Gen - X

[kovan]

hey dude, something i just thought about

few questions:
do you believe in the existence of God at ALL?
if no, would you be kind to state your reasoning on what make you derive at the decision?

and if yes at all, still state your reasoning

ya dont have to
just wonderin

[HarryW]

Everybody stand back and brace yourselves for a torrent of capital letters :D

Originally posted by HarryW
Everybody stand back and brace yourselves for a torrent of capital letters :D


HahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHaha haha...lol!

Sorry, I had to get that out :rolleyes:.

[Gen-X]

Harry

Now you are making me paranoid!!! :eek:

I look at my Caps Lock key and quiver in fear now that you have brought it up ;)

Kovan

To answer your question I don't believe there is a sentient, omniscient, omnipotent "being" (is quotes Ok Harry :p ) that created the universe.

My reasoning is simple though I have accumulated a lot of additional evidence (well its evidence to me) to support it.

All sentient beings either leave a trail or have their presence known, all forms of life leave "tracers" to their existance. The universe moves based on a set of laws that do not change and yet beings go against or around those laws in order to survive (ie we can walk, move, CHOOSE (oops... I did it!!! :( ) where they want to go... that is one of the tenants of being sentient.

God however is never seen, nor moves, nor makes the universe do anything other than what it was always meant to do. There are no indications of his existance other than that which man has presented while already believing (and possibly writing himself), and in all of our known history there hasn't been a single event that has defied the universe as would be expected of a sentient being... especially if it is supposedly everywhere at once.

To back this up I understand that human beings need an explaination and that when they see things they cannot explain they put it down to a God (and rightly so as to them it appears as if a sentient being has (is bold ok Harry :p ) actually caused movement), we however are more enlightened than they were and we understand everything they put down to a God from Earthquakes to floods to meteors is actually just the universe in its normal function. Why then would be perpetuate this belief when we have found its solution?

To add to it further and on a philosophical note rather than a scientific one, any creator that would make an entire universe for but a ignorant species on a backwater planet and then make it such that at least half the population of that planet never even know their existance while demanding they accept him in order to reach heaven just doesn't fit... regardless of whether logic should apply or not. "apparently" there is enough logic to let us know Good=Heaven, Bad=Hell but we are not supposed to know the logic of why half the population go to hell simply for not knowing? Again it doesn't fit.

So thats it in a nutshell.

Oh and Harry... Damn you for bringing up the Caps... Do you know how much it is screwing my brain around to not use that damn shift key!!!! :D :D :D : D: D

[kovan]

we are not supposed to know the logic of why half the population go to hell simply for not knowing? Again it doesn't fit.
who says those that dont know will go to hell?

[Gen-X]

Most religions that I know of state that if you don't believe in them (which funny enough a person who has never heard of them is hardly likely to believe in them) you don't get to the "promised land".

I am sure there are a few religion that act like a Traveller's Inn... willing to take in the stragglers :)

[kedaman]

SO YOU MEAN RELIGION IS RELEVANT TO THE ISSUE THAT GOD EXISTS OR NOT`???

[Iain17]

Heaven = Hell ?

As Gen-X stated, most religions state that if you do not believe in their god, then you will not go to heaven, and you will in fact be damned to hell.

So logically speaking, either everyone goes to hell, or your heaven is another mans hell. :p

[kedaman]

Theoretically that's impossible to have all people go to each others hell and get to their own heavens :confused:
Well that's not the point, anyway thanks for the idea Iain

[Gen-X]

It is relevant when you consider that if God does NOT exist then ALL religions are automatically incorrect.

If God DOES exist and he isn't some amorphous blob that has a thousand heads, one for each "culture" then it means ALL but ONE are automatically incorrect.

So when you consider that either ALL or ALL but ONE religion is correct regardless whether God exists or does NOT exist for 99.9999% of possible outcomes... it has to make you wonder at the validity of religion altogether.

