Is this an end to my carrer in programming [Archive]

vivek_master146

May 27th, 2006, 05:44 AM

Hi i want to become a sofware engineer but i have taken commerce stream witha ccounts and economics. generally programmers choose science with maths. but i have taken commerce. is this an end in my carrer in this field or i can do it without schhol studies and can i get a good job when i grow up. i am a vb programmer now

Pino

May 27th, 2006, 05:52 AM

you cant do it without school studies, but you can do it with out maths and science.

Its just you will have to work a bit harder and show yourself better that the ones doing maths/science

ComputerJy

May 27th, 2006, 06:16 AM

Anybody can become a VB programmer, it's not tough

You need to learn Maths especially, I wouldn't hire a graduate with low maths grades.

Pino

May 27th, 2006, 06:20 AM

Anybody can become a VB programmer, it's not tough

Anyone can be one, but only a few can become good at it.

ComputerJy

May 27th, 2006, 07:13 AM

Anyone can be one, but only a few can become good at it.
And how would I know if he's good at it?

Pino

May 27th, 2006, 07:27 AM

you wouldnt,

I'm just sayign the good programmers could sell themselves at an interview without having maths qualification

RhinoBull

May 27th, 2006, 09:25 AM

You really don't have to go to college to become a programmer so if you wish to continue doing this is entirely upto you - just remeber one thing and one thing only: YOU WILL NEVER STOP LEARNING FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE IN THIS BUSINESS.

Also, programmer that studied finance is more valuable in the Wall Street district then those that studied math and computer science.

Pino

May 27th, 2006, 09:26 AM

Also, programmer that studied finance is more valuable in the Wall Street district then those that studied math and computer science.

Good point!

Shaggy Hiker

May 27th, 2006, 09:29 AM

It would be strange to go to school for one thing, then when you graduate, start looking for jobs in a totally different field. However, if you are looking for a job that allows you to use what you learned in school along with the programming, there are plenty of those out there. Programming houses will probably only hire programers straight out of school, though they would probably hire somebody without the degree once they have work-proven abilities. Other industries have just as much need for programers, but they often don't recognize how great a need until they get one. You can create tools that would help most businesses, at which point, the business may make you more of a programer than whatever you were before.

vivek_master146

May 28th, 2006, 05:02 AM

But if i go for an interview and if i will show a certificate of b.com then will they consider me for the job of programming?

ComputerJy

May 28th, 2006, 05:51 AM

But if i go for an interview and if i will show a certificate of b.com then will they consider me for the job of programming?
What is "b.com"?

vivek_master146

May 28th, 2006, 06:04 AM

Bacheolar of commerce(Graduate in commerce which includes accounts, economics,Business studies,engish and hindi)

namrekka

May 28th, 2006, 07:11 AM

If I need a carpenter, how do I know its a good one?

ComputerJy

May 28th, 2006, 07:38 AM

If I need a carpenter, how do I know its a good one?
You take a look at his work.
But we don't make closets, we don't work solo... bad example

namrekka

May 28th, 2006, 07:44 AM

Who is we? Me included?

litlewiki

May 28th, 2006, 07:51 AM

or get inspired by BILL GATES ;)

ComputerJy

May 28th, 2006, 08:40 AM

Who is we? Me included?
I'll throw an exception and include you ;)
WE: Software Developers

gigemboy

May 28th, 2006, 08:06 PM

Make a few good projects yourself. Supply them when you interview. I don't have a computer science background (although Info Sys Tech isn't too far off). If I were trying to get a job in the future, I would show them a lot of the projects I have done myself so they can see tangible evidence (along with mentioning 4 jewels on vbforums hehe) Be sure you actually did them yourself (along with providing source)...

Hack

May 29th, 2006, 06:03 AM

I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in English and I've been in IT for almost 27 years. When I was in college, there were no Computer Science degrees offered. In fact, I don't recall there even being a computer science course offered, much less a possible degree.

