Is it true that the devil really existed?

[VBKNIGHT]

Can you prove it?
So what was his real name?
Tiamat?, Beelzeebub?, Pan?, Lucifer?, Satan?, etc...

[Sophtware]

George Bush? ;)

He/it is a christian concept based on previous religons...

[tumblingdown]

VBKNIGHT,

Do you have something on your mind? Are you taking life a bit to seriously at the mo?


td.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Yes, VBKNIGHT. There is a devil whose kingdom is called hell. To prove this, you must assume/believe that the Bible is true.

[kovan]

i thought its name was jethro? :)

(according to islam)
ya there is a devil.. and no his kingdom is not HELL
its his place after end of time(meaning thats where he will be, among some others...(jethro?) :)....

his name is Satan, or Iblis
he was not a fallen angel..
he is among the beings of Jinn...
blah blah, i can go on

but for now i will just think of jethro when wanting to know who the devil is

[jdavison]

Kovan is right. Atleast a Christian and a Muslim can agree on that. Satan will be cast to hell after the tribulations period of believed seven years. I do believe satans original name may have been lucifer(holder of light) and is believed to be the only angel to ever hold two angelic postitions. Satan was cast out of heaven and now roams here. Most people don't believe because they don't want to. You can give people all the proof they want some time and if they don't want to believe they won't. This is something you will have to decide for yourself. If you would like to discuss this more you can email me at jdavison2000@yahoo.com I may beable to answer any questions you have and if I can't know people who can.

[kovan]

what is an angel?
according to islam - a form of being without any freedom to make decision...
so there for satan could not have been an angel since angels have no free will..

according to islam again.. quran clearly states that satan was of Jinn being..
but because he was so righteus, he was among the angels
then he failed to prostrate to adam
and that lead him to the evil dude he is

so in short
muslims dont believe satan was one of the angels
however, that he was so good that he was with the angels in the sense that he was close to perfect..
and his pride got in the way of prostrating.. to adam
as he claims "why would i prostrate to him, he is made of clay and i am made of fire..."
and this is another example.. muslims believe that angels are made up of light (Nur)...

if anyone want references to what i said
let me know

Jdavidson

muslims dont believe in any specific number of years..

he will be alive til end of time
and he has been given the will to try to manipulate peoples minds, however he is NOT responsible for their actions.
he just tells humans to do something, if the human does it, its humans fault, he is only calling them to do it, but not doing it for them
(all this is clearly stated)
if you want references, it can be provided



[Edited by kovan on 11-14-2000 at 12:29 PM]

[jdavison]

I wasn't refering to that kovan, I was talking about the fact that satan isn't in hell the rest of it you infered I said we agreed on. But satan was an angel and angels are capable of intependent though which the bible shows through and through along with ancient jewish documents and writings. Satan was second only to God and in satans fall he took a third of the angels with him.

[Edited by jdavison on 11-14-2000 at 01:22 PM]

[Sam Finch]

so who created Satan then? and why?

[jdavison]

It can only be asumed that god created the angel and satan (seperated to satisfy everybody) Why he did is uncertain and was done before the time of man. So in all honest I don't know

<joke>
God created satan so he could have something evil enough to compete with Jethro in Australia
:rolleyes:
</joke>

I really have no idea why God created satan, perhaps it was an "experiment" to create a better angel(is that possible?), that failed..

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Satan is a fallen angel. He was an archangel second to God in command. Angels (and the devil WAS an angel) were created to perform God's bidding.

[Sam Finch]

Dennis kinda illustrated my point, which is if god is infallible then if he didn't intend satan to be what he is that would be a faliure.

I didn't mean to illustrate that....

*Dennis holds up piece of paper*

This is the illustration....

*It's a picture of a house*



Ummm.. but seriously, perhaps when adam & eve bit into that apple it allowed satan to expand his "empire"

[Sam Finch]

I think that still counds as faliure, Is there a christian opinion on why satan fell.

[barrk]

He slipped on a bar of soap.

I can prove this just as well as anyone else will be able to prove any other theory.

[Sam Finch]

err soap wasn't invented until 800 AD (by the french ironicly enough, although they used it to slick their hair back, I don't know who was the first to think of washing with it)

[barrk]

do the french bathe???? Does this prove that satan was french?

yes... haven't you ever heard of french devils?

[Sam Finch]

no

[barrk]

no

[jdavison]

as far as if god actually intended for us and satan to fall, only god knows. Satan was cast out because of jealousy

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. 13 For you said to yourself, 'I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. 14 I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.' 15 But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths.
Isaiah 12-15

You can read the whole chapter here:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=isa+14&version=nlt&showtools=0

Dennis is also correct when adam and eve bit the apple, they gave their authority over all the earth to satan

oh, wait, that was "asian devils"
my mistake.. :rolleyes:

[Sam Finch]

Dennis, what are you talking about?

actually I shouldn't of asked because you clearly don't know.

I was trying to make a joke....
obviously it wasn't very funny...

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Satan was thrown out because he became jealous and tried to overthrow God.

As far as why God let it all happen, it depends on your theology. Most people believe that everything that happens is the will of God. Therefore, it was part of God's perfect plan that satan was thrown out and that adam and eve sinned.

