likes of you but I will make an exception for you. As for the rest of your post I really don't care about your conspiracy theories, I know what happened that day, I was there. I saw two planes hit the World Trade Center Towers.



To put it succinctly:

You sir are mis-informed!

[Mark Gambo]

That movie is a trap to make you look stupid. :D


G, He doesn't need any help in that department!!

[TheBigB]

Well, lets see, hmm, my cousin, who I grew up with, was on the 101 Floor in Tower 2, my best friend was on the 89 Floor also in Tower 2, and a life long friend who just happened to be a NYC Police Officer made it to the 55 Floor on September 11, 201. Sadly, they all died that day. There remains have never been recovered, thier families will not have any peace until they "come Home". 9/11 to people who weren't there and/or effected, is just a tragic day to people like you. Try explaining to your children why they can't see the two most recognizable building in NYC from their bedroom window any more. Try explaining why cousin Tommy will not be coming over to play with them anymore. People like you live in a small world and things that don't effect you don't matter to you. I normally would respond to an asinine statement for the likes of you but I will make an exception for you. As for the rest of your post I really don't care about your conspiracy theories, I know what happened that day, I was there. I saw two planes hit the World Trade Center Towers.



To put it succinctly:

You sir are an idiot!
Thanks for the insult.

I know it's terrible, though I have to admit I haven't lost anyone.

I don't blame you for not getting over it.
I just don't think you should put it as an argument all the time.

And I apologize if I have hurt or insulted you.
That was not my intention.

[Mark Gambo]

Thanks for the insult.

I know it's terrible, though I have to admit I haven't lost anyone.

I don't blame you for not getting over it.
I just don't think you should put it as an argument all the time.

And I apologize if I have hurt or insulted you.
That was not my intention.


I am sorry that I unloaded on you but to me and my fellow New Yorkers (Democrats, Republican, Communist, Right to Life, etc), 9/11 was an attack on our sovereignty. I will fight with every ounce of strength in my body on this issue. I know throughout the ages European countries were invaded and pillaged but this hasn't happened since World War Two and most likely nobody on this forum lived through those times. People in the NYC Area lived through their version of the Crusades and World War 2, so we know what it probably was like at least for one day/night. Some people will relive that day every day for the rest of their lives.

I don't care what the dictionary says, we were attacked, people were killed, and they will do it again one day.

[SurfDemon]

I am sorry that I unloaded on you but to me and my fellow New Yorkers (Democrats, Republican, Communist, Right to Life, etc), 9/11 was an attack on our sovereignty. I will fight with every ounce of strength in my body on this issue. I know throughout the ages European countries were invaded and pillaged but this hasn't happened since World War Two and most likely nobody on this forum lived through those times. People in the NYC Area lived through their version of the Crusades and World War 2, so we know what it probably was like at least for one day/night. Some people will relive that day every day for the rest of their lives.

I don't care what the dictionary says, we were attacked, people were killed, and they will do it again one day.
Whilst September 11th is a tragic occurence, I am staggered that you think you are alone on these forums as being the only person affected by violence/war/terrorism. This is a very multi-cultural site.

Ask anyone from Britain (myself included), chances are they will know someone who has been killed in Northern Ireland. Reliving one day? Try living twenty years like that..... and what did your government do to the US voters/tax payers who funded those terrorists so that they could blow up innocent school children? ... nada, nothing, zip. So much for the war on terror. The only good thing about 9/11 is that suddenly it wasn't "cool" to be seen to be supporting terrorists and the Noraid funds dried up... and at last peace had it's chance.

Like I say, I'm very very sorry for your loss, but be under no illusions that you are somehow unique in this. Many people around the world are subject to massive pain and suffering, and alas it is a sorry fact that the US (citizens and/or government) have inflicted a lot of that pain and suffering......