I work with one programmer that has a Bachelor of Science in Accounting, and other with a degree in Music. It is easier to get into programming with a programming degree, but it is not essential. If you don't have a degree in programming, you will have to work a lot harder to get your foot in the door than would someone with such a degree, but it is still possible.

Shaggy Hiker

May 29th, 2006, 09:46 AM

I think it was probably easier to sneak into programming a decade or two back, because there really weren't as many CS type degrees. Skill alone could be the determining factor because degrees just weren't that common. That may have changed a little now, and will probably change more over time.

RhinoBull

May 29th, 2006, 10:04 AM

... That may have changed a little now, and will probably change more over time.
Maybe a little but not much and I don't see that change in the future by a lot as well.
Thing is that it takes much longer to learn say accounting then some common technics in programming regardles of any language. You will master your basics over years but you don't have to go to school. With accounting is different - you must go to school for a few years (4 at least).
Advantage of [acc degree+basic programming] vs [plain programmer] is huge.
I'm not suggesting someone doesn't have to learn CS - not at all.All I'm saying is that today's employeers (most of them) are looking for someone with expertise in business for basically one reason - it takes much longer to learn it.
So, having said that I believe that vivek_master146 has better chance to get a job as a programmer then someone with degree in CS.

Al42

May 29th, 2006, 10:31 PM

Vivek, you have at least 4 years of school ahead of you, so you can take a programming-oriented course for those 4 years, and you'll have an additional background in economics, which isn't a bad thing.

Harsh Gupta

May 31st, 2006, 02:40 AM

just to tell you that if you want to make your career in S/W programming, then in India, you should have Maths as your subject.

further I am surprised that you havenot mentioned Maths in the B.Com. if you do opt it then you can do MCA later, but again you need to have Maths background.

and it doesnot matter if you dont have Science background. remember only Maths

vivek_master146

May 31st, 2006, 02:50 AM

Yes harsh u r very right that maths is very important. but i don't have maths in my +12 but can i take maths when i go to college without having maths in class 12?

Harsh Gupta

May 31st, 2006, 03:45 AM

Yes harsh u r very right that maths is very important. but i don't have maths in my +12 but can i take maths when i go to college without having maths in class 12?
i am not really sure about it, dont have much knowledge about it now. been not interested in this area. the government policies have ruined the entire education system here. but just goto any college and gather information regarding it. goto the Maths department or Science department, or maybe Commerece department and also try asking them if you have other alternatives if they cannot offer you a course with Maths.

there are few open universities which offer you courses in IT field without Maths in +2, but it does not mean that you skip your regular course. ppl without regular course degree dont get opportunities easily and many ppl dont realise it.

i know this is gonna to be very tedious, but then what's simple out here now!!

BTW, just wanted to ask you, if you were a commerce student in +2, why you didnot opt Maths?? i mean it sounds really wierd, Commerce WITHOUT Maths!!

Pino

May 31st, 2006, 04:35 AM

Harsh Gupta

Jun 1st, 2006, 05:44 AM

Maths is a factor, but really isnt as important as people make out.

My experiance of it is simple, I was told from day one at college to do maths I did it and it basicly took up all my time so i dropped it. Just about to finish college and about 2 months ago I was offered a job (i was competing with uni grads) without the maths.

I knew I was going to be an underdog going in, but I just made sure everything I did was what it should be.

In the UK especially, everyone has education, not everyone can program. Companys are looking more for experiance in the field now.

Pino
yes i agree with you, but here in India, Maths is, like, an eligibilty criteria. the universities here will not consider the OPs candidature, if he's not having Maths.

FYI, me and OP are from India thats why i posted according to the current university system.

and thank you for reminding me Pino. Vivek can do MS from some foreign university even without Maths.

vivek_master146

Jun 2nd, 2006, 01:49 AM

Hi harsh. Good news. i have taken maths in class 12 though i had elready submitted the form but it was not processed so i can take maths. harsh can i do bca after passing 12 in commerce with maths.