There is no such entity as Satan/The Devil whatever. This was a construct of the early christian church, based on previous religons....will dig out an old text book which details the History of The Devil.

Dennis and Kovan

....lol....very droll boys. We all know that if there was a devil then that devil's name would be Celine Dion.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Jethro,
What I gather from what you said is that you don't believe that God exists. If you did, then it says in the Bible that satan exists. What do you think is resposible for demon-posessed people?

[HarryW]

Urgent clarification:

God and the Bible are not the same thing. Don't confuse them. Belief in the Bible implies belief in God. Belief in God does not imply belief in the Bible.

I have heard that there was no mention of the Devil/Satan/whatever by the Church before some time in the Dark Ages, or therabouts I think. I don't remember the source of this information, but it seemed very reasonable at the time. Something to do with suppressing a peasants' revolt or something along those lines.

Help help I'm being oppressed!
I'm sure someone recognises that ;)

demon-possessed people.....try looking up mental disorders in your family medical book.

I have never stated l don't believe in God. All l have stated is that my god doesn't need a few extra bucks and doesn't reside in a patriarchical church structure.

Are you prepared to claim that you believe in the christian god, therefore kovan is wrong and on an elevator to hell. That is one hell of an ego trip.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

HarryW,
1. God wrote the Bible. It says that in the Bible. If you believe in God, then God's words are written in the Bible. Therefore, if you have common sense, you will believe the Bible. (besides the Bible being the most historicaly accurate documentation intact today)
2. You heard wrong. The Bible was written BEFORE Jesus was born. The first few books of the Bible talk about satan. Suppressing a peasants' revolt? LoL

Jethro,
1. God exists
2. I don't think you have any idea what you are saying about a few extra bucks and doesn't reside in a patriarchical church structure. (is this some type of mental babble?)
3. I do not condemn kovan or anyone else.
4. I do believe in God. (previously stated)
5. This is not an ego trip. These truths are not mine. They are in the Bible. (and yes, I do believe that the Bible is the word of God)

[HarryW]

Edwin, I would appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence. How many people here do you think are unaware that the Bible (Old Testament at least) was written before 0 AD? Not many I assure you, and I'm not one of them.

Also, I say again, believing in God does not mean you believe in the Bible. No, it has nothing to do with common sense. If you are going to discuss this then you must seperate the concept of Deity and Doctrine. I would ask you what makes you think it's so clear that God wrote the Bible and that God couln't just exist without having anything to do with the Bible, but I get the impression from what seems to be your viewpoint that you would give an answer based on your personal beliefs, which is not the issue here.

I would like to bring to your attention that God wrote the Koran, according to Islamic doctrine. So what now links the concept of a Deity (who we are calling God) specifically to the Bible (Christian doctrine) and the Christian faith? The existance of God is not dependant on the Bible.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Well duh... You said that someone made up satan after 0 AD. How do you think satan is mentioned in the Bible then?

Are you Islamic?

Do you think God made creation? Or, do you believe some alien accidently launched a nuke and caused the solar system including our planet to spring up out of nowhere.

I justify my statements. Deity and Doctrine are dependant on beliefs. Man is ignorant of higher systems. If man knows there is God, where did he learn this? In the Bible. There is no scientific proof that God exists or that the Bible is true except for creation.

As for personal beliefs,
Not trying to insult anyone, but I believe that the Koran is not true. I believe that there is one God and that God is the God in the Bible.

[HarryW]

You are not even rocognising the possibility that the Bible may have been changed. I don't discount this possibility.

As I said it was something I heard, I read it on this forum in fact. I'm not going to claim it's true because I don't know.

Not that it bears any relation in particular to this, but no I am not Islamic.

I don't know why you keep associating Deity and Doctrine as dependant on one another; they clearly are not. The existance of God does not require the truth of the Bible. Perhaps this will clear it up for you: the existance of your God, the particular form of Deity you believe in, implies the truth of the Bible. A God in general, however, most certainly does not.

If man knows there is God, where did he learn this? In the Bible.
Are you suggesting that there was no concept of a God before the Bible? That is a very bold statement, and it looks like pure opinion to me.

There have been many monotheistic religions across the world in the history of mankind. I strongly doubt that the concept of God stemmed from the Bible.

Jews believe in the Old Testament, yes? They also believe in God, but they do not recognise Jesus Christ as the messiah. Do you consider them to have belief in the same God as you?

[HarryW]

Incidentally, in reference to my 'I wish...' thread on my desire to add music to threads, I think I would add 'Mrs Robinson' by the Lemonheads to this one :rolleyes:

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

The Bible has not changed. It has been discovered in numerous different ancient manuscripts that were not discovered till much later.

I was not associating your religion with the logic of this discussion. I was merely curious why you brought up Islam.

You seem to be avoiding my question of your views on creation versus evolution.

I concede that Diety and Doctrine are not necessarily linked in all systems. However, they are both dependent on belief. It is possible that you believe in the Bible (existance) but you do not believe the truths therein so you do not believe in God.

There was concept of God(s) before the Bible. However, they were based on worship of creation. True concept of the Christian God couldn't be realized without first
A. Meeting God or a witness
B. The Bible
A bold statement proceeds from a bold man.

