Do i have what it takes to learn C++/VC++?

[struntz]

Hello, I have currently been studying Visual Basic 6.0 for 1 1/2 years and i'm 15 right now, and i also only have VC++ 4.0, and the reason i wanna learn C++/VC++ is because everything is leaning towards C++, LIke Vb7.net, they said its a mixture between Vc++ and InterDev, and that makes me worry because i have been studying VB and now i think i must learn C++ so i can stay ahead, and i was wanting to know if using VC++4.0 would be a good or bad idea to try and learn C++ with it, how much differnet is VC++ 4 compaired to the newest? and is stuff changed like really big things, that if i tried to learn C++ with VC++ 4.0 with this site and online tutorials and i have an old book about VC++ 4.0 or would i be even more confused when it comes to the real thing? if you have some opions on what i should do, please post them, thanks for listening! :)



Cory

[Vlatko]

Visual Basic is not as bad as some people make it.You say everything is leaning towards C++.Yes C++ is a faster and more powerful language than VB.VB 's problem is that it is slow.But with today's processors this fact is becomeing less and less important.C++ offers much more control(if you need it).
C++ is not as easy to learn as VB.VB can be learned from online tutorials and help files but learning C++ without a good book is difficult.I would recommend using a C++ rather than a VC++ book.VC++ books don't concentrate on the basics of the language but they become complex from the beggining.

[HarryW]

If you want to learn how to make Windows apps and stuff, I'd recommend 'Beginning Visual C++ 6' By Ivor Horton, published by Wrox Press. ISBN 1-861000-88-X

If you want to learn C++ without concentrating on Windows, I'd recommend 'C++: How to Program' by Deitel & Deitel, published by Prentice Hall. ISBN 0-13-528910-6

[parksie]

I have to say this:

DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRYING TO DEVELOP FOR WINDOWS UNTIL YOU'RE DAMN GOOD AT C++ ITSELF!!!

Sorry for shouting there ;)...but loads of people try to jump straight onto learning how to make Windows apps in C++ when they hardly know any of the language.

VC++ is simply an object oriented version. In my opinion, I don't think it's necessary to completely learn C++ before you go on to VC++.

[parksie]

I think you're confused here, Megatron.

C++ is an object-oriented language.
VC++ is an IDE for developing in C++.

...and I meant learn C++ before making Windows apps with it.

Im not an expert at C++ and i can do Windows apps. Its not that hard to jump from DOS to Windows. The hard part for me was just understanding that C++ for Windows is all just API functions. Unless you learn MFC, which i didnt.

[parksie]

I don't mean you have to be an expert, but just know a few things: pointers, calling conventions, and data type sizes/ranges. You'd normally pick those up after a few weeks' experience of C++. What I meant was, don't decide to learn C++ and try doing it with a Windows app...believe me, I tried, and it didn't work.

[struntz]

Thanks for you replies, so i should learn like C++ but that means i can just read and study, and i don't have to have the compilier but i will still get a good hang of it or what? becuase like i said, i only have VC++ 4.0, so what should i do, can i go out and by a book on learning C++, like i need a good book that explains like from teh very begginingg, because i have no experience with terminology in C++, and i if i learn from a book, what should the book be? and if i don't even have a C++ compiler does it matter? like can i put what i read into use with the VC++ 4.0 compiler or won't that work? i'm sorta confused heh sorry :confused: if you can explain alittle more on what i should do about what should i learn first, becuase i never knew there was non-window based C++ apps.

[parksie]

Try sites like:

http://www.programmingtutorials.com
http://www.planetsourcecode.com
http://www.cprogramming.com

The VC++ compiler is a C++ compiler...

Non-windows based C++ programs are a lot simpler, and allow you to learn the basics without getting bogged down in Windows-specific code. They're usually run from the command prompt.

[struntz]

Thanks everyone, anyone know any good books that teach non-windows C++ or Windows based C++ for begginers? If so please post, and thanks for listening! :)

[Vlatko]

"Learn C++ in 21 Days" is a good book.Here is the online verion:
http://newdata.box.sk/bx/c/

Also "Thinking in C++" is a very good book.
I forgot the address.Look for it.I have it as a PDF file.

[struntz]

Hey thanks alot for that link, it will surely be alot of help!
and thank u everyone else for helping me!

[Cybrg641]

I have "C++ In Plain English". It is OK for beginners, but it has a good reference section included with it, which I use a lot. And it is not as expensive as a lot of other books ($20.00).