[kedaman]

If God DOES exist and he isn't some amorphous blob that has a thousand heads, one for each "culture" then it means ALL but ONE are automatically incorrect.

I'm so so glad that you finally showed what the problem with your view is :) YOU ACTUALLY STATE ONE RELIGION MUST BE CORRECT, THAT THERE IS A TRUE RELIGION (IF GOD EXIST)

THEN YOU DRAW THE CONCLUSION GOD IS UNLIKELY JUST BECAUSE NONE OF THE MOST COMMON RELIGIONS ARE CABABLE OF BEING FLAWLESS.

What a mess these hundreds of threads have been just because of that! Why can't you consider what you think cannot effect the outcome of what has already happened, that a true religion actually must exist to cause the fact of there being a god. NONSENSE! BULLCRAP!

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

Without being rude could you please read what I wrote again.


If God DOES exist and he isn't some amorphous blob that has a thousand heads, one for each "culture"


This shows that there is also a remote possiblity that more than one could be correct.

I wish you would read what I write... I truely do :(

[kedaman]

Not the BIG POINT about it at all Gen-X! The point was that you assumed AT LEAST ONE HAS to be ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, if there exist a god.

I'm truly sorry but that's meaningless that too.

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

I assumed no such thing. Go read it again.

I simply said that because most religions state they are the only true religion then it would imply the rest are wrong... and that was only in the specific case IF this happened to be true.

You really do have a warped view of everything I say...

If you are going to keep twisting what I say like that, and fail to even read what I wrote then please don't bother replying...

Heh.. normally I don't get into these type of conversations because it's not very productive to do so. But in this case I feel I need to clarify a statement I made in another post.

I stated that I believed God but hated religions. I can now see where some may take it as meaning that I hate all religions and am athiest or that I beleive in a God without being in a congragation or group. So, to clarify myself, I thought I would add to this discussion just in case this started because of me (talking to Kedaman on this last point).

As a bible reader, with a quest for True Knowledge, I have found that each person persepts life differently then others. That's not a fault in itself. But, the greed of man in general has shown that even some religions will get involved into politics when they shouldn't. Jesus said in John 17:16 "They are no part of the wold, just as I am no part of the world." (New World Translation) "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (King James)

Jesus was explaining that he does and would NOT get into the political affairs of the manmade governments. He always talking about a Heavenly government where he would be King at his Fathers right hand. (NOTE : Read the whole chapter of John 17 to read if for yourself. NEVER take the word of another man when it comes to the bible. ALWAYS find out the info for yourself. That includes me.)

Ok, so Jesus is no part of the world. Hence, those religions today that get into the political (EXAMPLE - WAR) affairs of the government are False and God does not "recognize" them. So, what about those "religions" that do not get involved. Well there is ONLY 1. And it's NOT a religion. It's a WAY of life. Some call it a religion only for those who don't know them so that they may have something as reference. In essense, the bible is meant to be read every day. It's meant to answer our problems when we are faced with them. I myself love this expression - BIBLE = Basic Instructions Before Living Eternally. Heh.. I know some of you go.. WOW.. That's neat.. but in actuallity, it's more true then you can imagine.. BUT AGAIN, I REPEAT! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.. GO.. read it for yourself.. find out that there is a REASON why the bible actually exists.. I mean, hey, Jesus hated those who made that TEMPLE he was in, a place to make MONEY.. and look at what we have on TV nowdays.. TV Evangulests.. (Sorry can't spell) All TVEs want is MONEY. they are CONSTANTLY asking for it.

