Technical test on "VB Controls" and "VB6 Applications" ?

[AdamBrunt]

Hi all,

Got the above coming up shortly as part of an interview for a job.

What sort of questions are likely to come up do people think ?

I have done a "Workbench" test in the past which asked questions about syntax for various controls in such as a way of implying you should know all VB6 off by heart, which I didn't do too well on as you had no help and couldn't go off and look it up. I have always adopted the philosophy of "a good programmer doesn't remember every bit of syntax, they just know where to look it up"

The test has a pass rate of 75% but also has sections on "Maths / Algorithms" and "SQL" which should bump my score up.

Anyone got any thoughts on what sort questions will be involved in the Controls and Applications part ?

Regards,

Adam

[Hack]

Moved To General Developer

[bgmacaw]

The old "DMV Test" interview method.

I'd say just review the basics on MSDN help and you should be OK.

[AdamBrunt]

Well the test is done ..... and there was nothing much about "maths & algorithms" particularly.

The test was done on a PC with Visual Studio, a basic Oracle PL/SQL front end and notepad.

Qn 1) Given the principle behind "the rule of 78" / Sum Of Digits [ a finance method to determine monthly interest payments ] write a VB app to store, in an array, and then display the payments for each month when £100 is spread over 12 months.

Qn 2) Using just 1 text box and 1 command button (at design time), create a fully functional calculator (including Memory Store and Memory recall). The calculator should be able to hand complex calculations eg 10 * 4 - 15 / 5 as well as simple 4 * 2.

Qn 3) Four/five SELECT questions getting no more difficult than a multiple join.

Qn 4) Write 2 Oracle SPs to (i) check whether a passed string is a palindrome and (ii) replicate what you did in VB in (1) above.

(1) was a breeze, (2) was OK once I had used VB Help to work out how to build a control array at runtime. However, the tester didn't like my approach of building the calculation up as a string and then trying to evaluate the string [ which I was sure VB could do ], (3) was a doddle but (4) could be the killer. I only effectively had notepad to write the PL/SQL and I kept using VB/Java code rather than PL/SQL This confused the tester, obviously, but we discussed it and talked about how I (and they) use a RAD tool to do PL/SQL which is much easier, etc, etc. Once I had sorted out the syntax numpties - the logic was actually correct so hopefully that helped.

Pass mark was 75% and I will find out later today apparently. Just think that Qn 4 is going to be the decider.

[techgnome]

dang.... glad I didn't have to take that.... I'd flunk...
1) RIiiiight. because that's something everyone knows.
2) It's a reinvention of the wheel and a cr@p question. Everyone does one of these in class. All it proves is that you showed up that day.
3) Maybe, just maybe I would have passed this question. But just ton confuse them, I'd have used Access method for joining.
4) That's business logic, doesn't belong in the database.

So given that, I would have failed three out of four questions. I don't see how it can be scored on a percentage basis. The questions are subjective, they need to be objective, and the answer clear cut and dry. Everyone has their own way of doing things, that may or may not sit well with the test giver (even if it does work).... and that will ultimately count against you.

-tg

[AdamBrunt]

dang.... glad I didn't have to take that.... I'd flunk...
1) RIiiiight. because that's something everyone knows.

You were given the formula in the question - so it was just testing you could code it properly.

2) It's a reinvention of the wheel and a cr@p question. Everyone does one of these in class. All it proves is that you showed up that day.

I think the main part of the test, again, was to check code logic in being able to make a 4 x 5 grid of controls as neatly as possible.

4) That's business logic, doesn't belong in the database.

I was thinking that as I wrote it - and it did make me think what else they did database side. Certainly all I do usually is SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE and DELETE statements in my stored procedures. The middle-ware does the business logic.

[penagate]

The way I see it, if you fail a job interview test it doesn't necessarily reflect upon your skills, but rather how well you would fit in with the practices used in the shop. In this case, TG and the company in question would obviously be a poor fit.

[AdamBrunt]

Results are in .... agent claims I got 71% and the pass mark was 75%.

The company don't interview anyone with less than 75% Mind you, I'm not sure I am that bothered about not working for a company who clearly think an Oracle Stored Procedure is the best way to test if a string is a palindrome - as one of the questions asked.