Harsh Gupta

Jun 2nd, 2006, 07:43 AM

Hi harsh. Good news. i have taken maths in class 12 though i had elready submitted the form but it was not processed so i can take maths. harsh can i do bca after passing 12 in commerce with maths.
yes you can, as i said that you need to have Maths.

but just dont follow my sayings. as i said earlier thats now many things have changed, so you need to do some RnD on your own for this, like is it feasible to do BCA and then MCA or maybe B.Com and then MCA etc.

and you always have option of doing MS from foreign univ. after your graduation.

vivek_master146

Jun 23rd, 2006, 04:42 AM

Hi harsh i have dropped maths as cbse maths is very tough and i have not studied anything in class 11.so is there any possibity to become software enginerrer without taking maths. maybe i can take maths at college level?

zuperman

Jun 28th, 2006, 12:19 PM

i am a database/business developer... im graduated in accounting and economics... i was employed in a software house that makes business applications... they like programmers with this kind of knowlegde...

lets supose you are a programmer without knowledge of accounting... how the hell do you program an acounting system ?

your economics/accounting knowledge can open you many doors...

zuperman

Jun 28th, 2006, 12:20 PM

BTW if you are on a economics/accounting area you will have to know maths also...

Hack

Jun 28th, 2006, 12:34 PM

lets supose you are a programmer without knowledge of accounting... how the hell do you program an acounting system ?What?????????? :confused:

PoppyCock and Pish!!!!!!!!!

I have a Bachelor degree with a major in English.

I have worked for, and built systems for:

Manufacturing Industry
Insurance Industry
Gambling Industry
Advertising Industry
Banking Industry
Utilities Industry

And I did not know, and still don't know, butt all about any of them (with the possible exception of Insurance, as I'm now working full time as a commerical developer working on Insurance applications, so I've kinda learned a bit about how it works).

You do not need to know quat diddly about an industry to build an application/system for it. All you need are specs and the ability to code to specs.

I have done it time and time again. :)

RhinoBull

Jun 28th, 2006, 03:23 PM

...lets supose you are a programmer without knowledge of accounting... how the hell do you program an acounting system ?...
While I agree that employeers like to have developers with business background on board I would disagree that it's a necessity - as Hack had mentioned (or he meant to say that :) ) your brain (and some business analyst) is all you need. ;)

Hack

Jun 29th, 2006, 06:33 AM

While I agree that employeers like to have developers with business background on board I would disagree that it's a necessity - as Hack had mentioned (or he meant to say that :) ) your brain (and some business analyst) is all you need. ;)Yeah....what Rhino said! :D

Even then, my experience has been that you generally have to train the BA. I've got my current BA pretty much whipped into shape. :bigyello:

zuperman

Jul 2nd, 2006, 06:08 AM

You do not need to know quat diddly about an industry to build an application/system for it. All you need are specs and the ability to code to specs.

I have done it time and time again. :)
the background helps in building the specs... i cant tell if it's a necessity...but i know for sure that open many job doors...

Nexus7

Jul 4th, 2006, 10:51 AM

lets supose you are a programmer without knowledge of accounting... how the hell do you program an acounting system ?

I feel to strongly disagree with your first statement also. If you have an open mind and a good basic education, preferably in sciences, you are supposed to be skilled enough in facing any kind of problem, using rationality, starting from zero knowledge. That's where maths and physics help a lot, in developing a rational and analitical mind.
To me, it makes the job even more interesting if it is something new, and usually increases my motivation (witch is for me sometimes a critical factor).

zuperman

Jul 5th, 2006, 05:33 AM

I feel to strongly disagree with your first statement also. If you have an open mind and a good basic education, preferably in sciences, you are supposed to be skilled enough in facing any kind of problem, using rationality, starting from zero knowledge. That's where maths and physics help a lot, in developing a rational and analitical mind.
To me, it makes the job even more interesting if it is something new, and usually increases my motivation (witch is for me sometimes a critical factor).
feel free to disagree as you want...
i have the knowledge of accounting and being a programmer i know the kind of programs that people without this knowledge make...:( of course its possible to make a good accounting system without it... but its very difficult...