So, my statement about hateing religion is accurate. I hate false religion. And in the bible at it says that the "world is laying in the power of the whicked one.." 1John 5:19. In otherwords, Satan, who is the god of this world, he is ruining it. (NOTE : Read Revelation 12:9)

Ok, so I hope you all understand, I beleive in GOD, but hate what is bad. And the bible calls it, "The world Empire of False Religion". So.. what is the correct "religion" or way of thinking? Who should we be getting answers from? Where do we go from here? If religion is bad, NOW WHAT? The ANSWERS are all in the bible. ;)

Knight Vision

P.S. If you have a difference of opinion, your entitled to it, but I will NOT be duped into a religious debate with you. You must find your own way, and you must make your own decisions, NO ONE can make your decision for you. I will not answer replies that deliberatly attack. Also, it would help that if you do have a sensable reply, that you quote where you get your info from, cuzz I won't bother with you if your going by hearsay...

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

I just have a few questions to ask you.

Have you ever read the Qu'ran? The Bhuddist texts? The Greek Theology? Egyptian Doctrine? Celtic Religious texts? Anything "religious" OTHER than the Bible?

If you answered No to all of them then how on earth do you know that Christianity is the (To quote you "Well there is ONLY 1") One True Religion (or way of life)? if you have never bothered to take the time to read anything else?

This proves that you are not a seeker of truth... but simply someone who has read what is cultural for you to read and believed in it without question.

You yourself said not to trust what someone tells you and to find out for yourself... yet you refuse to find out for yourself what else is out there in order to determine if what you already believe is true.

Isn't that a tad hypocritical?

In the Catholic church you must be baptised to have any chance of gaining heaven. Now clearly if you are a Muslim (example only) you are not likely to be baptised into the Catholic church. This would seem to be an exceedingly stupid world viewpoint, and is held up by any number of religons/churches.

Does God exist;

If he/she/it does then he/she/it would probably be highly critical of organised religons, who have started any number of genocides/wars etc etc over minor differences of opinion.

[kedaman]

GEN-X on a side note, KV's not like on anyones side not on the "christians" side, neither am I, i'll reply to you soon, i have stuff to do, it's late (4:30Am) and i have school tomorrow.

[kedaman]

BTW, i hate classifying into religions, i never did that before i got into these philosophical issues. THEY TELL YOU NOTHING ABOUT A MANS BELIEF.

What's todays lesson, reindeer farming or what.....lol....there was just no point to that statement. Think l might enter it into our tip of the day.

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

I think they tell you a "bit" about a man's beliefs because if they consider themselves a member of that religion then they obviously agree with enough of it to consider themselves one.

What it does though is tell you more about their personality than their beliefs... If they follow something someone else has written with 100% faith then it shows them to be people who rarely challenge or question things... And that they will accept something they are told because it is culturally relevant to them rather than go looking for others to find out the "right one".

KV is a perfect example of someone who tells people to "search for your own answers" and then hasn't moved very far to look at what the world has to offer for himself. Its that kind of single-minded view that makes my skin crawl... because they really don't mean "search for your own answers" but truely mean "lets see if I can trick you into reading the Bible yourself... because I was taught that getting people to read it is halfway to winning them over".

He can deny it but while his actions and his words are 2 different things nobody could that that seriously. Whats good for the good is good for the gander... if he read the Bible often enough he should have known that.

Again Gen-X, you failed to see the point. I stated that I was CLARIFYING my statement. Nothing more. And it was to those who could have misunderstood my statement, I felt I needed to clarify myself. AGAIN you are trying ot bate me into something that is WAY off topic of my message. Why don't YOU learn to read just as you are telling Kedaman.. Your too much of a debate man to input any REAL MEAT to the conversation. So please, back off, unless you have something meaningful to say.. And please, be positive about it. Don't be an attacker because that shows your limmited knowledge. The wise man is the one who listens (In this case - reads.. LOL).


I do understand that you have your own beleif, and I will NOT take you away from that. I hope the best for you.

Knight

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

I understand perfectly why you posted.

I simply wanted to ask you some questions that was all.. nothing more... no debate, no attack..

You just said yourself that a wise man is one who listens... I was hoping you would answer the question so I could listen :(

But if you want to keep on using the same old measuring stick to measure me by when you will notice that I have tried to be good lately please go ahead.