[Mark Gambo]

First of all the I was asked and I quote "What's with you and 9/11?". I informed the poster of why I think so strongly of this event. Now where did I ever say and I quote:

. . . you think you are alone on these forums as being the only person affected by violence/war/terrorism . . .

because I believe I stated:

. . . 9/11 to people who weren't there and/or effected, is just a tragic day to people like you. . .

I don't know how you could twist what I posted into me thinking that I was the only person effected on this forum by terrorism.

The only good thing about 9/11 is that suddenly it wasn't "cool" to be seen to be supporting terrorists and the Noraid funds dried up... and at last peace had it's chance.

When was it ever "cool" to support Terrorists?

. . . alas it is a sorry fact that the US (citizens and/or government) have inflicted a lot of that pain and suffering......

I guess you mean by crashing planes into the World Trade Center or blowing them up with explosives, right?

. . . Like I say, I'm very very sorry for your loss. . .

Thank you and I am sorry for any losses you may have experenced

[SurfDemon]

When was it ever "cool" to support Terrorists?
Apparently in Boston it was. Lots of money for "the cause" being donated. "Every dollar donated goes towards killing a British Soldier." as they used to brag. :(

Originally Posted by SurfDemon
. . . alas it is a sorry fact that the US (citizens and/or government) have inflicted a lot of that pain and suffering......
-------------------------------------------
I guess you mean by crashing planes into the World Trade Center or blowing them up with explosives, right?

No, Actually, I was going for overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with dictatorships... every been to Brazil lately, they're not very big fans of the US ... probably because the US aided the military junta in overthrowing the democratically elected government... around 500 people "dissapeared" and a systematic regime of rape and torture that was to last for 20 years????

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB118/index.htm

And then there's US support of Pinochet's coup in chile .... 3,000 people "disappeared" in that one...

And then theres Argentina.... a familiar tale of the US backing a military coup .... and another 20,000 people "disappear" (although in fairness the previous regimes seem to have been doing the same).

It goes on and on, if you take a look at how many oppressive regimes the US has helped install over the years it would/should bring you to tears.... I haven't even touched upon the middle-east, which is really where most of this is being stirred up.

Many would see it as your chickens coming back to roost.

[crptcblade]

No, Actually, I was going for overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with dictatorships... every been to Brazil lately, they're not very big fans of the US ... probably because the US aided the military junta in overthrowing the democratically elected government... around 500 people "dissapeared" and a systematic regime of rape and torture that was to last for 20 years????

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB118/index.htm

And then there's US support of Pinochet's coup in chile .... 3,000 people "disappeared" in that one...

And then theres Argentina.... a familiar tale of the US backing a military coup .... and another 20,000 people "disappear" (although in fairness the previous regimes seem to have been doing the same).

It goes on and on, if you take a look at how many oppressive regimes the US has helped install over the years it would/should bring you to tears.... I haven't even touched upon the middle-east, which is really where most of this is being stirred up.

Many would see it as your chickens coming back to roost.

Sure, when you put it like that we look like real douches. But c'mon, nobody's perfect.

[FunkyDexter]

You feeling ok today?:) Be fair. I really don't think I've posted anything anti-american in this thread (I have occasionally posted anti-Americanisms in this forum but always with my tongue in my cheek). If you look back to my original post you'll see that I was quite clear that the reasons the US is hated is down to the way you are perceived rather than the way you actually are. I think you guys are probably the second greatest nation on earth :p.

What I am anti is belicose rhetoric in place of acurate argument and that's what I took issue with your use of the word sovereignty over. I'm really funny about that sort of thing, maybe I'm a pedant, I don't know. I suspect it's rooted in my constant disillusionment with politicians who say one thing and do another. At the risk of further derailing the thread, Iraq provides a fantastic example of this. At one point my government told me that Saddam could hit the UK with a chemical attack at 20 minutes notice - it turned out his chemical weapons ability amounted to about the equivalent a post-curry case of gutrot.

