How important VB is? [Archive]

Hack

Jul 19th, 2007, 08:53 AM

Moved To General Developer

I'm a commerical software developer. My company creates, markets and sells commerical software products to the insurance industry. We have clients all over the US, Canada and Mexico. All of our base products are written in VB6, and are still selling very well.

I believe that qualifies as high level.

Now, having said that, we also have .NET version of our products, and those sales are starting to pick up. We continue to make changes to our VB6 versions because clients still using those versions are requesting them, and paying for them.

If the basis of your question is whether or not to learn VB6, I would say No. If you are just getting started and are interested in VB, then go with the .NET version.

superbovine

Jul 19th, 2007, 09:13 AM

I read an article a few years ago on the topic. The facts of the article still probably stand true. VB has is the widest used programming language in the world, which makes to pretty darn important. The reason why is it support rapid dev and it is pretty easy to learn. There is also the fact that there is multi-lanuage facade in VB which adds a whole lot of value to learning curve of non-english speaking programmgers. It is a lot harder for a non-english speaker to learn programming if he does not know the meaning of For, if, then, while, etc. However, still most developers end up using english, put it is a good tool as a stepping stone to get developers started learning in a more comfortable enviroment. If you ever worked with code from non-english speaking developers you will understand.

Also, there are fortune 500 companies mission critical apps on vb, if that what you consider as important.

FunkyDexter

Jul 20th, 2007, 11:12 AM

I think I'd argue that VB is probably THE most important language around today, simply because it has such a huge market penatration. I learned both C++ and Java on my degree but ended up doing VB for a living because jobs in either of the aforementioned languages seem to be rarer than hen's teeth (and I really tried to get Java work because I absolutely loved programming in it)

I think the reasons it's achieved that dominance is probably 3 fold:-
1. It's easy to learn
2. It's the development lanuage for the office products which are in probably 90% of offices
3. Visual Studio is by far the best development enviroment to work in.

esposito

Jul 20th, 2007, 11:34 AM

Now, having said that, we also have .NET version of our products, and those sales are starting to pick up. We continue to make changes to our VB6 versions because clients still using those versions are requesting them, and paying for them.

Are you saying that your customers are aware of the programming language lying underneath a piece of software? Is there any particular reason why they asked you to re-write the software in .NET?

Hack

Jul 20th, 2007, 11:43 AM

Are you saying that your customers are aware of the programming language lying underneath a piece of software? Is there any particular reason why they asked you to re-write the software in .NET?Our sales and maketing people deal directly with the people that have the authority to sign the checks.

People like me deal with the IT people in the company that is looking at our products. Generally, the management folks will go with the recommendations of their internal IT folks and their internal IT folks are the ones asking for .NET

We still have both versions on the market.

RhinoBull

Jul 20th, 2007, 11:50 AM

Are you saying that your customers are aware of the programming language lying underneath a piece of software? Is there any particular reason why they asked you to re-write the software in .NET?
If you are selling the source as well then you know the rest I'm sure.
If you only sell the "finished product" then it's nobody's business what's lying underneath except perhaps for database engine that may or may not fit your already established environment (ie, Oracle vs MS SQL vs Sybase vs MySql vs etc...).

Hack

Jul 20th, 2007, 12:02 PM

We don't sell the source (at least as far as I know), however, their is great interest in the development language. There are a growing number of IT departments that I've dealt with that see a move to Vista in the future and they do not want to spend money on a product written in a language (VB6) that may, or may not, continue to work on the platform.

At least, thats what I'm getting from the IT guys.If you only sell the "finished product" then it's nobody's business what's lying underneathI would beg to differ with you. If you are paying what we are selling for, everything about the product is your business. :D

techgnome

Jul 20th, 2007, 12:53 PM

I'm with Hack on this one. Our development platform has actually been one of our selling points. Depending on the licensing agreement, for each release our clients get, it goes into a Source Code Escrow account.

We also publish to a certain extent the interfaces used by the app, so that if the client wants to add their own components, they can. We won't support it (and they know this).... but there's nothing to stop them from doing so.

-tg

RhinoBull

Jul 20th, 2007, 01:19 PM

...If you are paying what we are selling for, everything about the product is your business. :D
Not necessary - when you buy any software in the store do you contact vendor and ask what language did they use to build it? Common really.
I would expect you to give it a test drive and check all the functionalities and performance - that's all.
If you are happy we are done - if not I will try improve it to make you happy.
But the engine behind it... It's not of anybody's business.

My opinion anyway.

Hack

Jul 20th, 2007, 01:23 PM

You don't buy our software out of a store. You contract through our company and once all the paperwork and whatever is involved (I have no idea how that end works), we dispatch a team of installers to your site and perform the initial software and database installations, test everything to make sure it all works, and then hand you the "keys".

Besides, it is not relevant what we think is necessary. If you have money in your pocket and want to buy my product, EVERYTHING that you say IS necessary becomes necessary as far as I'm concerned. If that means you want to know what it is written in, then by all means we will tell you.

techgnome

Jul 20th, 2007, 01:53 PM

We're not shy about sharing what we used as our development platform... in fact we get asked about it all the time... they want to know if what we are using is scalable. We actually lost a sale because we were still using VB6, and hadn't progressed onto .NET (that's what finally kicked our VP in the ar$e and started pushing a little harder to .NET - caveat - he's no longer with us, and he never pushed hard enough.... but back to the point)... We deal with some really technical savy IT folks, and we have to be answerable to them, they are paying some big bucks for our software. They want reassurances that things are going to work.