Jews believe in the same God as Christians. They do not have a complete understanding of what God has done for them along with ignorance of grace and justification.


What band is LemonHeads? Never heard of them.

[Edited by Edwin_Drood_1870 on 11-14-2000 at 10:54 PM]

[jcouture100]

Interesting thread... I can't help but play the devil's advocate on this. If God created the Universe, then where did God come from? It's a case that you are trading one unknown question with another. If you say that God has always been, then isn't another just as justified as saying that the Universe has always been? Does that mean that God and the Universe are one and the same?

Personally, I don't care for religions. To me, religions seem to be a construct of man used to control and to many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. I do believe in a God, I just don't think that God limits Him/Her/It self to one religion.

This is just my point of view.

[HarryW]

Well if you'd prefer, there are versions by Simon & Garfunkel, REM, Weezer and Pennywise :) I haven't heard anything of the Lemonheads in quite a few years now, and I know little about them anyway, except that they made a version of 'Mrs. Robinson'. Do you know the song? I just supposed you might approve of the lyrics, that's all.

Anyway back to the point, I see you are concentrating on the specifically Christian God again. Well if you don't want to discuss the concept of God without Christianity then I won't try and make you (not that I presume to suppose I could).

You're right, I have avoided your questions about my views on creation versus evolution. Personally I am sceptical of them both. My views, my beliefs (although they aren't really beliefs) are not easy to qualify, nor would I particularly care to. They are my own and I don't ask or expect anyone to agree with me. Don't worry I'm not a cultist or anything ;) A simplistic view might be that I am a borderline Agnostic/Christian, but that, as I said, would be simplistic.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

jcouture100,
God existed when nothing else did. A scientific impossibily but God made the rules. Nothing that I can think of could attempt to justify God as being creation. Can something create itself? No. There is always creation and creator. Your post seems to imply that God shifts from monotheisism to polytheisism when convienent.

HarryW,
No hard feelings? Didn't mean to flame or anything. Never heard of Mrs. Robinson either. Does it have something to do with theology? If so, I think I am tired of theology for a few days... well, maybe a few hours.

I guess you are probably right in the end. It all comes down beliefs. Afterall, nothing as complex as God can be proven. I encourage you to check out the Christian church. Have you ever gone? If so, what denomination? When I look at the world especially nature, I can't help but realize that God created it. The big bang theory has no truth. Order has never come from disorder.

[HarryW]

Well my predominantly scientific background means I shall have to disagree with you on the last point, and tentatively on the Big Bang theory. I get the impression you are something of a Christian fundamentalist, is this true? Do you evolution shouldn't be taught in schools?

No, no hard feelings, you have been a very gracious opponent ;) Much more so than many anyhow.

I am sure you encourage me to look at Christianity, many do :rolleyes: My parents wer both brought up Christian, one Catholic and on CoE, but I wouldn't really classify myself as either. If I had to I would say I was catholic, but that's more to do with my opinions on the origin of the Church of England than anything else. I have, of course, been to church, although rarely. It seems like a nice kind of place to go sometimes, but as a lifestyle it doesn't sit well with me. I hold some similar reservations to Jethro in some ways too. In case you are still unaware of what he was on about, essentially he was referring to corruption within the Church, tithes, and that sort of thing. I neither expect nor desire anyone to share my specific thoughts on the subject of religion, so organised religion seems somewhat strange.

If you read the old religious debates (a very long one was 'Why such an effort to prove the Bible wrong?', I think it was started by jdavison) then you will see more of my opinions on religion, but coming from a different point of view to the one I have presented here. You will also encounter some thoughts from my good friend Gen-X ;) He seems to have gone AWOL now though.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

I believe that evolution can be taught in schools as long as creationism (is that a word?) is also.

There are some "Christians" (that really aren't) that make it look like the church members are corrupt.

I suggest trying what's called a "non-denominational" church. There might not be one close to you, but it is worth a try. While I respect the Catholic church, catholicism can be very legalistic.

[HarryW]

Well to be honest I think the only person who should decide my beliefs is me. One of the things I am not keen on about organised religion is that I don't feel comfortable with finding one that is a close match for my beliefs and then adopting the rest of the beliefs that accompany that religion. I think that whatever I decide to believe will have to come from within myself. If I have learnt one thing from all the theological debate on this forum it is that nobody can prove anything to someone with differing beliefs to them. Proofs are only personal proofs.

Well anyway, I don't have that much to say, except that I am happy as I am.

[HarryW]

Oh I nearly forgot - 'Mrs Robinson' is not an explicitly theological song, no. It's a catchy tune though, and I like it :) Why don't you download it from Napster or something? I have *checks mp3 collection* 472 other suggestions if you need any more ideas of what to listen to. I doubt you'd like most of them though :rolleyes:

[VBKNIGHT]

Science and Religion can't muddle up 2gether?

[paulw]

Yes, of course Science and Religion can co-exist.

You can easily make a logical synthesis between Scientific 'truth' and Religious 'experience'.

I am a Catholic (note: big C) and a scientist (shock, horror). I believe that God has given me the intelligence (and I do have some Harry) to use my discernment to make judgements about what is right and wrong...

I do not discount the possibility that I have got it wrong, but I hope not. I follow the line of Blaise Pascal (who is a bit of a hero, even though he was French!).