If you are unable to explain why we should go seek answers for ourselves but you have only read the bible and decided it is the right answer right off the bat then thats your choice.

My questions were asked simply to be able to assess the kind of person they were coming from so that I don't make the mistake of using a specific yard stick where it doesn't belong.

Gen-X, yes, I do know about Buddhism. In fact, have you read the book "Living Buddhism" ? Interesting read... Anyways the point is this... I have been in a LOT of religions. And so far, to ME, the bible makes the most sense. I cannot speak for anyone else, hence the REASON WHY I say for them to find their own answers. So, for you to attack me is useless, and very unproductive. And you DON'T know me to make your blatent statements...

Knight

BTW - You obviously are online at the same time as me.. ICQ me.. 38095036

Knight

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

Firstly... I am not attacking you. If you see it that way then I suggest you look at why you perceive it as an attack.

It has been my assessment that people only ever consider themselves "attacked" when they are being highly subjective and when they see something personally emotional as the target.

Another question. Where were you born and what religion were your parents?


Unfortunately I cannot use ICQ at work... firewall is too protective.. but you get that working for a defense contractor.

[Sophtware]

Religion = great tool for good/bad wishes.

But it's so sad that such a good thing as "religion" and all of it's infinte wisdom is used mostly by evil people.

Me personally , i dont want too get envloved in a religion that says i am a good person too them..as long as i am forking over the coins in the collection jar, plus i will not be envolved in any kind of religion when, they look at an outsider in another religion and consider them to be "sinful"Because that person does not worship the same.

What ever happend too "live and let live"?


Plain and simple..if you want too start the worst war or argument...just bring up "religion" if you dont think so...just look at how HUGE the posts that relate too religion are.

[Gen-X]

Sophtware


But it's so sad that such a good thing as "religion" and all of it's infinte wisdom is used mostly by evil people.


Thats an interesting statement.

But think on this... Can you use a bit fluffy rubber ball in an evil way? While I am sure some deviates will come up with a couple in principle you can't.

So why do evil people use religion unless religion itself is either a knife or a gun.

It certainly isn't a big fluffy rubber ball ;)

Ok, Obviously your going to play coy with me... Here is WHY I say your attacking me.

First you say this...


I just have a few questions to ask you.


Then you ask the questions...


Have you ever read the Qu'ran? The Bhuddist texts? The Greek Theology? Egyptian Doctrine? Celtic Religious texts? anything "religious" OTHER than the Bible?


But before I even had a chance to answer / express myself you say this..


If you answered No to all of them then how on earth do you know that Christianity is the (To quote you "Well there is ONLY 1") One True Religion (or way of life)? if you have never bothered to take the time to read anything else?


You never gave the alternative to "what if I say YES"... I could have dealt with the above.. but this next paragraph is the actual attack.


This proves that you are not a seeker of truth... but simply someone who has read what is cultural for you to read and believed in it without question.


That statement alone is the attack. HOW do you know I'm not a "Seeker of Truth" ? You don't know me? You don't know what CULTURE I have been exposed too. Then like and IDIOT you say this....


You yourself said not to trust what someone tells you and to find out for yourself... yet you refuse to find out for yourself what else is out there in order to determine if what you already believe is true.


From this last statement you said I REFUSE to find out what else is out there? Where in the world did I say this? Your putting words into my statements and reading things that are not true. In essence you have attacked my character. And for no reason.. Like I have said, you DON'T KNOW me. So who are you to pass JUDGEMENTS on another person?

You said "Isn't that a tad hypocritical?" at the end of your statement. Sounds to me that YOUR the Hypocrite here. You need to quit attacking what you don't know.

Here is another quote from you...


I understand perfectly why you posted. I simply wanted to ask you some questions that was all.. nothing more... no debate, no attack.. You just said yourself that a wise man is one who listens... I was hoping you would answer the question so I could listen.