[penagate]

Mind you, I'm not sure I am that bothered about not working for a company who clearly think an Oracle Stored Procedure is the best way to test if a string is a palindrome - as one of the questions asked.

Exactly. This is what the test/interview stages are for; if you'd gotten through then you probably wouldn't have been happy in the job anyway, and as a result your employer wouldn't have been happy with you. It's the same story if you find you have to put on an act to pass the interview: are you prepared to keep up that act as long as you have the job? In my opinion, stuff it and look for another one.

[bgmacaw]

They'll get the programmer they deserve.

If you're still in the job search process, I've been running several articles on interviews and interview questions on my blog recently that you might find helpful, particularly if you're looking for VB.NET work.

[Hack]

Exactly. This is what the test/interview stages are for; if you'd gotten through then you probably wouldn't have been happy in the job anyway, and as a result your employer wouldn't have been happy with you.

Amen and Amen

[techgnome]

1) You did better than I would have.

2) Penagate's right... I would not have been a good fit there. I realize that many companies have strict procedures (even our own source safe rules are pretty ... umm.... sadistic sometimes) and that they are there for a reason, but any company that can't listen to change will have me working there for about 8 hours.

3) I may have to add some variation of these questions to my master list. Just for the reaction.

4) Granted something is needed to test the candidate's skill set.... but how do you do that objectively? I'm not convinced it can be done. btw: if any one has suggestions on this, I'm open, we're looking for something.

-tg

[bgmacaw]

4) Granted something is needed to test the candidate's skill set.... but how do you do that objectively? I'm not convinced it can be done. btw: if any one has suggestions on this, I'm open, we're looking for something.

Voight-Kampff test - "Is this testing whether I'm a replicant or a programmer, Mr. Deckard?"

But seriously, I did just write an article on this topic: 7 Ways To Hire Smarter Programmers. This older article, How To Conduct a VB.NET Job Interview, might also be interesting to you.

[techgnome]

Sweet, thanks, I'll check them out later. It's just ocurred to me that the title of this threadis "Technical test on 'VB Control' and 'VB6 Application'" ... although the questions sounded more like "how well can you predict our processes and use them no matter what." *shudder*

-tg

[AdamBrunt]

Exactly. This is what the test/interview stages are for; if you'd gotten through then you probably wouldn't have been happy in the job anyway, and as a result your employer wouldn't have been happy with you. It's the same story if you find you have to put on an act to pass the interview: are you prepared to keep up that act as long as you have the job? In my opinion, stuff it and look for another one.

I was thinking more along the lines of ... sure it may well be valid test of whether I know PL/SQL (or whatever) but if you're asking those sorts of questions in the interview process how many candidates are you going to approve of ??

Maybe I (and my current employer) are alone here (and am to far embedded into OOP) but how many people these days use PL/SQL for anything other than storing and retrieving data ?

[AdamBrunt]

If you're still in the job search process, I've been running several articles on interviews and interview questions on my blog recently that you might find helpful, particularly if you're looking for VB.NET work.

My problem is that all my experience, to date, is VB6, VBScript, Classic ASP, etc - I have no commercial .Net experience at all.

It's proving to be a regular shortcoming when applying for jobs. IME employers want people who develop in .Net and know VB6 rather than the other way round.

[Hack]

What do you do for your current employer?

[techgnome]

My problem is that all my experience, to date, is VB6, VBScript, Classic ASP, etc - I have no commercial .Net experience at all.

It's proving to be a regular shortcoming when applying for jobs. IME employers want people who develop in .Net and know VB6 rather than the other way round.

So explain to them that's why you are looking for new employment. That you are unable to expand your technical skills in your current environment. Mention that you have been learning .NET in your off time (if that is the case) and that now you are looking for a new opportunity to build upon that foundation and grow as a developer.

It shows a willingness to learn, shows initiative, and it shows that you don't just go with the status quo.


As a side note, some of our interview questions are pretty unorthodox, but then we're pretty much an unorthodox sort of place. We look for a number of things

• personality - will they fit in here? We're a small group and we're like an extended family... our home lives are dysfunctional enough we try to prevent that at the office

• skills - oddly enough, while importaint, not as much so as personality. Skils can be taught, personality can't. If we find some one that fits, but lacks the skils but shows promise... we'll take on that person. It's paid off more than once.