Well, lets see, hmm, my cousin... I'm sorry for your loss. I really mean that. But I think you're the one who'se living in a small world. You've allowed the events of 9/11 to overcome your objectivity and that's a great shame. Statistically, you were astonishingly unlikely to have been affected by the results of that day. The problem with statistics of this nature is that some people are the statistics and, in this case, you were one of those people. It's really not surprising that you take it as personally as you do. But looking forward, the same astonishing unlikelyhood applies to you being affected by such an event in the future. If you allow the fear and hatred generated by you're closeness to the events of 9/11 to cloud your judgement and start you thinking that the world hates you because you're an American then the Bin-Laden's of this world have scored a victory that far outstrips the events of a single day.

I will fight with every ounce of strength in my body on this issue.And I admire you for it. But make the fight an intelligent and objective one. More innocent Iraqi's and Afghanis have died in the last 7 years than died on 9/11 by far - I'd love to quote you a magnitude but can't because nobody's kept accurate figures on how many have died, let alone which were innocent. Neither do I have a comparison of American army casulaties in these 2 conflicts to the casualties in 9/11 but I'm willing to bet they've long since exceeded them (if anyone has these figures, please post them, I'd love to get a clearer picture on this). I think most people would agree that those two conflicts wouldn't have happened without 9/11. There have been no terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 (I'm deliberately disregarding the Madrid and London bombings) but that's not because American lives are any less at risk, it's because the terrorist don't have to come to you now, you've gone to them. Sooner or later you've got to ask yourself the question, "have more lives have been lost because we took military action than would have been lost had we spent our resources on engagement, internal policing and intelligence (and how many of those lives have been American)"? If the answer to that question is yes then, objectively, we've made the wrong decision. Sure, that means losing a moral argument, but it's an argument you're winning at the expense of real peoples lives. I've allowed myself to derail the thread but I do it to make a point. If you allow a thirst for revenge to overcome your objectivity, the price you pay is almost always a higher one.

BTW, my name's Declan. Any Brits on this forum will know just how republican Irish that name is. My Grandad (who was a staunch republican) fled Limerick (which is about as republican as it gets) and came to England (which he'd previously regarded as the enemy) because his Daughter (my Mum) fell in love with an Englishman (my Dad). Even in the depths of Kilburn he lived in serious fear of reprisals which would have included broken knee caps and possible death had some of the people who'd previously called him friend ever managed to catch up with my family. He was estranged from his familiy for over 20 years (Thankfully they reconciled before he died). I say this not to evince sympathy or add weight to my argument but, once again, to make a point. If you carry that hate and fear with you it will continue to hurt you, your family and your freinds and it won't stop hurting you until you let it go.



Now, I would like you to take some time and give a serious look at this movie.Sorry B but I'm with Mark on this one. I may not agree with republican foreign policy but the only conspiracies that went into 9/11 were made between between members of Al-Quaida.

[Mark Gambo]

Apparently in Boston it was. Lots of money for "the cause" being donated. "Every dollar donated goes towards killing a British Soldier." as they used to brag. :( . . .

Hmm, I wonder which politician was doing the most talking? Teddy the swimmer. It was reprehensible act perpetrated by my favorite democrat.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Replies to various posts too numerous to bother quoting (sort yourselves out):

Wasn't a politician, it was fund raising groups, and it shouldn't be a surprise to you. I've been hearing about that pretty much all of my life, and you should have also. Boston was a well known fund raising area for the IRA and other groups. That's when it was "cool" to be supporting terrorists, and that's where, as well.

US troop losses in Iraq are approaching 4,000, not all combat deaths. This doesn't include contractor losses, which are not recorded, but have been estimated to be considerably higher. Thus losses in a war that was allowed because of 9/11, but not otherwise related to 9/11 are now higher than 9/11 casualty figures.