If you REALLY wanted to know the ANSWER you wouldn't have made up your mind immediately AFTER the question. Your smooth. Not very bright, but your a smooth.

I love how you say that I MEASURE you with the same OLD measuring stick. But you never explain what you meant by that. What measurement are we talking about here? Are you assuming that I am doing something else? Case in point.


KV is a perfect example of someone who tells people to "search for your own answers" and then hasn't moved very far to look at what the world has to offer for himself. Its that kind of single-minded view that makes my skin crawl... because they really don't mean "search for your own answers" but truely mean "lets see if I can trick you into reading the Bible yourself... because I was taught that getting people to read it is halfway to winning them over".


Interesting that you say, I am trying to TRICK people into reading the bible. What, in my paragraph is there anything deceptive? Like I meantioned, I was trying to set straight a statement I made, and SOOO that statement was meant toward those who beleive in the bible and were asking me what I beleive since I "Hated Religion". But see, you go too far, you say that I wrote this to people like you. Ones who don't beleive in the bible. Where do you get the brass to make such a statement?

This is NOT worth arguing over and I am tired of seeing these types of posts on this VB-Forum. Your a Hypocrite and the bible warns of people like you. This is the last message I write on this subject!

Knight

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

Your right.

Now that I look at it I can see how you would perceive me attacking you... I should have let you made your reply first. I have a habbit of jumping ahead of myself.

You have my appologies then.


As for me being a hypocrit I would be interested in you showing me where I have ever done something that I claim was good or right and then told someone else they were not allowed to do it?


But lastly... The reason I jumped the gun was because nobody has studied EVERY religion... nobody has taken the time to go through everything that is in the world... so to say with 100% surity that the one you have (which I would like you to confirm or deny is not the one either your parents taught you or the one that is culturally specific to your area) is the right one is obvious.

Because of that I would be happy to claim you don't seek truth because any real truth seeker would say there is always doubt in something... A truth seeker would be saying "I haven't read this or that yet so I cannot be 100% sure".

Instead you are saying Christianity is the right one.

One last point... I am very, very sick of all this "You can't JUDGE me!!!". The world is full of judgement, we do it every day to everyone. You have judged me just as I have judged you... It isn't a dirty word and yet Christians throw it around like its the worst sin of all despite themselves doing it constantly.

I can judge you and I will judge you... exactly as you are doing and will continue to do to me. Its a fact of life and something to be understood and not something spat out like a venomous accusation as if the mere fact that judgement is involved makes it bad.

But thats just how I see it... You of course may get differnet mileage from it.

[kedaman]

JEthro! Digital electronics and physics actually, I just couldn't sleep tonight either (I have a bad feeling I won't be able to get to none of them)

Gen-x

I think they tell you a "bit" about a man's beliefs because if they consider themselves a member of that religion then they obviously agree with enough of it to consider themselves one.

That's bullcrap, you don't know a **** about either my, KV's or anyone elses belief, I'm Christian, yes, and i don't agree i'm considering myself to be one, so don't ever say that again.

What it does though is tell you more about their personality than their beliefs... If they follow something someone else has written with 100% faith then it shows them to be people who rarely challenge or question things... And that they will accept something they are told because it is culturally relevant to them rather than go looking for others to find out the "right one".

I have never, ever met anyone with that attitude, and i won't ever since such people with 100% faith only exists in your fantasy. I'm sure almost all people doubt their own religion at some point, even fanatics! The world isn't black and white, Gen-X it contains millions of greytones. Your way of generalizing people is really sick. Think about what you say.

KV is a perfect example of someone who tells people to "search for your own answers" and then hasn't moved very far to look at what the world has to offer for himself. Its that kind of single-minded view that makes my skin crawl... because they really don't mean "search for your own answers" but truely mean "lets see if I can trick you into reading the Bible yourself... because I was taught that getting people to read it is halfway to winning them over".

