AJAX forum

[tr333]

k4BB (http://www.k4bb.org/) is an online forum written in php with AJAX. not as feature-packed as other forums like vbulletin, but its still a great showcase of AJAX in action.

Demo (http://demo.k4bb.org/)

[RobDog888]

tr333, did you have a question or ? about k4BB or AJAX?

[tr333]

tr333, did you have a question or ? about k4BB or AJAX?
no... i just thought it would be good for people who have never seen an AJAX website before to see what it can do.

[RobDog888]

Yes, it looks very nice a clean. I have seen some stuff on AJAX recently but never really lookied into it. So its more like a type of ASP. Guess we shall see how popular it becomes.

[tr333]

another great example of AJAX use is meebo.com (https://www.meebo.com/). meebo is an effort to bring IM to Web 2.0.
One of the interesting things done with AJAX on this site is the ability to move/resize/minimize/maximize windows just like MDI windows in a normal desktop environment. it looks more like a desktop within a browser window.


NOTE: without signing-in to the service, you can't actually see much of the AJAX in use.

[RobDog888]

But I read that there are alot of issues with the browser's Back button since there are not a seies of different pages but rather modifications of the same page. This is to be expected but sure does create a problem depending on your page. I'm sure they have some code to help with this but there should have been something created to resolve this instead of us having to code workarounds.

[mendhak]

The aim of the AJAX developers should be to remove any requirements for the back/forward buttons, by providing everything within the page itself. AJAX is a great piece of technology, but with every technology, comes some 'sacrifices'.

I don't see AJAX becoming popular for commercial software though, not secure enough, and I doubt anyone would want JavaScript to have more client-side rights than it does right now ;)

[NoteMe]

Google is using it a fair bit though.

- ØØ -

[tr333]

Google is using it a fair bit though.

- ØØ -
does GMail use AJAX? i just noticed that the back-button doesnt do anything useful when browsing the GMail site.

[mendhak]

GMail and Google Maps too.

[NoteMe]

There is actualy a "despute" between google and Fx right now. Fx has a bug with memory leaks right now with unused HTTP*** what ever they are called in JS Ajax stuff. Google say they don't have any unused objects of this type on their home page. But for some reason Fx is leaking like a river on their Ajax made pages...:)



- ØØ -

[RobDog888]

So FF isnt able to handle AJAX pages or just Googles?

[NoteMe]

Err...a memory leak doesn't make something incompatible. Fx can handle Ajax. But google and Fx doesn't agree on if Google has an error or not.



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[RobDog888]

But yet it doesnt happen on any other browser?

[conipto]

But yet it doesnt happen on any other browser?

I can feel the Fx sucks quote coming on ;)

Bill

[NoteMe]

But yet it doesnt happen on any other browser?


You don't know, since MS would never tell..;) The difference is that FX tell, an they fix. MS doesn't tell and don't fix...;) They are not even using the same standard as every other browser does..;)



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[mendhak]

It's not FX. It's FF. FX is so 2005. Stop living in the stone age ;)

[NoteMe]

It's not FX. It's FF. FX is so 2005. Stop living in the stone age ;)


Nope...neither...it is Fx or fx...you moron..:)


http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/faq.html#spell-abbreviate



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[RobDog888]

Who says MS doesnt tell or fix things. If that was true then there would be no Service Pack 2 for your copy of XP Pro would there? :D The updates that are released on Tuesdays would not be done either or they would just say "hers a fix. install it and dont worry about anything".

For 2006 its FF for all those FF'ers that arent "with it" :D

Ok back on topic.

The thing is that since AJAX (lol just thinking of the cleaning cleanser) is relativetly a new concept its going to have issues but as individule parts its dependable and stable. Now what happens when you get a browser that doesnt support JavaScript?

[RobDog888]

Question: You guys know the Quick Reply button on our forum, that is a similar method of AJAX correct? Since it doesnt reload a page and only adds the post dynamically.

[penagate]

Quick Reply on vBulletin pre 3.5 does not use AJAX, it reloads the page.

QR on 3.5 does use AJAX and it is very noticably faster.

[penagate]

The thing is that since AJAX (lol just thinking of the cleaning cleanser) is relativetly a new concept its going to have issues but as individule parts its dependable and stable. Now what happens when you get a browser that doesnt support JavaScript?

It doesn't work. :)

So if you use AJAX you need to provide a normal alternative.

[RobDog888]

Quick Reply on vBulletin pre 3.5 does not use AJAX, it reloads the page.

QR on 3.5 does use AJAX and it is very noticably faster.
Really? Because I have never seen the page reload like it does when changing pages. It just stays the same and then the new post appears.

Hmm, lets see. Testing.

[RobDog888]

It doesn't work. :)

So if you use AJAX you need to provide a normal alternative.
Sounds like too much damn work to me. If you have to write code to display your page without JS then why not just leave the AJAX stuff out and do it the more reliable way?

Test sure looks like its not reloading the page?

[penagate]

That's probably because

a) you have a fast connection
b) most of the page is the same so it does not appear as though it is being redrawn.

Me with a 512 kbs connection and BT open, it is a lot slower than an Ajax driven QR. (Side note: vBulletin's implementation is a LOT quicker than Invision's).

And yeah it is a lot of work but it does make things a lot smoother when scripting is on (and not all that many people disable scripting). Usually it is implemented as an additional feature (Like QR on forums) so you can always still do things the normal way. If you require scripting to get the site to work it does it a lot less accessible.

[NoteMe]

Sounds like too much damn work to me. If you have to write code to display your page without JS then why not just leave the AJAX stuff out and do it the more reliable way?