[Vlatko]

struntz i have two more books for you. Absolutely FREE!
"Thinking in C++"
http://www.codecuts.com/codecuts/pdfs/bruceeckel/TIC2Vone.pdf
http://www.codecuts.com/codecuts/pdfs/bruceeckel/TIC2Vtwo.pdf

[Edited by Vlatko on 10-18-2000 at 07:41 AM]

[MoMad]

Here is another site that contains a wide variety of subjects that you could learn without paying even a dime!!!!
http://free-ed.net

they have just about anything you ever wanted to learn whether its math, science, english, or programming

here is the link for the c++ books....

http://free-ed.net/catalog/crsemain.asp?nC=3&nD=2&nO=3

Good Luck!

[MoMad]

I also suggest that to really understand this stuff, learn c first instead of c++ because it looks completely different. Thats what i did.

So good luck and tell me if you found free-ed help-full.

[struntz]

Thanks guys, and MoMad, the sites are great and that one side momad sent me has great stuff, everyone should check it out!
Thanks again guys! :)

Later

[MoMad]

you're welcome,
if you need any more help just ask!

I know of tons of sited like those two... tons more... nearly any subject too,...

so yeah... good luck with c/c++!!

[[Digital-X-Treme]]

I agree totally with Parksie. Learn C++ first before trying to go onto Visaul C++. I got the Sams TYS Book for C++ and i read through it briefly up to about chapter 10. I then got a book on Visual C++, tried to learn it, realised i needed to go back and read up on C++ first. If u do things this way it is easier. Trust me.

Laterz

[MPrestonf12]

So is there a seperate compiler for VC++ and C++? Can i use Microsoft VC++ to learn C++?

[parksie]

No..............

I think people are getting really confused over this VC++/C++ business:

Visual C++ is a development environment, not a language, and not a compiler. It comes with a C++ compiler.

C++ is a language, which Visual C++ has a compiler to compile.

Therefore, you can learn C++ with Visual C++.

[MPrestonf12]

ok. thats what i originally thought I guess after reading this thread I got confused. Thanks for clearing that up

[MoMad]

I know what the difference between c and c++ are, like parksie said, vc++ is a development environment like borland c++... its just another c++ editor/compiler....

c in the other hand is the original c++ and it is harder... thts why people get so confused with pointers and reffernces in c and just give up on them... but c++ introduces keyword: new to make it a bit easier... and plus c++ has lots of quiker programming concepts and vector programming.. etc... but i really dont understand why c++ uses cin and cout when printf and scanf worked just fine... wait... never mind... i got it all figured out...

c++ just wants to be completely new and cin and cout get rid of all of the formatting and all of the 'glitches' of c... but i still preffer c over c++.

what do u ppl think?

I would deffinetly like some input regarding, if i should further study c or evolve onto c++?

Thanx.

[HarryW]

Well.... C++ was designed specifically to be an object-oriented language. That's the main difference between C and C++. You don't get classes in C, although you can make a pretty good job of simulating them with structs and function pointers. There are some things that are harder though, like encapsulation. In C++ you can have private and protected class members, whereas in standard C I think you're limited to public variables. I think you can still achieve things like polymorphism with virtual functions, but I'm not really sure. I haven't done much object-oriented programming.

[MoMad]

oh, thanx for letting me know the difference. :thumbsup:

[wey97]

Hey struntz, don't be intimidated by C++, it is a great language. If you understand concepts in VB, it won't be very hard to extend that to C++. For instance, while loops, for loops, if statements, etc., are based on the same concepts. C++ is actually better because it trims down unnecessary fat of VB. For instance:

VB if statement:

If Condition = True Then
'Do whatever
End If

C++ if statement:

If (Condition = True){//Do whatever}

I began in Ada95, quit for 2 years, forgot Ada, and began VB and C++ at roughly the same time. I learned VB on my own and began learning C++ at http://www.about.com
There are some good tutorials there. I was up to an advanced level in a month or 2 to step into a class for a degree in Computer Science at my University.
You shouldn't have any problems, especially with the (mostly) nice folks here to help.
I won't argue on whether or not you have to learn C++ before VC++, but I wouldn't let anybody here tell me what to do. You can decide on your own. I haven't started VC++ yet, but I can guess it will be much easier learning the basic concepts in C++.

[parksie]

(mostly) nice

Nice? Us? Naaaaaaaaah...