If I believe in God and He does not exist, I lose nothing, if I do not believe in God and He exists, I lose everything, therefore I believe.

Pretty neat proof and I guess we could prove His (or Her) existence by induction (that is a private joke for Harry).

Nobody seems to have mentioned Free Will in all this and if it goes on much longer we might have to start up a Philosophy thread.

Edwin: I totally agree that Order does not come from Disorder (that's classic Entropy) but why does that rule out the Big Bang? That theory states that matter was so dense that physical laws break down, chaos is a meaningless concept in that situation, but interestingly, the exact configuration of matter prior to the Big Bang leads to our current Universe... hmmm

Paul

P.S. For Christians: If there is intelligent life out there, did Christ die on those planets too?

[tumblingdown]

Wasn't that a really crap film starring a big fish...

(oh bugger. wrong thread!)


td.

[kovan]

science and religion
Link (http://www.beconvinced.com/SCIENCEINDEX.htm#SCIENCE%20IN%20THE)

also as a believer in ONE God,
i believe there is a lot truth the so called big ban theory
that the fact the universe is expenading.....


[Edited by kovan on 11-15-2000 at 07:54 AM]

[jdavison]

I didn't read all this since my last post but saw a few things I want to comment on. What is believed to be the oldest book in the bible, Job, does reference satan numerous time. 0 ad was probably 200 years after the death of Jesus on the cross. This goes according to the jewish calender. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You don't want to see something, fine, thats your perogative but that doesn't mean its not so. I don't think air exists because I can't see it, but does that means its not there.

Science and religion can and have coexisted. Its only because of the arrogance of humans that it has changed.

Harry, I agree you should be the one to decide what you believe. There is truth in the bible and I think Genx did this a while ago but proved that anybody can completely warp what is actually said. It is all of our responsibility to find the facts. But just to tell you the church is not always right and you should always challenge your beliefs, wether christian, aithiest, muslim... to come to the truth.

Kovan seems to think he is the only one who believes in ONE God. Well your wrong, I believe in one God. God is a 3 fold being like us who were created in his image. Body(Christ), Soul(father), spirit(holyspirit) but these 3 elements make up a whole being(one). The soul is the main controling figure, this is who we are. The body has a mind (our physical desires) of its own which will conflict with our soul or what we know is right. This is why Jesus can be the son of God and God

[kovan]

i and another BILLION people on this earth believe in one God
so i am not the onely one

we went over the trinity, i and every other muslim feels 3 entities dont make one
thats how WE believe, you believe other wize, very cool and respected

[paulw]

Guys,

Give it a rest. Neither of you are interested in debate. You are both just posturing. Get back to the VB, we're safe there.

td - I think you will find that Free Willy was a seminal moment in film-making history, we of the First Church of Willy Worshippers will brook no opposition on this. Anyone saying otherwise will be fed to the piranhas (in a caring, religious sort of way)<ahem>

P.

[kovan]

actually am always up for a good DEBATE :)
besides if we think about vb 24/7
it will not be healthy:)

[jdavison]

Kovan, do you believe we are a three fold being?Do you believe we have a body soul and spirit?

[kovan]

just like every other christian
your trying to prove Gods attributes by having a human as a proof, and saying that, you are trying to say that we are like God, have 3 folds and so does God

here is three RETHORICAL questions:
If jesus died for MY sins, i can do what ever the hell i want and since he already suffered for my sins, then i am forgiven (that is if i believe jesus is way to heaven)

If jesus died, shouldnt god die too?
or now does god have 2 more folds left go to? since jesus being one of them (as you say) died

If Jesus was god(or one of his folds), how does he become his son too?


oh and the bible is NOT direct word of God
its mans interpertation of what God said
and since we know men aint perfect
and neither are their interpertation, what does that lead to?

i guess that makes it 4 rethorical questions

[HarryW]

Well I've pretty much said all I have to say on this thread I think, unless the topic changes. I would just like to mention to Kovan, however, that I think his persistent denial that the concept of the Trinity is possible is getting old. I don't think anybody's asking you to believe it's true Kovan, just to understand how the idea works. It's like a clover leaf, three parts to it but all part of the whole. It's one leaf, but with three distinct parts to it. An ant has a head, thorax and abdomen, you don't say that's 3 beings. Each is an integral part of the whole.

[HarryW]

Kovan, do you actually believe that God can die?

[kovan]

lets move it to a new thread

Christian belief is based on previous religous teachings of other religons.....notably quite a few which could be considered anti-christian today.

The fact that a few people posting here actually believe in the existance of Satan as a tangiable being, should indicate to you that they are quite closed to religous debate, i.e they have been indoctrinated in their own beliefs and will not change, but caren't see that others may have opposing views.

All organised religon is based on the interpretation of subjective writings, by (generally males) people wishing to maintain, justify their own positions.

As Bono says, "My God isn't short a dollar".

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Christian beliefs are not base on previous religous teachings. They are base on the words of God.

People believe that the devil exists. Therefore the debate is closed? WRONG

The Bible was not written by subjective male writers who were trying to justify their positions. The Bible was written through men, but it is the Divine and Holy word of God.


P.S. My God doesn't need your dollar. He owns the universe.

