What's my market value?

[timeshifter]

From what I've seen in my little bit of searching, I've determined that I'm not making nearly what I'm worth, but I'm not sure exactly what my skills make me worth. A quick Google search didn't give me anything that looked useful in calculating what that value is, so I turn to you, my friends (including you, kregg) for advice on where I should be looking.

What I have to offer:
~4 years of VB experience, from VB6 to VB2005
>6 months professional web development with ASP.NET 2.0
Several physics simulation applications out of boredom
An eager willingness to push my limits
Management of multi-million dollar websites, including one company with international sales, and another that does national firearms wholesale

What would you guys say, and can you provide links to back it up?

[System_Error]

Market value as in salary per year?

[timeshifter]

Yes.

[techgnome]

It depends on the market.... obviously in some place like NYC, Chicago, or LA, you're going to get more than in some place like Omaha, Tampa, or St. Louis. This is one of the reasons I hate things like the annual surveys. For the region where I'm at, I don't make the avg... but that's because my region includes Chicago and Denver.... where the cost of living is higher (and subsequently so are salaries).

-tg

[timeshifter]

Internet took a dive for a minute... and I forgot i didn't have my location posted..

about 45 minutes outside of Boston, MA.

[sevenhalo]

If memory serves me, you've only been at your job <1 year (if more, only slightly). Give yourself time. Even moving to a new position elsewhere is going to be entry level.

[RobDog888]

But still entry level has a base pay / market rate more then what I think you are making. The problem is that, IMO, in our line of work employeers are in a position to ask for a laundry list of skills for little pay. Years ago a list would have brought in six figures. Today the market is flooded with programmers.

Remember a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[System_Error]

I worked with some VB programmers back in high school and they were making 50-55K/year with a 4 year degree, but had absolutely no benefits (these guys were 30+ years old). 55K is the national average for Computer Science students right out of a 4 year institution and around this area (depending on the company) it wouldn't be hard to get more than that. If your entry level, then don't worry about it. Get the experience and then think about elsewhere.

[timeshifter]

I'm making $28k a year right now with no degree, just a few programs showing what I was capable of. VB6 though it may have been, it was some cool stuff.

Anyway, the biggest reason I ask is that I'm pretty sure I want to get out of web dev. This company is small and growing quickly, but what are the chances of that being reflected in my salary? Plus, I find the work increasingly frustrating. Not that it's hard, not that I don't like the work environment, but the work itself just gets on my nerves. I'm constantly wanting to jump back to whatever I'm working at home, which is usually some crazy physics simulator.

Not to mention, I'm barely making it on this salary.. and by barely, I mean I'm juggling bills because I can't level them all. I know the possibility is out there for me to make a good deal more than I make now, but I want some numbers and some references so I can make a better decision.

[bgmacaw]

Indeed.com has some good salary reporting tools. I used them in this article: The VB.NET Salary Gap (http://vbnotebookfor.net/2007/09/17/the-vbnet-salary-gap/)

[System_Error]

It will be tough to move ahead right now without a degree. It's definately possible, but tough. Now, I've heard some of the best programmers didn't go to college, but I don't know enough about them to tell you how they made it.

You make close to what my brother makes as a police officer. From his experience I know it's just barely enough to get by and not a comfortable salary to live with.

Honestly, I would recommend going back to school. A 4 year degree can be a $20+K difference maker even for the worst programmers. If that's not one of your options, then look around for a part time job that will give you experience in other areas besides VB. The more experience you have, the better.

[timeshifter]

Everything is too tight right now for me to make any other commitments. If I were to go back to school, I'd have to take night classes, which would drive me crazy very quickly, or I'd be dropping this job and picking up something part-time, which is guaranteed to NOT pay the bills I already have. I can't make many moves without ending up completely out of money. If I'm going to make a change, it's going to be a relatively big one, just because nothing else will support me.

[Hack]

What about the Sunday Globe? I'm sure they have ads for programmers in their classifeds. What kind of salaries, commencerate with your experience, is being offered?

[techgnome]

It will be tough to move ahead right now without a degree. It's definately possible, but tough. Now, I've heard some of the best programmers didn't go to college, but I don't know enough about them to tell you how they made it.
I got lucky. Took advantage of situations as the presented themselves. And in a couple of cases, made the opportunities happen. Bottom line, I didn't sit back and wait for things to happen.

@TS - yeah, $28k in the Boston area.... not good.... (and don't take this the wrong way) even my mom makes more as a teacher.

check out justvbjobs.com careerbuilder.com monster.com, all the usual places... even if it says requires degree, if you think you can do the job, apply. Sell yourself. Often HRs put that in there to prevent every Tom, Rick, and Harry from applying.

An alternative would be to see if the company you are working for would put your through something like ITT Tech where you can get something in programming so that you can show you've had some kind of formal training. Even if it means you have to suck it up for a while. Just a thought.

-tg

[timeshifter]

My first reaction is that debt collection agencies don't take well to me "sucking it up"... and I know $28k sucks. I can't take that statement the wrong way because the teachers back in IOWA of all places made $42k. I know my skill set puts me far beyond what I'm making, but my age and lack of a degree make it hard to get my foot in any doors.

[timeshifter]

OK, here's another thought. Is there a time trend as to when programmers are normally in highest demand? A friend of mine has a personal contact in a decent sized consulting firm, and this friend claims I could get a job offer through the firm making at least $50k a year very quickly, given what I've done. Is there a general time frame when this would be most likely to happen?