-tg

RhinoBull

Jul 20th, 2007, 02:09 PM

@ Hack and techgnome:

your companies are willing to share and I am not - whould any approach change anything?
I don't think so - a package is a package and you either buy it because it does exactly (or at least close) what you're looking for or you don't.
You don't buy software only because it was written in some specific language (or suite of languages). And that's my point.

btw, buying soft in the store was just an example though...

GaryMazzone

Jul 20th, 2007, 02:14 PM

We do custom software here also and every one we sold to has asked the same questions What is the database backend? What is it written in?

techgnome

Jul 20th, 2007, 02:25 PM

I think that's where the key to this is.... Sure, most software I couldn't care less what language was used. If I were to start shelling out the kind of money our clients do, I might care. If I'm running an enterprise system, I'm going to care if it was written in .NET, Vb6 or Pascal. For mission critical applications, not to mention for Sarbanes-Oxley (*) reasons, I want assurances that the system is going to keep rolling along. And that's where our clients are coming from. It might be our market, it might be the industry we deal with (utilities - gas & electric), but it is something they care about.

I'm not saying that everyone does or should, but the fact of the matter is, some do. But to expect that it's nobody's business is wrong in some cases.

-tg

(*) Sarbanes-Oxley (I think I have that spelled right) US Legislation created in the wake of the Enron disaster that imposed stricter rules and regulations on systems that deal with a company's accounting. Because our system tracks Accounts Receivables, we are impacted by these restrictions, as much as we wish we didn't.

GaryMazzone

Jul 20th, 2007, 02:30 PM

tg I agree the stuff we do is aimed at nuclear power plants.

Shaggy Hiker

Jul 20th, 2007, 05:00 PM

This argument has gotten a bit silly, since you are all basically in agreement. TG and Hack are saying that people are making purchasing decisions based on the underlying language, and RB is saying that people will make decisions based on whether the software works for them. That's the same thing. If the customer really cares about the underlying language, then that IS what is important to them. They either get their answer and like it or they take their business elsewhere. Both positions are encompassed within this one statement. After all, if you tell a customer that they don't need to know, and they take their business elsewhere, then that should be fine with both of you.

Some people will care, some people won't. Those that do will base their decision on what they find out. Those that don't will ALSO base their decision on what they find out, it's just that they will find out different things.

esposito

Jul 20th, 2007, 05:33 PM

If I'm running an enterprise system, I'm going to care if it was written in .NET, Vb6 or Pascal. For mission critical applications, not to mention for Sarbanes-Oxley (*) reasons, I want assurances that the system is going to keep rolling along.

And does .NET guarantee that "the system is going to keep rolling along"? I honestly have my doubts about it. Just wait for MS to come up with a new brilliant idea and you will see how all .NET lovers will be left stranded (just think of what happened to VB6 users).

I for one believe that, today, a wise investment is represented by Delphi: perfect backwards compatibility, ability to produce both standalone executables and .NET applications, availability of free versions also for commercial purposes (Turbo editions), ability to develop software for Linux (through Lazarus).

I have started to produce my new commercial software in Delphi and the satisfaction I get when I sell a licence is addictive. It tells me I am not going to die after the demise of VB6. As far as .NET is concerned, only when the sun ceases to shine will I switch to byte code software.

techgnome

Jul 20th, 2007, 06:37 PM

And does .NET guarantee that "the system is going to keep rolling along"? I honestly have my doubts about it. Just wait for MS to come up with a new brilliant idea and you will see how all .NET lovers will be left stranded (just think of what happened to VB6 users).

you know what never mind.... I'm not going to take the bait.

-tg

unsubscrbe:this.thread(now)

Shaggy Hiker

Jul 21st, 2007, 12:44 PM

It seems to me I've heard this song before.

esposito

Jul 21st, 2007, 01:24 PM

It seems to me I've heard this song before.

The song I'm singing now is different: there's still hope for the future. That hope is called Delphi.

RhinoBull

Jul 21st, 2007, 04:19 PM

szlamany

Jul 21st, 2007, 08:02 PM

When you buy shrink-wrap software you don't give a hoot what it's written in.

When I dropped $500 on Sony Vegas video editing software I could care less what it was written in - it came in a box - shrink wrapped.

When someone buys our products - like TG and Hack's - they are investing in a future - with us support and enhancements and hopefully 20 years of ongoing income stream.

For that reason alone everyone cares about the underlying tools used.

When we demo - if it's end-users - they look at flash - the GUI.

Backend folks (IT and those "decision makers that think they know best") want to know what they are investing in. How many employees - what is it written in - better be MS if it's going to have legs.

At any rate - we've made a living off of BASIC since 1980 - mainframe and now VB6 since 2000. VB.Net is going to be our platform shortly...

And of course - only MS SQL server for a backend.

And - btw - Sony Vegas uses MS SQL MSDE (and maybe now MS SQL Express) for a backend DB - this made me happy ;)

And @ RB - your opinion is really important - but it's just that, an opinion. Flavored by your reality and the world you spend all your time in. I always appreciate your point of view - and have come to ignore the "arrow" it's delivered with :)

Shaggy Hiker

Jul 22nd, 2007, 12:59 PM

I don't believe that underlying technolgy and actual functionality are the same thing and argument isn't as you said silly. However, I am "unsubscribing" to this thread as well.

I may have mispoken by calling it silly. My point was that you were both arguing that the key point in sales is to "give the customer the information they want to make a purchasing decision." However, since you are both talking about different customers, they want different information so you give them different things. The underlying objective is the same though: Convince a customer that your software will meet all their needs, whatever they think or know those needs to be.