[Apocalypse Dude]

I not a believer in religion but if people believe in that good on them just don't try and convert us no believers okay.

Anyway a good site you all should check out is http://www.religioustolerance.org

If you are firm in your belief in christianity that is fine by me, no problems, respect your rights.


....However.....


The question was "Does the Devil Exist". The answer is NO, never, mythological creature, creation made up from previous religons, does not exist, and never has.

There are exactly two mainstream religons who believe in Satan and possession.

1. The Catholic Church.

2. I believe the Jewish faith.

I have no knowledge of islam's belief in this....kovan come on down!


Now what church are you proposing as the saviour of mankind. No doubt one of those horrid American sects....in which case kindly explain to kovan why your church holds the belief that members of his faith will go to hell. This is the stated belief of Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, and other caring shring folk of that ilk.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

So you are saying that the devil doesn't exist?

[paulw]

Jethro,

For what its worth your theological knowledge is a little shaky (like your VB then :D).

All mainstream Judaeo-Christian religions accept the concept of Satan. Its precise nature is a matter for debate.

As a Catholic, I can tell you that I do NOT believe that all other religions will go to hell, I am not even sure what hell is - possibly this thread on a Sunday evening!!!

A bit of reasoned debate is fine, but everyone seems to be making categorical assertions that are basically unprovable unless you include faith - an inherently unprovable contention.

So how about wrapping it up Guys?

P.

[kovan]

Jethro
your ignorant of islam :)
(hope that gets you going)
hehehe
seriously dude, i think you should LEARN about it
rather than make assumptions like you did before about how we treat the women ect

but back to serious stuff,

make that 3 maintream religions :)
as we believe satan exists as much if not more than christianity and jewdaism

[paulw]

kovan,

I was just pointing out the error of Jethro's ways. I did realise that Islam has the same concept of Satan. Really the question is: can evil be personified?

I would say no, not in the sense of a being with horns, tail etc, but in the same way I don't think God has a great big beard...

Lots of other religions have the same concept of personified evil (ghosts, spirits etc.), so I don't think we can limit it to 3 religions.

Anyway, I don't want to philosophise right now, so I don't think I'll post any more here - nobody is listening anyway.

Cheers,

P.

[jdavison]

I'm going to discuss with Kovan on the new thread. However I want to address the issue of us forcing our beliefs on you. Show me where anybody has done that here. There is not one. First VBknight asked if the devil existed. we all stated our opinion and questions were asked. I explained my position alng with Kovan and others but at no point did anybody try and covert or preach to anybody in this thread. This just, to me, show a closed and biased opinion from the non believing. Just because you think you have all the answers doesn't mean you do. I don't go by any church doctrine or others beliefs unless they can be proven to me in the bible. My opinion has change through time because people have shown me errors ain my understanding and pointed out scriptures that have created new beliefs for me. I have listened and in the passed involved in other religions(the belief that science has the answers is a religion too) I have my reasons for believing what I do. If you don't want to hear them then get out of the thread. But don't complain that we don't listen or are trying to convert you because that is a lie.

[kovan]

PaulW
in islam we believe Satan to be one of the Jinn being
and according to OUR believe
Jinns are described in DETAIL
they are made up of fire
marry, kids, eat, drink, sleep, just like any other human
they are invisible in their ORIGINAL form, but they can take on other forms..
and yes we believe he has horns
not hollywood type..
and we dont believe he got a tail, or holds a stick
and also about God with a beard..

in islam
one who compares ANYTHING to God automatically becomes a disbeliever, because Qur'an clearly states that those who do this are not muslims..

but i agree with you
religion to personify satan, God (however i never came across anything that personified God with human characteristics in islam)

it has a LOT to do with faith
example
according to islam, with all the proofs i have found
i find it to be true.
on saying that
if Islam says "satan has horns"
since i havent seen him, but based on my belief and confident in islam, of course i would believe he has

so big part of the puzzle is based on faith

with Jethro
he is psycho, he is Gen-X II
:)
*cmoon get mad man*
but on a serious note about jethro
he is clearly an athiest and discussion belief with an athiest is like trying to lift a mountain with your bare hands..

[jdavison]

Actually satan doesn't have horns and a tail. He actual looks like an angel which in bible scripture looks like any of us, but much more attractive. Ghost are not necessarily view as evil by any religion that I know of. They are simply a spirit stuck on our plane of existance for a possible number of reasons, but not evil.(I used to be a wiccan)

[kovan]

thats according to YOU
according to islam
thats an accurate description of a JINN
and a satan was among the JINN

i know you believe he was an angel
and totally disagree with what i just said
duhh thats expected

when someone is an angel they are ALL good
cant have any evil in them
so satan was not an angel

[jdavison]

Of course I disagree ;) What fun would we have if I didn't but what exactly is a Jinn? This would help so I know exactly what you are saying. From what I know a Jinn was comparable to an evil genie. I just want to know how far off I am and what it actually is.

[kovan]

jinn is another form of being
like humans they are able to make decisions
and no they are NOT all evil
but majority of them (army of satan....)
there is a really good book out there
its 10 bucks to buy

called "World of Jinn and The Devils"
here is the link
http://www.al-basheer.com/viewBook.asp?itemNum=1002
it will give you all the details you need to know about Jinn beings,

[paulw]

jdavidson,

When did I say that you were trying to force your beliefs on me. My 'complaint' was that you were both couching your language in terms of absolutes.