[System_Error]

Is there a general time frame when this would be most likely to happen?

I can't quote any such time frame, but if you think you got the opportunity then go for it now. Don't waste anymore time thinking about when you should go.

[timeshifter]

My other thought then becomes, what would a new company think about vacation time so early on the job? I'd like to take a week off in December around Christmas and go back out to Iowa, but how many companies would let me do that with less than two months on the job? The company I'm in now, I've been with for more than six months already. It won't be a big deal to them.

My thoughts are I should give this job a solid year, just to be able to put that on a resume, then poke around for better opportunities. If this job can crank up the pay to a livable salary, then I might be more inclined to stay, but that probably won't happen until that one-year mark.

I'm very confused right now about what I should do... so many strong points for AND against staying here. HEEELP!!!!!

[szlamany]

Find a Robert Half head hunter in your area - I know they are in NY and CT - guessing they are in MA also.

Find out what they can farm you out at - Boston is a big $$ region - you might be surprised at what the numbers are.

It costs you nothing to try this.

[sevenhalo]

Don't use RHI (Robert Half), I had a brush with them in the past. Because you don't have a degree, they will just place you willy nilly in some corner and only expose you to the options everyone else turned down.

[GaryMazzone]

I haven't had any success with RHI. I just have a AS degree and just keep getting nothing from them.

[szlamany]

I don't particularly like RHI - but they have gotten me work in the past. And I have no degree.

It still doesn't hurt to look into this. Costs nothing.

[techgnome]

They didn't do much for me either - Assoc Applied Sci - Comp Sci.....Try seeing if there's a headhunter in the area... that was how I got this job years ago... for the candidate they are free (they get paid by the company doing the hiring.) Because most of them (the good ones) only get paid AFTER a candidate is hired, they do a good job looking for fits.

-tg

[RobDog888]

Since you are in the USA you can use http://dice.com as they have a good salary range report. Also, many good job listings all technical/programming in the IT industry. Plus its a advertisor of JM. :D

I have used them and still watch the job market with emails on related vb programming listings.

[zaza]

If you're prepared to think in the longer term, perhaps look at joining one of the banks on desktop. You don't need to have a degree to get on that. Sure it means spending some time doing rubbish things like doing PC swapouts and fixing keyboards or drive mappings, but give it a year and make some contacts then you might be able to get something more interesting, where your experience will actually be of use. Desktop salary in a major bank is going to be about $60k to start, going up to about $90k. Get into application development and you'd expect to be on over $100k.

[RobDog888]

I think there is something else going on too.

You really dont want to work as $ is not the real issue? You'd rather be at home working on your own game programs. Now there is the option of going into game programming as a career but everyone knows that so difficult to get into. You would at least need a degree from a game programming school, yes they do exist and are packed.

[timeshifter]

Money is certainly a driving factor in my decision, and as much as I'd love to program games, I realize I don't have what I need for that right now. I love working with hardware, but I love programming just as much... but not web dev. I love app dev. I'm actually thinking about writing some apps to integrate with Office 2007 to make my life easier. I just don't know where to start.

But yes, a better salary is a must. What I'm making here is sad... :cry:

[RobDog888]

Remember you are not going to be there forever but usually you find an area of programming and run with it for a long time. Yu dont want to go from one type of programming to another just for money either. It will weaken your experience on paper.

1 year is at a minimum of what you should put in at one location before moving on.

[timeshifter]

That was my thought as well... oh well. Another five months and some change before I start looking again... I wonder what I can write in that time...

[RobDog888]

I am going to need some assistance with a medium asp.net site soon :D

[KALEY678]

There's a solution for everything, you just have to make a little effort. You should find out for sure what the market value for your position is and what the company offers. If they don't match, enter a salary negotiation (http://www.cvtips.com/job_offer_salary_negotiation.html) and ask for how much you want (in decent ranges, of course).

[RobDog888]

Those are some good tips but mostly for when you are interviewing for a position, not when you are looking for a raise at a current position. :)

[agmorgan]

I'd give you £30k if you are willing to move to London :)

[timeshifter]

Yeah... something tells me that won't be happening soon.. sorry...

[GaryMazzone]

I just found a new position in NH. Just keep looking.

[timeshifter]

I can't afford to change right now, but once April rolls around, I can start poking around. It really depends on how things go.

[wossname]

An eager willingness to push my limits

Translation: "I nag wossy until he recodes all my stuff for me"

[timeshifter]

I haven't asked you to "recode" anything. I've asked for samples that I can pick apart, figure out, and apply to my own programs. Which I have done with much success thus far. Thanks, by the way :wave:

[Shaggy Hiker]

I should have mentioned this earlier, but if you are looking for a new job, you definitely don't want to talk about a vacation to Iowa. That's kind of like saying that your toaster is talking to you, it just makes you look crazy.

[timeshifter]

I haven't brought up the new job idea within the company... My logic is, that's a BAD plan. I've already decided I can't seriously start looking yet because of that vacation, so early next year is when I'll be poking around.

[GaryMazzone]

I'd start now looking now. It took me about 2 1/2 months for land a new job. I'll say that part of that was my wifes fault. First job offer she saud she would move to the location once I got the offer she changed her mind.

[timeshifter]

There is one possibility I'm bouncing back and forth with right now. I was hoping to hit a full year before switching, as "One Year" looks more impressive than anything less...