Everything on the web is like that, since browsers don't follow the standard. The DOM standards for JScript is not the same on different browsers either..;) Guess why.

Thats why we try to promote real standards...;)

Just as a note about Ajax. It is old technoloiges, used in a new way with a new name really. I had a talk with Visual on the train in England about it. And I we kind of agreed that this might just be one big flop. Very few pages needs this kind of functionality as bandwidth gets better each day. but some pages with lots of trafikk and lots of info like Google map and mail migh really earn on this. But then again, they are always really fast out with new technologi. They are even using SVG on some of their pages...something IE is not supporting not even IE 7.


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[RobDog888]

I didnt think to much of it being JavaScript and XML. I originally thought it was a new language which it kind of is but mostly not. Just being used Asynchronously together, like you said, in a new way.

I dont see it taking off either. Also, when Web 2.0 comes out we will have an even faster internet so all this stuff trying to save bandwidth will be obsolite.

[penagate]

Web 2.0's not going to affect how fast data is transferred over the internet ;)

It's just a buzzword applied to seemingly every major web technology since about 2002. A fad, if you like.

[RobDog888]

Then maybe I used the wrong term but they are some universities over here in souther california that have been working on a second type of improved internet format or protocol. Cant remember what it was called but I thought that was it.

[NoteMe]

Web 2.0 is more of a buzzword really. Just something O'Reilly started in the late 90's. In what was ment then it is just a word for the changes on the internet. Examples today can be:

DoubleClick was Web 1.0;
Google AdSense is Web 2.0.

Ofoto is Web 1.0;
Flickr is Web 2.0


Since Web 2.0 is a lose term they more or less define a web 2.0 page today a page that uses "new" standards like:

* CSS, semantically valid XHTML markup, and Microformats
* Unobtrusive rich application techniques (such as Ajax)
* XUL
* SVG
* Flash Remoting
* Syndication of data in RSS/Atom
* Aggregation of RSS/Atom data
* Clean and meaningful URLs
* Weblog publishing
* REST or XML Webservice APIs
* Some social networking aspects

which is both technologies and just paradigms. Also notice that IE doesn't support all of these technologies..:D..just had to say it once more..:D


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[NoteMe]

Web 2.0's not going to affect how fast data is transferred over the internet ;)

It's just a buzzword applied to seemingly every major web technology since about 2002. A fad, if you like.


Haha to you too for using the word buzzword..:D

[penagate]

Web 2.0 == Pastel colours and rounded corners.

Edit: and HUUUUGE fonts, so huge your spectacle-wearing grandma will step 10 paces back from the computer screen to make anything out.

[penagate]

Haha to you too for using the word buzzword..:D
:lol:

Maybe Rob you were thinking of "Internet 2.0".

[RobDog888]

Yup thats it PG "Internet 2.0". :D

So NoteMe your site is using "Web 2.0" with its rounded corners and stuff.

Ps, Shame on both of you, PG and NoteMe, for using that word - "buzz####" :D

[visualAd]

Google Mail uses a mixture of XMLHTTP and hidden iframes in its interface. This means that the functionality of the back and forward buttons in the browser can be kept while still benfiting from non blinking pages.

IMO, AJAX should only be used to enhance a UI while still providing the functionality for those with borwsers which do not support JS.

[RobDog888]

So then you also feel that AJAX is not really going to go anywhere.

[visualAd]

So then you also feel that AJAX is not really going to go anywhere.
I don't think that at all. :) It can be used to make powerful event driven apps which work in the browser. All I am saying is that ajax should only be used to enhance and enrich the users experience and all the core functionality should remain in the event that the Javascript is disabled.

Kindof like a fallback ;)

[tr333]

The DOM standards for JScript is not the same on different browsers either..;)
ECMAScript (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript) is the standard scripting language. JavaScript and JScript are extensions of ECMAScript.

[NoteMe]

ECMAScript (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript) is the standard scripting language. JavaScript and JScript are extensions of ECMAScript.


JavaScript and JScript came before ECMAScripts, thats why ECMAScript doesn't manage to pull them enough in the right direction..at least for now....;) Same as happend to C in the old days, just even worse. Just hope it won't happen to C# too now.


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[iPrank]

Are you sure k4bb is still using AJAX ? http://demo.k4bb.org/viewtopic.php?id=240

Also, I am unable to open meebo.com in Opera. It opens in IE/firefox. Maybe Opera9beta doesn't support AJAX/HTTPS ?

[penagate]

Don't think they meant it to have any more AJAX than vBulletin 3.5 or Invision 2.0 do anyway.

Opera has a heart attack with AJAX coding, you'll find Gmail crashes it after a while too.

[iPrank]

Hey ! The Livemark (http://sandbox.sourcelabs.com/livemarks/) link that NoteMe posted here is working fine in Opera.

They say it is written in AJAX (http://sourcelabs.com/ajb/archives/2005/06/ajax_live_apps.html).
:confused:

[tr333]

Web20Generator: XHTML CSS Design Generator (http://www.web20generator.com/)

an interesting tool for creating a template for a web2.0 website.

[NoteMe]

Haha..it even looked like my web page..:D


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[visualAd]

http://news.yahoo.com/ Uses Ajax, just hober over the article links.

[NoteMe]

This one is pretty feature packed..:)

http://www.blursoft.com/metaForum/

[gtilles]

On the subject of Ajax, here is a group of controls that I use that do some pretty cool stuff, check out the Snap and Callback control.
This is why I got excited about Ajax
http://www.componentart.com/webui.aspx