Quote from Edwin:
"God exists"
Quote from you:
"Satan doesn't have horns and a tail"
Quote from kovan:
"the bible is NOT direct word of God"

All of these are unprovable assertions. You have to use faith. I have no problem with that BUT I resent your misinterpretation of what I said and I particularly resent the inference that I am a liar.

I do not want to fall out with anyone, I was just tring to show the futility of making mutually contradictory assertions that prove little and have no effect on the beliefs of the recipient. Reasoned debate is great. Intemperance is not.

I feel better now. Take it easy:)

Paul.

[kovan]

paul
actually mine is and can be proven :)
since bible is not direct
meaning god didn't write the EXACT text in the bible
it said to be inspired by god or something but its not direct word of god
and i dont think any christian would disagree on the fact that god didnt' write the EXACT words that are in the bible

so what happens?

i win :)

jk
seriously dude
i am open to any debate, discussion
but from how i see it with jdavidson and edwin, they dont have the knowledge to have a good debate
if one says something they dont like
they go and quote from the bible.. well hello but some of us dont believe in the bible so that just makes it worse..

n e ways stay calm the way you are, we need at least one calm person :)

[paulw]

In the end, nothing is provable because 'proof' is based on experience and experience could be delusional. For instance, you might be afigment of my imagination...

I am calm, just not keen on being called a liar.

We could have a good debate. I happen to believe that the Bible is a divinely inspired document, however, that does not mean I have to blindly believe each and every word. We read the Bible in the spirit of enquiry.

As a rational being with my own thoughts and ideas, I am a little suspicious of ad nauseam quotations, from any source, used to 'prove' things.

Anyway, be happy:)

P.

[kovan]

we share something in common
i believe SOME of the bible is true
...

yet i believe some of its corrupt
so if i find something tiny winny wrong with such thing
i just reject it all togather cus if some of its corrupt it woudn't make sense to follow in parts but not whole
so there for some of the bible is true, but not all
and since ME, I, dont feel its complete
i will not follow any of it

being called a lair is put down of your ego hehe
not just you, me and everyone else

i dont like being called a lair either dont worry hehe

but ya i am always up for a good DEBATE

i am very happy indeed :)
actually let me think about that,, ya i am happy
hehe

[jdavison]

From the list of reasons of proof of Muhammad being a prophet on that sit, not one unless I missed something can prove he was a prophet of God, and as far as the writing of the book one, that is completely based on opinion. Sounds almost like Idol worship to some degree. Is there something I am missing. I am really trying tounderstand this but this sound like the mormons to me.

[jdavison]

Who called you a liar?

[kovan]

they make perfect sense to me...
.

how is it sounding like idol worshipers?

dont read peoples opinions..
go and read the Qur'an if your so interested in islam

that was just a site i gave you so you would gain some knowledge about islam
dont seem you got any
still blind as you were before..

[kovan]

if your talkinga bout me,
no one on here, i was just generilizing
but from the looks of it either you or edwin called paul a liar..

at least thats what i gathered

[jdavison]

That is a lie. I have never quoted the bible for this discussion as proof. GO back and look. As far as me not knowing enough thats a crock. I wasn't insulted until now .

[kovan]

i got called a liar too

paulw we really have things in common now


seriously jdavidson
you dont know squat about islam
and you pretend you know, i told you a trillion times if you want to know REAL islam
you read the Qur'an


and as far as you being insulted
hmm like i care
cus i am being truthfull that you dont know squat about islam

[jdavison]

You said I used scripture about the validity in the bible. That is not the case and you know it. What I know about islam is what I have read from the site you told me to learn about it. I am being truthful about what I am seeing. Its very easy to say all the other scripture are corrupted but amazing enough muhammads book isn't. The whole foundation of what you are believing is founded off those original scripture since they were the beginning of the faith, but now they are all corrupted so how can you accept Muhammad as a true prophet of God when you have no basis to validate what he had to write and say with Gods word of the past. If they are then everything muhammad wrote has no validation or if there is a conflict you can now say thats corrupted. Thats too convienent. No where does my bible do that and if I found that the book of muhammad stays with the scripture then great, I'll look at considering him a prophet of god, but to go and say theyare corrupted with no real proof other than muhammad says so is really paphetic. I'm willing to bet there are plenty of conflict between the original scriptures and those of muhamad. What I would like to know is how did the muslims get the so called book of jesus if he was never outside of the now country of isreal(the jewish nation) but the jews to who he was preaching never got this book. You say the trinity does't make any sense. Neither does that. And this isn't based off of the bible but historical records. Go and look for your self. I think you are lacking the adaquate knowledge to there kovan.

[paulw]

Well we really are showing off the best side of Christianity and Islam, aren't we?

I'm taking my ball home.;)

Cheers,

Paul.