• ability to learn - we've had both ends of the spectrum, people who soak it all up like a sponge and is able to use it, and those that no matter how many times you beat it into them, just don't get it.

• passion - this is a tough one... we take a lot of pride in our work and what we do here. We've had some people that were good at what they do... they just don't care....it's hard to deal with. They don't usually last long. There was one that just simply wanted to come in, do job, collect paycheck and "hide" essentiually. Works at a large shop.... not so much when the entire company numbers less than 30.

• lack of ambition - weird thing to look for, but it is. We're such a small org, there's not really room for advancement. So if you are looking to become a VP or go into management, this probably isn't the place. We've had a couple of people leave because they realized that there was no upwards movement. We've also had people turn us down because of that. There's ample opportunity to lead teams and such, but if one is looking for a "Manager" title... keep looking.

-tg

[AdamBrunt]

So explain to them that's why you are looking for new employment. That you are unable to expand your technical skills in your current environment. Mention that you have been learning .NET in your off time (if that is the case) and that now you are looking for a new opportunity to build upon that foundation and grow as a developer.

Oh I do. I am not saying the jobs aren't out there, cos they are, there just isn't a vast number of them.

[AdamBrunt]

What do you do for your current employer?

Web/systems development.

Typically create ASP pages that communicate with a db backend via a COM+ DLL written in VB6 - a classic 3-tier approach.

On top of this there is a fair bit of "normal" VB6 [ forms/windows/etc ] development.

Aside from the coding aspects I am also involved in the full product life cycle on all projects [ requirements gathering, design, testing, implementation, etc, etc ]

Current employer has decided to switch away from VB development to ... Java (rather than .Net) which went down well with the 50+ VB developers. Being a sort of MSoft 'fanboy' (or rather someone whose entire career has been working in MSorft technology) I am looking to move into .Net

[Hack]

I'm guessing VB.NET is not in the immediate future of your current company. Would that be accurate?

[AdamBrunt]

I'm guessing VB.NET is not in the immediate future of your current company. Would that be accurate?

It's not in the future at all.

As soon as Microsoft announced that support for VB was stopping, the company went into "we don't develop using unsupported software" mode and rather than xtrain everyone to .Net they chose Java.

The fact we have never asked MSoft for any support in terms in VB development in the past 3/4 years was irrelevant.

[Hack]

The only way I could get my people to give up VB6 and move to .NET was to tell them none of their VB6 apps would work under Vista.

Fortunately, they believed me.

I guess that wouldn't work for you though.

[AdamBrunt]

The only way I could get my people to give up VB6 and move to .NET was to tell them none of their VB6 apps would work under Vista.

Fortunately, they believed me.

I guess that wouldn't work for you though.

To be honest I don't need an excuse to switch to .Net

I am not 'naive' enough to think that there is going to be purely VB6 roles available in x years time. It's hard enough to find jobs where no .Net experience is required at the moment. I dread to think how hard it's going to be in x years time.

[techgnome]

Adam - what's your locale?

As for finding jobs where no .NET experience is needed, you're right, they are getting scarce, but not impossible. Look for a growing company that's converting from VB6 to .NET... that's where the jobs are at. Especially if they have a current client base that still needs the VB6 platform maintained. And don't be afraid to apply for something especially if they are looking for both .NET AND VB6...

-tg

[AdamBrunt]

Adam - what's your locale?

UK, about 30 miles south of London.

As for finding jobs where no .NET experience is needed, you're right, they are getting scarce, but not impossible. Look for a growing company that's converting from VB6 to .NET... that's where the jobs are at. Especially if they have a current client base that still needs the VB6 platform maintained. And don't be afraid to apply for something especially if they are looking for both .NET AND VB6...

Yep - been looking for those. However, most of the jobs I have gone for have been through agents who, I believe, tend to screen out those candidates who don't have .Net if the client has asked for it.

I have NO commercial experience of .Net (either VB or ASP) and very little "playing about at home" experience either - though I do have both the VB.Net and ASP.Net versions of Visual Studio on my home PC ... just a case of finding the time.

I have no doubt in my ability to be able to grasp VB.Net and ASP.Net if given the opportunity, and the cross-training to Java I have had with my current employer has helped to a degree in that included loads of OOP/UML training which is an added string to my bow.