You can decide on your own.

Yes, but you have to look at the available evidence which is:

It's a lot easier to learn C++ first, then move onto more complicated usages.

[wey97]

:rolleyes:Parksie, if you will read my entire response, that is indeed what I suggested.

[parksie]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
*sigh*
Yes, I read it, but it didn't seem to clarify the important points enough.

(not being nasty or anything, but just trying to help others...)

[wey97]

:rolleyes:

Look, parksie, no one on here is a god of VC++ or C++ by any stretch, so to forbid anyone learning VC++ before C++ is just your opinion. You sound like a damned professor or something!

As I have said before, it is helpful to have basic knowledge of C++ before diving into developing Windows apps, but it is not always necessary. That is like saying that you have to know Basic before VB! That is absurd. It's a stretch to compare VB to VC++, but my point still stands. Anywhere anybody starts is fine with me. When they come back complaining because it is too hard, then we can all say "I TOLD YOU SO!"

Another fact: Basic C++ and its DOS environment is so damned boring. The Windows environment makes for much more interest. As I said, I began in Ada and hated it because it was 2-dimension and Black and White. After I started VB, I began to have fun at programming! I do have some fun with C++, but I am anxious to learn VC++.

To discourage someone from doing something that may be extremely interesting to them may turn them away from programming forever. I see you as the hardcore programmer who enjoys seeing little white letters all day and forbids your underlings to learn VC++, because they must do as you did things - the old fashioned way. The way you and universities do things may or may not be the best thing for everyone. As a matter of fact it has turned many capable people away from programming.

So struntz, do whatever the hell you want to! parksie is just a GURU WANNABE that has to give his opinion on everything. If you get frustrated with VC++ because you don't have enough core knowledge of C++, then you will know what to do. More than likely, though, you will have enough interest in Windows apps to stick with it rather than just quit, like many programmers do because they do not see a future in DOS based programming.

(I am not trying to upset anyone here, just get my opinion straight and help struntz stay interested in programming.)

:rolleyes:

[MoMad]

C++ is easier than c.
I just tried a couple c++ stuff and its so easy. It could be that I learned c first but ill say c++ looks easier... but as in any programming language, the algorythms are the same. Thats why if u learn vb or c or pascal or whatever programming language u learn first, u'll use those algorythms that u learned in the next programming language u learn. all u have to learn is the *syntax*. And u can do so by getting a *quick refference*

here are some collected c++ notes:

1. scope resolution
::

2. member selection, subscripting,
. ->

function calls, postfix increment
()

and decrement
++ --

3. sizeof, prefix increment and decrement,
++ --

complement, and, not, unary minus and plus,
^ !

address of and dereference, new, new[], delete,
- +

delete[], casting, sizeof(),
& *


()

4. member selection for pointer
.* ->*

5. multiply, divide, modulo
* / %

6. add, subtract
+ -

7. shift
<< >>

8. inequality relational
< <= > >=

9. equality, inequality
== !=

10. bitwise AND
&

11. bitwise exclusive OR
^

12. bitwise OR
|

13. logical AND
&&

14. logical OR
||

15. conditional
?:

16. assignment operators
=
*=
/=
%=
+=
-=
<<=
>>=
&=
|=
^=

17. throw operator
throw

18. comma
,

c++ keywords:

auto
break
case
catch
char
class
const
continue
default
delete
do
double
else
enum
extern
float
for
friend
goto
if
int
long
mutable
new
operator
private
protected
public
register
return
short
signed
sizeof
static
struct
switch
template
this
throw
typedef
union
unsigned
virtual
void
volatile
while

[MoMad]

u can find these at:
http://www.itknowledge.com/reference/archive/0672310708/ewtoc.html

what the hell are you talking about?
parksie rules in C++,
I would call him a guru,
so don't go putting him down, and saying he is a guru wannabee...

:rolleyes:

[HarryW]

*Chuckle* I think you have the wrong idea of what Parksie's like...;)


Anyway, it seems there is still confusion between C++ and VC++ and Wondows programming. VC++ is just a development environment! It is just an application that Microsoft has made and sold to the masses to make writing C++ code easier. You can write Windows apps in it, yes, but you can write Windows apps in Notepad if you want to. VC++ is NOT an object oriented version of C++ - C++ was DESIGNED TO BE object oriented.