As for losses. Loved ones die before you, or you die before them. The latter is selfish, the former is hard. People turn to all kinds of places looking for answers as to why. If they were murdered, you can submerge the questions in a relentless anger against the murderer. Loss is loss. It's never easy, and it's never fun. You get to find some way to cope with it. Perhaps fury is a viable way, but it won't make good your losses. Only make sure that your anger doesn't drown your humanity.

[SurfDemon]

Hmm, I wonder which politician was doing the most talking? Teddy the swimmer. It was reprehensible act perpetrated by my favorite democrat.
Don't you dare trivialise this by turning it into another anti-democrat rant. Simple fact, citizens of the US, regrardless of who they where, actively funded terrorism that killed little children. Hunt those bastards down and bring them to justice or your "war on terror" is simply a sham to cover aggressive foreign policy.

[visualAd]

Well, lets see, hmm, my cousin, who I grew up with, was on the 101 Floor in Tower 2, my best friend was on the 89 Floor also in Tower 2, and a life long friend who just happened to be a NYC Police Officer made it to the 55 Floor on September 11, 201. Sadly, they all died that day. There remains have never been recovered, thier families will not have any peace until they "come Home". 9/11 to people who weren't there and/or effected, is just a tragic day to people like you. Try explaining to your children why they can't see the two most recognizable building in NYC from their bedroom window any more. Try explaining why cousin Tommy will not be coming over to play with them anymore. People like you live in a small world and things that don't effect you don't matter to you. I normally would respond to an asinine statement for the likes of you but I will make an exception for you. As for the rest of your post I really don't care about your conspiracy theories, I know what happened that day, I was there. I saw two planes hit the World Trade Center Towers.



To put it succinctly:

You sir are mis-informed!
I understand your personal passion and possible hatred given that you have lost some of those close to you. Like it has already been said; if you allow the personal side of it to get to you then you will not have an objective opinion, you will have a biased opinion. It doesn't matter how much you argue to the contrary, you do have a biased opinion and it shows. Thankfully I have never been unfortunate enough to loose someone close at the hands (directly or indirectly) of another so I cannot really comment on how you should feel.

But there is a comparison here. There are countries where car bombings are a daily occurrence as are the bombing of buildings. That was the case in London during the 80's and early 90's, it is the case in Iraq now. The likelihood of another attack on America is quite low and I think that if there were going to be another, it would have happened. Like they say "where there is a will there is a way".

I have said before terrorists have been around for as long as human society and they always will. If you look back to the recent past; those people /groups who were considered terrorists usually form an agreement with government or leaders and move back into mainstream society. I by no means condone the use of fear and killing to make a point but it is most certainly a fruitful approach. 9/11 bought the subject of terrorism into the mainstream on both sides (for those who want to eradicate it and those who want to promote their cause).

I don't feel that as a nation the US has moved on from 9/11. It is still very much as sore subject and one that probably affected every US citizen if they were around that day. In the UK, we have had trouble moving on from the death of princess Diana. The bombings in 2004 a pretty much a thing of the past through :ehh:. Until nations like the US and UK take a more objective view on the problem of modern terrorism and throw aside their personal opinions the problem will get worse.

[Xanith]

Don't you dare trivialise this by turning it into another anti-democrat rant. Simple fact, citizens of the US, regrardless of who they where, actively funded terrorism that killed little children. Hunt those bastards down and bring them to justice or your "war on terror" is simply a sham to cover aggressive foreign policy.

Remember that there were and are active "charities" in the US collecting funds for all manners of terrorist organizations (not just for the IRA). The US even trained the guys who flew the planes into the towers and the Pentagon. Such is the price for living in a free and open society; bad people can take advantage of a lot of the freedoms and use them for evil purposes.

Money has been raised in the US to kill Americans; they are still catching people today. A lot more scrutiny has been placed on a lot of these so called "charities". The IRA is still labeled as a terrorist organization by the US, any fundraising for any terrorist organization is stopped when it is discovered. I am sure there was such fundraising in the UK for the IRA as well, again in a free society such things happen.