Nexus7

Jul 5th, 2006, 07:23 AM

feel free to disagree as you want...
i have the knowledge of accounting and being a programmer i know the kind of programs that people without this knowledge make...:( of course its possible to make a good accounting system without it... but its very difficult...

I have to correct myself :blush: I disagree if you mean it in a general way, but (at least) in the particular field of accounting I have to agree... was once tasked to make an accounting program, but the terminology was a real problem.

RhinoBull

Jul 5th, 2006, 07:56 AM

feel free to disagree as you want...
i have the knowledge of accounting and being a programmer i know the kind of programs that people without this knowledge make...:( of course its possible to make a good accounting system without it... but its very difficult...
That's the whole point: it doesn't hurt to be educated in more than just the programming but you don't really have to be.

sevenhalo

Jul 5th, 2006, 08:11 AM

lets supose you are a programmer without knowledge of accounting... how the hell do you program an acounting system ?
Work directly with a business analyst.

(Sorry to rererererequote, but that's how I handle jobs that might take indepth comprehension)

And to the original question, you're 17. This isn't the "end of your programming career," hell... This isn't even the beginning of your career.

zuperman

Jul 6th, 2006, 03:58 AM

That's the whole point: it doesn't hurt to be educated in more than just the programming but you don't really have to be.
agree :thumb:

zuperman

Jul 6th, 2006, 03:59 AM

Work directly with a business analyst.

sometimes is not that easy...

sevenhalo

Jul 6th, 2006, 07:14 AM

sometimes is not that easy...
Article on PM and BA relationship (http://www.allpm.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1517&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

If it's not easy, it means you have a BA who isn't doing their job. All they do essentially is "bridge the gap" and sit in meetings.

RhinoBull

Jul 6th, 2006, 08:08 AM

...If it's not easy, it means you have a BA who isn't doing their job...
... and there is always users community that really know the business better than any BA (in case BA is useless).

abhijit

Jul 7th, 2006, 02:39 PM

Hey I used to be BA, till I realized that there was more fun in programming.

abhijit

Jul 7th, 2006, 02:44 PM

Anybody can become a VB programmer, it's not tough

You need to learn Maths especially, I wouldn't hire a graduate with low maths grades.

Thats just sad. My math was terrible in school. However I was good at solving puzzles.
Wouldn't you rather hire a guy for his ability to solve puzzles.

sevenhalo

Jul 7th, 2006, 02:52 PM

... and there is always users community that really know the business better than any BA (in case BA is useless).
I've tried this and it seems like I only get the "luxury specs." If you want to know how a form/report should be layed out or tab order, they're more then happy to help. If you try and talk to them about the procedure for returning an item (who needs to be notified, how to handle inventory, etc); you'll get the specs in random phases during the dev time.

I also got low scores in math. Not because I couldn't do it, but because I wouldn't do the home work (and when I did, I didn't show my work). They grade repetition; not logic and analytical concepts (which is what you really need as a programmer). I got mid to high 90's on all the tests, but took a hit on the homework.

ewomack

Jul 13th, 2006, 04:30 PM

I completely fell into development by picking up books, writing some programs, distributing them to co-workers (boss included), and when the boss switched jobs he decided to take me with him as a developer (since he had seen my work and liked it). So I developed for a few years and then moved into Project Management by the same method. At the time I only had a Philosophy B.A., but I was apparently easy to work with so people took me on. Being easy to work with is a really underrated skill to have. If you're an amazing wizard of a coder but a pain in the *** no one will want to work with you unless they absolutely have to.

So there are ways to "sneak" into the development world. It takes a little bit of luck, but it can happen.