31 dead in virginia

[|2eM!x]

Did everyone hear this? A student killed 30 people in two hours, the time spread was 3 hours and no one was warned in classes.
http://www.volunteertv.com/news/headlines/7045577.html

[System_Error]

I go to school there. Luckily I wasn't on campus.

and no one was warned in classes.

People were warned.

[ProphetBeal]

The final death toll was 33 including the gunman . http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/..._tech_shooting

[|2eM!x]

I go to school there. Luckily I wasn't on campus.


People were warned.

****.

[System_Error]

I was on campus in august when the inmate escaped from prison and shot a couple of cops on the trail above us.... and I thought that was scary!

[FunkyDexter]

People were warned.

Really? The news is reporting that they weren't but I never entirely trust what I read.

One thing I'm not clear on, was this guy a student at the college or did he come in from outside?

[Atheist]

Clearly shows that guns shouldnt be allowed for any reason, anywhere.

[learning c]

hey the constitution gives us the right to defend ourselves.

[nemaroller]

Not at Virginia Tech it doesn't.

[Atheist]

hey the constitution gives us the right to defend ourselves.

Not to be disrespectful, but defend yourself against what? Another person with a gun? Thats just crazy, use guns to fight guns. Damn that crazy constitution, how many school massacres does it take to figure out something is wrong with it?

[timeshifter]

It's the FPS thing. It's causing depressed people to become desensitized to shooting people, so game or real life, they just don't feel anything from killing.

[ProphetBeal]

It's the FPS thing. It's causing depressed people to become desensitized to shooting people, so game or real life, they just don't feel anything from killing.

You can't blame games. If anything is a factor to the desensitizion of people, then it's movies that realistically depict people being killed and/or dismembered.

[timeshifter]

Well, that too. But the games don't help.

[System_Error]

Really? The news is reporting that they weren't but I never entirely trust what I read.

One thing I'm not clear on, was this guy a student at the college or did he come in from outside?

Well, I'm not sure about it now. I heard from someone that the classes were locked down until 1pm, but apparently it was only on that one side and the warning to everyone else came like 2 hours after the first shooting (I heard that was by email).

I was 3.5 hours away when it happened, so I am in the dark as everyone else except for a phone call or two. Maybe in a few days I can get more info.

[MasterBlaster]

Not to be disrespectful, but defend yourself against what? Another person with a gun? Thats just crazy, use guns to fight guns. Damn that crazy constitution, how many school massacres does it take to figure out something is wrong with it?

YES! Defend yourself against a gun. This guy was not a US citizen and was carrying an illegal weapon. If someone there was legally packin it would have been over in 10 seconds. If you don't want to carry a gun, don't, but don't take away my rights. How many school massacres does it take to show that taking away a parents right to punish their children by morons like you who live in fantasy land is the problem?

[FunkyDexter]

apparently it was only on that one side and the warning to everyone else came like 2 hours after the first shooting

If some were warned but not others then it really does sound like a monumental cock up (because it implies the college know that warning were needed but didn't fully act on it).

I hope nobody you know was hurt. It's got to be seriously scary to be that closely attached to such an event.


I don't think you can blame computer games (unless you're going to start blaming kids playing soldiers in playgrounds) and I also don't think you can blame relaxed gun laws (Canada's are MUCH tighter and their rate of gun crime per capita is comparable.) I don't consider myself anwhere near informed enough about American society to offer an opinion on what the root problems actually are but I suspect they're alot more complex that the single issue causes that will no doubt be touted in the coming weeks.

[MasterBlaster]

What the hell do gun laws have to do with anything? He shot them wit a 22 automatic and a 9mm glock. Both of them had the serial numbers filed off and he was not a citzen so he couldn't have a permit to carry. He was already in violation of every gun law In the US, do you think adding more laws that he wouldn't have followed in the first place would help? All you are doing is making it harder for law abiding citzens to defend themselvs against these arsehats.

[Atheist]

YES! Defend yourself against a gun. This guy was not a US citizen and was carrying an illegal weapon. If someone there was legally packin it would have been over in 10 seconds. If you don't want to carry a gun, don't, but don't take away my rights. How many school massacres does it take to show that taking away a parents right to punish their children by morons like you who live in fantasy land is the problem?