X

[SurfDemon]

Remember that there were and are active "charities" in the US collecting funds for all manners of terrorist organizations (not just for the IRA). The US even trained the guys who flew the planes into the towers and the Pentagon. Such is the price for living in a free and open society; bad people can take advantage of a lot of the freedoms and use them for evil purposes.

Money has been raised in the US to kill Americans; they are still catching people today. A lot more scrutiny has been placed on a lot of these so called "charities". The IRA is still labeled as a terrorist organization by the US, any fundraising for any terrorist organization is stopped when it is discovered. I am sure there was such fundraising in the UK for the IRA as well, again in a free society such things happen.

X

Very true. However, I have never seen it so blatant as in Boston. Every so called Irish bar had someone going around with a hat. (I almost managed to put a beating into one of them - he did a runner after he got out of my grip).

I get the impression that nothing has been done to bring these people to justice. If I am wrong, then you would cheer me up immensly if you could show me some stories of these terrorism sponsors being brought to justice.

[Shaggy Hiker]

They were more celebrated than despised (though primarily they were ignored outside of the areas where they were active). I don't believe there has ever been a case even attempted against any of them.

[Xanith]

Very true. However, I have never seen it so blatant as in Boston. Every so called Irish bar had someone going around with a hat. (I almost managed to put a beating into one of them - he did a runner after he got out of my grip).

I get the impression that nothing has been done to bring these people to justice. If I am wrong, then you would cheer me up immensly if you could show me some stories of these terrorism sponsors being brought to justice.
I can't remember where I read those stories, I would have to search for them, but I do know that they are seriously clamping down on so called "charities" that raise money for terrorist organizations.

I do have one question for you however. You state that 9/11 was America's chickens coming home to roost, wouldnt IRA terrorism be simply English chickens coming home to roost after years of English Imperialism and occupation? It seems to me you feel different about the IRA, I was wondering why?

X

[SurfDemon]

I do have one question for you however. You state that 9/11 was America's chickens coming home to roost, wouldnt IRA terrorism be simply English chickens coming home to roost after years of English Imperialism and occupation? It seems to me you feel different about the IRA, I was wondering why?
Sorry, I actually said "that some people would say that it was America's Chickens coming home to roost.", personally I feel that all acts of terrorism are dispicable, and there can be no justification. However, I am a realist and in order to fight terrorism, you have to understand what causes it. The major problem is that the people who carry out these attacks, feel fully justified in their actions. Their justification is easily understandable given the violence inacted on their familes (though not excusable). If we were to work more at removing those justifications, we cripple Al-Quidea etc. far more than bombs and troops will.

As for IRA - English Imperialism, yes, you are quite right, it is the same thing, although for the sake of Historical accuracy it wasn't just the English, the Scots and indeed other Irishmen where just as guilty. Again, not justificable, but understandable.

Given the treatment metted out to the Irish 100 years ago, the original IRA where far more widely supported by the poplace of the time. In fact because of the visible injustices, the support for the original IRA was very comparable to some of the support for middle eastern terrorists today.

The modern IRA however, are a very different group of people, more interested in drug money and control through physical intimidation of the very people they were supposedly trying to "free". Most Irish people I know (and bear in mind that I lived there for a number of years and infact am actually married to an Irish lass), think of the modern IRA as dispicable criminals/thugs. So, because of the massive drop in injustices against the Irish people the popular support for the IRA has completely vanished.

So, yes, the Old IRA would be comparable to the modern Muslim Terrorists because they have very visible injustices against them that can easily be leveraged by terrorist recruiters.

The modern IRA is a completely different kettle of fish and more comparible to the Mafia than to Muslim Terrorists.

Unfortunately the US view appears to be slightly more romantic (what was the movie where Richard Gere was a "good" Ira bomber :ehh: [googled - The Jackal], or what was the other one with Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford (again with an IRA terrorist with a heart of gold... [googled] -"Devils Own"]).