I think you should make sure you understand what you're talking about before you 'get your opinion straight'. Oh and of course, I'm not trying to upset anyone here :rolleyes:

[wey97]

It seems I have offended the GOD parksie and his loyal followers. I will surrender since I am tired of fighting about this and confusing struntz even more than he already is.

struntz, I am sorry that an attempt to help you has decayed into this terrible mess that it has. It seems that those with 10 times the posts of you and I think that they are all knowing GODS of C++. How dare us mere mortals?
parksie said:

I have to say this:

DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRYING TO DEVELOP FOR WINDOWS UNTIL YOU'RE DAMN GOOD AT C++ ITSELF!!!

Sorry for shouting there ...but loads of people try to jump straight onto learning how to make Windows apps in C++ when they hardly know any of the language.


For the last time, I agree, it would be difficult to jump straight into Windows apps without knowing C++, but there is nothing wrong with experimenting. To develop Windows apps, you have to know basic C++ anyway, so what are we fighting about? What is wrong with learning C++ and at the same time using VC++ to develop more complex apps? NOTHING. Many people do it, but some may fail and come crying to parksie and annoy him. So why do you participate in this chat so much if you are sick of hearing from these people?

Harry:
I DO know that VC++ is just an environment for C++. I have used it before! Let me make a distinction here that I assumed everyone was clear on: By standard C++ apps I mean the ones that run in DOS. By Windows apps, I am referring to a GUI. A Windows program with command buttons, pictures, toolbars, etc. I thought we were clear on that. I am experienced in C++, but not VC++ as I have said. However, that does not mean that anyone can tell either struntz or myself that we HAVE to be a bad ass MF'er in C++ before we can develop Windows apps!

Oh, and struntz, never pay attention to anyone who claims to know more than you do.

[HarryW]

What an interesting piece of advice 'never pay any attention to anyone who claims to know more than you do'. 'Interesting' is the nicest word I have for it.


Yes, we were clear on what a Windows app is. A Windows app is a Windows app, it's an application designed for Windows. There really can't be any confusion about that. My main bone of contention was that you are saying 'learn VC++'. That's like saying 'learn WordPerfect' instead of 'learn English'.

What's your problem anyway? You seem to have got yourself all worked up about the very idea that someone is giving out advice when they're asked. Good advice at that, and free too.

[struntz]

everyones advice was helpful to me, no need to get worked up, I am currently studying C++ now, because i would like to get the basic concept of C++ before i get into VC++, becuase i like to get a base before learning everything new and i noticed like someone posted, the VC++ books expects you to know most of it and doesn't explain much so i am reading "Thinking in C++" finally after 100 pages of concepts i get to start coding :D

Keep it cool

[wey97]

Harry:
Here again, you have confused what I am trying to say. I know that C++ is the core of VC++, but I am referring to learning to USE VC++. All I am saying is there is no harm in learning C++ and learning to USE the more advanced features of VC++ at the same time. For example, professors start you off learning the concept of pointers, but you never really get to see a useful application of them until sometime later. All I am saying is that exposure to more advanced features of VC++ may create more interest for our friend Cory.

I regret that I have gotten so angry in the posts, but parksie seemed to be the first one to get worked up, saying "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRYING...UNTIL YOU'RE DAMN GOOD AT C++ ITSELF!!!" so I don't agree with you that this was good or necessarily appropriate advice. My original attempts were to get Cory started in the right direction (I also recommended a place to get started in C++). I am sorry to Cory that I got so angry and posted my thoughts making my intentions even less clear.

[Vlatko]

Well, C++ can be learned using VC++ from the begining but it can be realy hard. I read a C book first and then started using VC++. It was a bit hard at the begining but i am getting used to it now.

[parksie]

wey97 - I wasn't getting worked up, just trying to emphasise the point. It was only because I have seen so many posts where people get confused due to trying to move too quickly.


parksie is just a GURU WANNABE that has to give his opinion on everything

You really don't want to get into an argument, and neither do I. We're all trying to help here...so I think things need to calm down right now.

Oh, and I don't get annoyed if people fail and come running to me. I'm here to help, as are most of the people, and I always try and help. However, that single piece of advice is the one thing that is constant, and it's not only me that says it!

PS: thanks for your support, dennis!

I was a little ticked off last post, but I agree with parksie,

I tried learning how to make windows apps with C++ when I started...
but then I was like "screw this, it's too hard"
so i gave up for a while, until I learned more C++ from my computer class,
now it's simple! :) making a windows app, that is...