Are you calling me a moron? I was just trying to point out that it must be a thousand times easier to get hold of guns in the US than other countries. I have never even seen a real gun except on television in my entire life.
There has been plenty of school shootings in the US in the news the past couple of years, whilst Sweden (I take sweden as an example of course, since its the country I know best) has had 0, and armed robbery is rare.

I didnt really get the part about punishment though..

[timeshifter]

Getting ahold of a gun and legally getting ahold of a gun are two different things. Given the nature of American justice, a known crime lord could get ahold of anything he wanted, legally if he was smart. He would have been covering his tracks at every turn and made it impossible to trace anything back to him. It's been done before. So all that needs to happen is he decides he wants a bank robbed... legally, the gun dealers can't deny his request because as far as the law is concerned, he's clean... but all he has to do is hand off the gun and a bunch of ammo to some illegal immigrant who needs the money, and presto. You have yourself an illegal firearms holder, who had absolutely no difficulty getting ahold of what he needed.

[MasterBlaster]

Are you calling me a moron? I was just trying to point out that it must be a thousand times easier to get hold of guns in the US than other countries. I have never even seen a real gun except on television in my entire life.
There has been plenty of school shootings in the US in the news the past couple of years, whilst Sweden (I take sweden as an example of course, since its the country I know best) has had 0, and armed robbery is rare.

I didnt really get the part about punishment though..

Yes, you are commenting on a situation you know nothing about. That is being a moron. Don't get upset about, I'm a moron from time to time as well. It is easy to get a gun in the us if You have no criminal record, pass all of the background checks and can carry one for personal defense if you are approved to carry one by the local sherrif or the state police. It is even eaiser to get one if you are a criminal. Just head down to the local Crack head block, and flash some cash. Making guns illegal will make it impossible for the former only. There is no way you're going to stop illegal guns from coming into the US. Just like you're not going to stop, Cocaine, Heroin, Weed, Fastfood workers and lawn care professionals from getting here illegally. This is not Sweeden. We have a helluva lot bigger border and even more organized crime.

I bring up punishment to address the normal school shootings here. In my highschool, there was a few weeks of the year that damn near everyone had a rifel or shotgun with ammo in the trunk of their car. It was called deer season and no one ever shot anyone. It might have had something to do with the fact that our parents were allowed to put the fear of god and dismemberment into us.

[MasterBlaster]

Getting ahold of a gun and legally getting ahold of a gun are two different things. Given the nature of American justice, a known crime lord could get ahold of anything he wanted, legally if he was smart. He would have been covering his tracks at every turn and made it impossible to trace anything back to him. It's been done before. So all that needs to happen is he decides he wants a bank robbed... legally, the gun dealers can't deny his request because as far as the law is concerned, he's clean... but all he has to do is hand off the gun and a bunch of ammo to some illegal immigrant who needs the money, and presto. You have yourself an illegal firearms holder, who had absolutely no difficulty getting ahold of what he needed.

Dude you've been watching way too much TV.

[Atheist]

I cant belive what Im hearing, alright its your country Im gonna stay out of your business and this thread for that matter. Just remember when you walk around loving your "freedom to carry guns" that countless of innocent young lifes died because of this "fantastic freedom" (Yeah he had illegal guns, but the victims never felt the difference now did they?)
Dont bother replying to this post, as I wont look here again.

[timeshifter]

Dude you've been watching way too much TV.

I don't even watch TV anymore... but where do you think all of it comes from? There are places where someone with a brain can pull off just that. It's not just in the movies. It's out there. I'm not saying it's the reason this particular instance happened, it's likely not. But it is a probable reason for a lot of other crimes that people pass off as "random".

[MasterBlaster]

I cant belive what Im hearing, alright its your country Im gonna stay out of your business and this thread for that matter. Just remember when you walk around loving your "freedom to carry guns" that countless of innocent young lifes died because of this "fantastic freedom" (Yeah he had illegal guns, but the victims never felt the difference now did they?)
Dont bother replying to this post, as I wont look here again.

Whatever, cry like a little girl if you'd like. All I know is if that dipshet ever tried shooting me with an "Illegal" weapon, he will promply be choking on slugs from my "Fantastic Freedom".