[kovan]

jdavidson
ok so you only know what you read of that site
and you claim what you read of that site is to be PEOPLES opinions.
so why dont you read Qur'an (muhammad did NOT, i repeat NOT write qur'an)
then when you read the qur'an and learned what God said not what people said
then you can come back and we can have a nice well mannered debate,

and what book of jesus are you talking about?

if your talkinga bout the bible (which muslims believe in)
that was a bible from God(doesnt exist today)

paulw
you threw the towel in too soon :)

[jdavison]

so you do use the new testament. My understanding was there was a book written by jesus. and the book of muhammad was written by who if not mahammad? Doesn't that now follow the same type of scrutiny that the gospels are?

[kedaman]

Satans two definitions,

either you can choose your own, the image that every single religion have of him, if they have, the bad-guy personification, or you can choose a simple concept:
The dark side of free will. And the sides are of course the course the classical evil and good.

With this definition devil could exists independently of any god, but instead depend on if you define your will as free.

Now i hope you don't mix these two definitions!

[kedaman]

On a side note god does not imply the existance of devil either, since god could have created a load of machines instead, but whats the *****ing point in that?

[kovan]

no i dont use the new testiment
old, new,
the ONLY thing we use is Qur'an and the examples of muhammad
Qur'an being the absolute
can you please go read about islam instead of making assumptions


keda.. what?
my head hurts to think of any other devil other than some guy in finland.. hmmm
hehe

[kedaman]

Hehe kovan, that wasn't any surprise, i'm the finnish devil!
Think that there are so many devils that aren't connected to religion either, so *** are we talking about?=!

[jdavison]

Well, if i had a quran at every local book store i would get one at the moment but I cant because there arent many in the US. What I saw on the site was the injeel, the gospel of jesus. where did this come from? who wrote it? and quit telling me to go read the quran. That is going to take forever. And the quran is not what god said. I have tried to avoid this the whole time here with you but you insist on making it a matter of you are completely factual in your faith and that is a lie. If you want to say the bible is what people say then thats fine but the quran is just as much what people say. This is what is really angering is a total disrespect of everything outside your little world.(am I sounding like genx now;)) I have asked you questions about the quran and you keep telling me to go read it. Its going to take a long time to read that book. The torah alone will take a month at least. Is there a reason you don't want to explain this? How can you prove that muhammad was a prophet of god if you have no uncurrupted scripture to compare with? You can't, you strictly have to go by what he said now which is what most cults do. Just like the mormins ignored what is written in their scriptures to accept the return of christ in america. I accept Jesus as God because I can reference him in the scriptures of the past. They tell of his coming and all the tests to show him to be who he is. he has passed these. Maybe muhammad was a prophet, maybe not, I don't know for sure until i read it. But you are being very close minded and arrogant by stating that Your book is the word of god.


then when you read the qur'an and learned what God said


All I have tried to do is come to an understanding of what you believe and why. From what you have showed me so far is that it is a farce. A lie. Everytime I say anything about a christian belief you call it a lie all essence, I listen to what you say and ask questions and comment, you say go read the quran. I server The true living God, I know this for a fact. I can tell the stories of things he has done for me, but you wouldn't believe them if I told you and its not worth me typing them up for you. If you are so concerned with spread the word of alah and the truth, you sure are lousy at doing it. I hope the rest of your religion is not like that.

[kovan]

i told you this before
i would GLADLY answer your QUESTIONS

the only reason i said go read the qur'an is
because WE belive its not anyones opinion
and so if you read it and try to to undrestand islam from that prespective
and the Qur'an is in arabic so have fun :)

but anyways
muhammad came and said this is the book
take it, i dind't write it, read it, examine it
and then decide who its from
and thats exactly what i was trying to do with you
go read the book, examine it, question it,
ect then decide who wrote it
i have LIMITED knowledge of the quran
infact i dont know .00000000000000000001 % of it
when you get into it you will know what i mean

but to be able to question something you must know what to question first
dont you agree?

if you gonna try to prove that muhammad was not a prophet out of the BLUE then i really dont know what to say to you
you have to have FACTS on why you think so
and when you bring those facts to me
i would GLADLY try my best to help you out

remember your first email that you sent me?
you asked me if you could as me questions..
and i said i would gladly answer any of your questions to best of my ability

i still am wiling to do that

i just have ONE question, so i know how to approach this

Are you willing to learn about islam for knowledge base
or are you trying to prove islam wrong?
reason why i ask is so that i know how to help you with your questions

[kovan]

and from reading my own threads
i have gotten carried away...
now i think i am back to normal so if you like to DISCUSS islam, ask away

[jdavison]

To be honest why I am asking, I don't really know. I think its a little of both. Part curious of what it say and part want it proven wrong. I do appoligize for my outbursts, I got out of control, i was just frustrated. I will try and read the quran if I can find one and I agree that you should read and come up with your own conclusions. That what I tell people about the bible. When I emailed I was interest on finding out if there was an online bible so I could take a look and reference those scriptures you posted before but I guess there isn't an english version and to translate it for me would take years...

[kedaman]

nobodys listening? well i'm out then

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Kovan,
I'm not through with you. I just don't have time right now. And seriously, questioning my intelligence only puts a question mark beside yours.