Now I realise that Hollywood is a very skewed way of looking at a countries feelings, however the fact that two IRA characters where cast in such a sympathetic light does concern me.

[Mark Gambo]

Don't you dare trivialise this by turning it into another anti-democrat rant. Simple fact, citizens of the US, regrardless of who they where, actively funded terrorism that killed little children. Hunt those bastards down and bring them to justice or your "war on terror" is simply a sham to cover aggressive foreign policy.

All I know is that no member of my family or any of my friends donated any money or support to the IRA. Teddy Kennedy and his ilk were the ones who have supported these Terrorists. Support for the IRA unfortunately had a lot of support in Boston. I in way shape or form was Trivializing the Deaths (read Murders) caused by the IRA.

[Mark Gambo]

. . .The US even trained the guys who flew the planes into the towers and the Pentagon. . .

I think you meant to say they were trained IN the US not BY the US, right.

[MaximilianMayrhofer]

Either that or they were trained by the US :)

[CodedFire]

I have to say im sick to the teeth of this arguement. Mark, wether you like it or not your a product of your own dysfuctional nation. I do not hate americans or america for that matter. I dont even hate bush. I disagree with some policies yes but thats it. You have no right to push americana down anyones neck.

I am more qualified than anyone to talk about this. My country was invaded and ruled by the UK for hundreds of years, in fact they still possess the northern part of the country, its even got to the stage up there that NI will have to become a country in its own right to survive long term because of the diffrence in opinion between its internal populus.

I dont go around screaming about how great my country is and hating the UK (i love you guys) although my country is a hell of alot better. for at least these reasons:

Most millionares per captia
Second largest export of technology per captia
Unarmed police force which manages to keep the peace just fine
Up to 5 goverment parties which share power meaning everyone gets a say

There is also alot wrong with my country that i will happly admit too. The fact of the matter is just because your nation is the biggest and richest does not mean we hate it. But i would rather live here than in your country as i have a hell of alot more freedoms here.

I would like to just point out im merely debating the point i have no grudge against you mark and enjoy reading the majority of your posts, i just feel that this was a subject you should have left alone!

[SurfDemon]

I dont go around screaming about how great my country is and hating the UK (i love you guys) although my country is a hell of alot better. for at least these reasons:
......

You missed Vitamin G., the greatest invention in the history of the human race (IMHO) :thumb:

[CodedFire]

Riboflavin did an irishman discover that? I dont think so?

[SurfDemon]

Riboflavin did an irishman discover that? I dont think so?
Yip, otherwise known as King Arthur..... Vitamin G = Guinness, everything the body needs for a healthy life.... well, a happy one anyway :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Guinness

[System_Error]

I don't hate the United States by any means, but I do hate the fact that we try to fix other countries instead of fixing the problems we have on our own turf. Is that my selfish American attitude showing or do I feel the same as others around the world?

[penagate]

I think there are lot of people in other countries who wish the U.S. government agreed with you...

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't hate the United States by any means, but I do hate the fact that we try to fix other countries instead of fixing the problems we have on our own turf. Is that my selfish American attitude showing or do I feel the same as others around the world?

Just looking at your avatar is sufficient proof for anybody to dismiss you as insane, possibly criminally so.

Though actually, there could be MUCH worse. For instance, you could be a Flyers fan.

[CodedFire]

@ SurfDemon: Damn, that joke was right there, in my face, and what do i do? Go look up who discovered riboflaven!?

[crptcblade]

For instance, you could be a Flyers fan.
You just made the list buddy. :afrog:

[CodedFire]

Dammit you said i could be on the list too!

[crptcblade]

If you want to be on my list, you must have severe mental or emotional problems. We should hang out. :afrog:

[Xanith]

I think you meant to say they were trained IN the US not BY the US, right.
Of course, but I thought that was pretty self-evident. But for those who need further explanation, yes that is what I meant.

X