[MasterBlaster]

I don't even watch TV anymore... but where do you think all of it comes from? There are places where someone with a brain can pull off just that. It's not just in the movies. It's out there. I'm not saying it's the reason this particular instance happened, it's likely not. But it is a probable reason for a lot of other crimes that people pass off as "random".

Good for ya. That stuff will rot your brain. The majority of these guns are coming from home robberies. I've posted here before that guns that are unattended should be required to be in a safe with a trigger and bolt lock attached when not under direct control of the owner. The problem with your scenario is that semi automatic and handguns need to be registered and if somoeone is purchasing enough guns to be profitable they will get redflagged. There's no money in it. Stolen weapons is where the cash is.

[capsulecorpjx]

I'm pretty sure the Middle Eastern foreign exchange students are relieved the shooter is a South Korean.

[rory]

gun laws dont generally stop gun violence .. it may make it harder for some kid to get hold of a gun, but down here guns are typically illegal (6 months in prison per bullet, etc, and shotguns licensed for pigeon shooting are the only legal guns) yet all the criminals have hand and machine guns, and shooting crimes are out of control.

[nemaroller]

Well - just to add to the debate about gun laws. They don't appear to make a difference one way or another. Recent studies have shown this - detrimental to opposing arguments of both the NRA AND the anti-gun lobby.

As Master stated, before 1991, millions of rural US teenagers had shotguns and rifles in their cars in US school parking lots - mostly during hunting season - since the dawn of the country.

Before Columbine in 1999, school shootings were unheard of. I wish I could point at the fact that guns are the cause. But they definitely aren't. As of 1997 (1991 law was found unconstitutional), US federal law prohibits anyone from carrying a weapon within 1000 feet of any school. Which is perhaps why schools have now seen a dramatic increase in school shootings. But I wouldn't really promote that as a cause either.

Still, the odds of being shot at a school in the US is less than 1 in a million statistically - and of course, as you can see on BBC news 'Have Your Say', all these tragedies end up being is political fire for the opposing liberal and conservative minds.

[MasterBlaster]

Before Columbine in 1999, school shootings were unheard of. I wish I could point at the fact that guns are the cause. But they definitely aren't. As of 1997 (1991 law was found unconstitutional), US federal law prohibits anyone from carrying a weapon within 1000 feet of any school. Which is perhaps why schools have now seen a dramatic increase in school shootings. But I wouldn't really promote that as a cause either.

Hmm funny that's just around the time that parents started getting arrested for spanking their kids. Or video games replaced the girl next door as the preferred choice of babysitter. I wonder if those kids at columbine would have gone off the deep end if their dads had stomped a mudhole in their arse the first second they ever joked about using a gun on another hu man. Or even better If the parents of the kids who abused these to kids to the point of murder actually took a leather belt to their asss for bullying their weaker peers.

to the masses
Brilliant! all of you pussified morons go ahed and blame an inanimate object for the problems you created by not having the ballz to raise your kids. Last time I heard guns can't aim and pull the trigger themselvs.

[learning c]

ok i am not really up on the details, but is this a summary of the issue?

on the one hand we have the issue of personal defense to be used against drug dealers and robbers and we can't wait for 30 minutes for the police to arrive and there is a machine gun in our face ready to kill us just for a couple of hundred dollars for their next hit.

on the other hand is the issue of guns being used as a terrorist weapon against kids in schools or by postal workers on psychiatric drugs, keeping in mind that baseball bats, kitchen knifes, cars, martial arts, pesticides, electricity, fire, large trucks, lawn fertilizer and even planes can all be used to kill multiple sometimes thousands of people.

[rory]

on the other hand is the issue of guns being used as a terrorist weapon against kids in schools or by postal workers on psychiatric drugs, keeping in mind that baseball bats, kitchen knifes, cars, martial arts, pesticides, electricity, fire, large trucks, lawn fertilizer and even planes can all be used to kill multiple sometimes thousands of people.

round here anyone can just walk in a store and buy as many machetes as they like, and its not illegal to carry around .. and yep pestisides, bleach, etc, are also dangerous for real.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Whatever, cry like a little girl if you'd like. All I know is if that dipshet ever tried shooting me with an "Illegal" weapon, he will promply be choking on slugs from my "Fantastic Freedom".

No he won't, cause you'd be dead.