[jdavison]

Jethro what is your problem. How have you shown me any rhetoric. You haven't shown me a damb thing yet as proof and if you did it was probably so stupid that it wasn't worth listening too. I have never avoided anyquestion that I am aware of on here and maybe you disagree with my view but to sit there and behave the way you do is wrong. no wonder nobody listens to you. I have stated what my christian perspective is that is all. you have a problem with that tough but don't say that I am telling stories. You are an immature individual. But then again you probably don't like me and you don't even know me. I have never insulted or degraded anybodies beliefs on here, atleast not intentionally. I have asked question and attempted to understand those belief of others but you make these sloppy logic statement and you have no reason to say them. You don't know jack about christianity and I expect that from a catholic. SO just shut up and go play in the coner like a good boy before you say something you regret. All I have asked for is answers and now you all think I am the antichrist himself. What a load of BS.

[jdavison]

You think you can tone it down a bit. Not be so on fire with this. This is part of the reason we get such a bad rap.

[jdavison]

Well quit making inferences, If I call somebody a liar then I flat out do it. I don't do hints.

[jdavison]

Have you even read through the bible. I mean straight through. Not a chapter her then a verse there. Most of the catholic I know including priest have never read the thing and go strictly with what is taught which is wrong half the time.

[kovan]

Edwin - There is a BIG question mark besides mine
the question attached to it is
"Is Kovan REALLY that smart?"
the answer of course is YES
if you dont believe so
we can do this the democratic way and have people vote

but seriously, i did question your intelligence, i still do
cus you just have been blinded and only look at it from ONE prespective..
blah blah no need to argue with someone who lacks intelligence



Jdavidson
hmmmmmmmmm attaching jethro is not good
Gen X will show up out of no where and defend him.. (will he?)

but your right when you say it will take you forever to read Qur'an
if you REALLY want to learn about islam
keep asking
if you dont then quit asking cus honestly i have better things to do then answer long questions that just do no one any good

about me being a arrogant ***** comment
i am the type of person who usually slams the insulter with a bigger attack... but i will let you suffer of feeling bad
haha

[jdavison]

Kovan-
I guess I am trying to understand who wrote the books at the moment. Did God himself write them? How do you validate Muhammads authenticity with out previous writings or scriptures, that are uncorupted? I guess the corrupted scriptures thing confuses me since they are pretty much the foundation that should be used to support muhammad.

I wasn't trying to actually insult you, it was the way you were behaving at the moment. Others have told me the same thing. All I want to do is try and understand. I appoligize for insulting you. Lets continue

[Edited by jdavison on 11-17-2000 at 08:23 AM]

[kovan]

since your interested in learning
lets start off with how islam started...
then you will get a better idea of exactly what islam is and how it came about

if you read ANY history (non islamic even)
you will clearly see that muhammad could not READ or WRITE
.. but lets continue with the BASICS


listen to the following
Start of Islam (http://islamicity.com/../audio/lprophet.ram)

[jdavison]

That link didn't work.

I'm still trying to figure out were I called Paul a liar. Can somebody show me were I did? If I did I don't think it was intentional.

[Edited by jdavison on 11-17-2000 at 09:33 AM]

[kovan]

you have to have real audio player to listen to it
its a sound file

i just tested it
it works fine

[jdavison]

Yep, I got the link to work but the ram file wouldn't run. I'll see if I can just download it first and try it again.

[kovan]

i have a cd of this at home
i will send a copy of the cd to you

[paulw]

Jethro,

I've reviewed what I said and I don't get it.


There are exactly two mainstream religons who believe in Satan and possession.

1. The Catholic Church.

2. I believe the Jewish faith.

I have no knowledge of islam's belief in this....kovan come on down!


What about the other Christian churches? e.g. Church of England?

That is what I meant when I said you were being a bit sloppy - it was meant as a joke, but boy, the flames are a bit hot from here.

I was trying (badly, obviously) to make the point that people were making flat statements that would accept no contradiction.

Lucky I am an exemplary Christian, otherwise I wouldn't be so forgiving...

C'mon thats a joke...

P.

P.S. You probably will burn in Hell, of course, you're an Aussie...<GRIN>

[jdavison]

I think everything is cooling down now actually. Paulw if I called you a liar anywhere, I do appologize. That was never intended. I have found you comment very openminded and interestinging. I hope you can continue with us now that we have straightened out some issue that were interfering.

[tumblingdown]

Jesus! You lot all need to chill the **** out. 'cause your all gay anyway (and those of you that are gay, are all straight)!


Come on then, give it some large ;-)


td.

[kovan]

tumb what you been smoking? care to share?

[tumblingdown]

always splash the ash mate ;-)


td.

[Edwin_Drood_1870]

Kovan,
"but seriously, i did question your intelligence, i still do
cus you just have been blinded and only look at it from ONE prespective..
blah blah no need to argue with someone who lacks intelligence"

If that is true, than you are just as blinded by YOUR looking at it from one perspective.

[kovan]

i dont think i am blinded to look at anything from one prespective,
i read about other different religions
and i am ALWAYS open to learning about more different ones
and idiologyes and belief systems
but what i meant is,
if i say anything that you dont like
you go run to your corrupted bible and quote from it

like you kelped asking me is Jesus telling the truth
i said YES, but not according to bible since bible is NOT his word

but still you kelped quoting "i and father are one"
i already TOLD you i dont believe jesus said that
so if you have any other sources of info to prove this i am WILLING to hear it, but i dont want information from a corrupted text book