What really pisses me off is cowboys who think that having a gun is some kind of magic shield. The reason it pisses me off so much is because of all the hiking. People keep asking me whether or not I carry a gun. NO! They weigh far too much, and I have come plenty close to dying from several different things, none of which would have been improved by having a gun.

You have to consider the circumstances in which any tool would be useful. If some bad guy decides to shoot you, having a gun won't save you unless he gives you time to get it, draw it, cock it, and point it. Now the only way that will happen is if you happen to have the gun with you at all times. Do you keep one in the spout, too? Or will you have to cock it first? Will the bad guy (or mountain lion) let you go get it from your bag?

Thirty people died in the second event, and two in the first event. You can bet your bottom dollar that if you were either of the first two, you would have died, because you never had the time to get to a gun. If you were among the thirty, you'd have to analyze the map to figure out whether you would have had a chance if you had been packing.

Don't rely on a gun. It isn't some kind of magic talisman. It's a tool, nothing more, and in this case it is a tool you almost certainly wouldn't have had a chance to use unless you were already a paranoid nutcase to begin with. I won't carry a gun hiking because the only way it could possibly help would be if I kept it on my person, and loaded, at all times (and frankly, that probably wouldn't help either, unless it was a cannon). Since hypothermia, falling, falling objects, and bad judgement are all FAR more likely threats, I would prefer to dedicate the weight of a gun towards preventions for those things if I was inclined to add that much weight.

Now, you might think that criminals would be deterred if they thought you might have a gun.....Yeah...those folks are notable for their carefully considered actions. This guy shot himself. He INTENDED to die. Perhaps he wasn't too worried about being killed.

Everybody I work with is a hunter. I'm the only one who doesn't have a gun, and that's because I would rather buy meat shrink wrapped. Yeah, I know where it comes from, but why would I want to go through all that hassle? I'm not opposed to guns, I'm opposed to people who think that a gun will solve their problems. Statistically, gun owners are considerably more likely to die of gunshot wounds than non gun owners. Of course, there could be all kinds of auto correlation going on in that statistic, but that's an indication of how safe guns make you.

By the way, a few years back, Virginia was THE place to buy guns. It was the biggest source for weapons used in crime on the whole east coast. I don't know if that has changed since then.

[Shaggy Hiker]

on the one hand we have the issue of personal defense to be used against drug dealers and robbers and we can't wait for 30 minutes for the police to arrive and there is a machine gun in our face ready to kill us just for a couple of hundred dollars for their next hit.

Exactly! If the guns in your face, the window of opportunity has already closed. Since the other guy will always make the first move, since they are the one with bad intent, the opportunity is theirs to lose.

[learning c]

so a fire can kill hundreds and destroy millions of dollars of property, do we ban matches?

[MasterBlaster]

No he won't, cause you'd be dead.

Why would I be dead? You're correct that in a confrontation I may get it first and blindsided for that matter. It takes me 1.3 seconds to draw aim and shoot effectivly enought to hit a soda can @ 25 feet. There are a dozen different ways I could show you to buy that 1.3 seconds without getting shot. Go back to your anti-gun website and cut and paste some more BS. You are correct that quite a few people feel "safe" carrying a weapon when they should not. Being able to effectivley use one takes thousands of hours of practice and training. Most don't have the time, motivation or the finances to make it happen. I do and I have and you have absolutly no right to take away my right to level the playing field.

[MasterBlaster]

Exactly! If the guns in your face, the window of opportunity has already closed. Since the other guy will always make the first move, since they are the one with bad intent, the opportunity is theirs to lose.

Bullsheit! That is the exact same attitude that these pieces of krap feed off of. I'll tell you what. Grow a pair. There were how many students in that room. I don't know the exact count but there were more people there than the capacity of bullets in those guns. That attitude got 33 people killed and no one charged that guy and stopped him. If you're going to die might as well go out swinging than curled up in a ball with krap in your drawers.

[Xanith]

In January of 2006 Virginia passed a law that made it illegal for anyone to process or carry a gun anywhere near a school, include colleges and university’s. It was heralded as a landmark piece of legislation that would make schools safer. Well it looks as if the only success of this legislation seems to be is giving a maniac free reign on a college campus without having to worry about being interrupted while he was on a killing spree.

A short time ago there was an incident in a mall in which a young man decided he will go kill some people, because there was an off duty policeman carrying a gun in that mall this man was stopped before he could kill a great many more people. There have been other incidents I remember where a person with a gun out in society prevented a greater loss of life from occurring.

While you might be right, guns in the hands of people who do not know how to use them or do not understand that if you draw your weapon you better be prepared to kill someone are totally useless and perhaps a danger to themselves and everyone else. However those people who are properly trained and understand what it means to carry a gun can and do save lives every day by using a firearm. You do not have to be a police officer or ex-military to be properly trained in the use of a weapon. It’s just a matter of taking the time to get trained in the proper use of a firearm.

I am so tired of every time there is some kind of mass shooting the anti-gun people come crawling out of the woodwork to try and limit the Constitutional right of Americans.

X

[nemaroller]

Well, Virigina certainly isn't the model of responsible gun law enactment. And the NRA backed laws limit the rights of Virigian citizens on how they wish to govern their own community.

http://nraila.com/CurrentLegislation...aspx?ID=1068-L

They (the NRA) have taken gun control out of the hands of local people and made it illegal for local municipalities to enact their own guns laws. Taking away the power to legislate your own community is a fringe on freedom in my book.

They also made it impossible for local communities to bring forth a lawsuit against gun manufactuers. How restricing an entity that can sue another entity is even constitutional - I don't know, but if the law was legally challenged, would certainly be struck down. No other entity in any industry has such protection. That law certainly destroys a greater liberty to favor the priviledged few.

They removed the one-handgun-per-month purchase limit. Sure, some collectors will mildly benefit from that lifted restriction, but it only serves to benefit people who buy guns legally only to sell that privately where there are no restrictions.

"B 227, sponsored by Senator Ken Cuccinelli, eliminates the provision that allowed certain counties to require a permit to purchase a handgun, and requires that any records kept by the counties of these purchases be destroyed."

Great, in the case of the guy who shot 33 people this last week, the county would never know where he purchased the weapon. They would have to obtain that from the State.

The theme here is centralizing power is never a good idea. It broadens the reach of someone's idea of how to govern and legislate over all areas. The Republican party use to be the frontrunner on decentralization. Now, with the NRA (who have an agenda rather distant from most gun owners) lining the politician's pockets - Virginians can be ensured that their voice counts for far less on how to govern their communities.

[bgmacaw]

If some bad guy decides to shoot you, having a gun won't save you unless he gives you time to get it, draw it, cock it, and point it. Now the only way that will happen is if you happen to have the gun with you at all times. Do you keep one in the spout, too? Or will you have to cock it first? Will the bad guy (or mountain lion) let you go get it from your bag?

There are training drills that help you get an edge on this. One I did in firearms training was to draw my pistol from a gym bag and shoot 3 close range targets accurately within seconds. Of course, continuous training is needed to maintain this edge. I'm not sure if I could pull this off today, 25 years later.

Training is also needed to shoot to kill without being hesitant. Generally this kind of training is done only fully in military and police programs although some argue that 1st person shooter games provide the same kind of mental training. Without this training, most people will hesitate unless they're insane or under great stress.

Proper training also makes a huge difference in safely handling firearms. Unfortunately, too many people skip this crucial step. Accidental firearm injury stats drop to a very low percentage when untrained or poorly trained cases are removed.

Now, you might think that criminals would be deterred if they thought you might have a gun.....Yeah...those folks are notable for their carefully considered actions. This guy shot himself. He INTENDED to die. Perhaps he wasn't too worried about being killed.

Criminals, meaning relatively sane criminals, will avoid situations where they might encounter an armed person and will choose easier, unarmed, targets unless they consider the armed target is worth the risk. Insane people, like the VT shooter, usually don't make such distinctions.

[MasterBlaster]

Great, in the case of the guy who shot 33 people this last week, the county would never know where he purchased the weapon. They would have to obtain that from the State.

There was no serial number. It is probably untraceable unless they can acid dip it out. I'll guarentee it was a stolen gun sold to him by an ocean city or VA Beach gangsta and wouldn't be suprised one bit if they trace the bore on it and find out it was used in other shootings. No gangsta is going to dump a filed 9 mm glock unless it is broken or "dirty".