You know, here it shows again, you believe there has to be at least one a true religion. Don't deny it again man!
Furthermore you make yourself sound like you care about what other people believes in, i think that's the problem with you, you don't care a **** about what people really believes in but you use generalisation to effectively disqualify whole groups of concepts, in this case beliefs by religion.

It certainly isn't a big fluffy rubber ball

Everyone should know that, classification into religions has cost humanity more death and pain than you can imagine.

But lastly... The reason I jumped the gun was because nobody has studied EVERY religion... nobody has taken the time to go through everything that is in the world... so to say with 100% surity that the one you have (which I would like you to confirm or deny is not the one either your parents taught you or the one that is culturally specific to your area) is the right one is obvious.

Here we go again, you have only in this thread 3 times showed you want to declare a connection between God and a True Religion. I'm sure you have done this hundreds of time in the other threads but i've never noticed this was the malfunctioning part in your view.

KV


You yourself said not to trust what someone tells you and to find out for yourself... yet you refuse to find out for yourself what else is out there in order to determine if what you already believe is true.

From this last statement you said I REFUSE to find out what else is out there? Where in the world did I say this? Your putting words into my statements and reading things that are not true. In essence you have attacked my character. And for no reason.. Like I have said, you DON'T KNOW me. So who are you to pass JUDGEMENTS on another person?

Yes for one simple reason, he want to put you in that big black box, religion, and then throw it in the ocean. He wants to judge you for crimes you never commited, he wants ignorance to be a bliss for him, not others

[Arbiter]

Guys,

Chill out.

I've been liberally offering orange juice around in earlier threads, so feel free to have some if it helps.

[Sophtware]

You know exactly what i mean...and even though am sure some creative soul could come up with a evil way too use that rubber ball you are starying from my point.

Oh yeah gen...your ass is showing again.

[kovan]

offering OJ yet you complain that you will run out soon
did you get my email containing that oj package yet?

and comment on KV - did you miss the contridictions i posted ?
and GEN X (usually i dont agree with most of what he says)
brought up a VERY good point
you must read about other sources before you draw a conclusion like that

*takes a OJ from arbiters fridge, mmmmmm tropicana is good*

arbiter - I'll take some of that OJ.. LOL

Kovan

and comment on KV - did you miss the contridictions i posted ?


Contradictions? I must have missed what you said... I have no clue what yor talking about, or even refering too... :(

GEN X - I do understand what your saying when it comes to studying and finding the correct "religion". And, true, thhere are a LOT of religions out there. But it's not as impossible as you think to choose the correct beleif. Most religions stem off of other religions. Examlpe.. Babptists.. There are about 15 kinds of Baptist religions out there. All of them STEM from the main one. Moromans is another one that has 3 different kinds of mormans.. Quakers are quakers.. can't misunderstand them.. LOL How about Jews? Did you know that there are 5 different varisations of the Jewish religion? And 4 out of the 5 doesn't beleive Jesus ever came. One however does.

My point here is this.. yes, I have studied a many variety of religions. I have read all kinds of books on the subject from MANY sources. YOU ARE CORRECT in saying that you MUST search. But keep in mind, that there is a simple way of figureing out the corrrect one.

1.) Which one will show you a GOD of love? Well, you can take away 10% of religion.

2.) Which one will show you everlastiing life? That's another 16% broken off...

NOW, these are NOT accurate statements, but ONLY an example of what i'm trying to explain. There is a way to decifer which is the correct faith. But it's a Gradual thing, your not going to just figure it out within a year. Took me 24 years of searching. That's a LOT of religious studying. Did you know that Babylon was when Multiple Languages accured? Did you know that Greek Mythology is actually meantioned in the bible? Did you know that if man would have closely looked at the bible back in columbases day, they would have known the earth was round? The bible is ALSO the oldest book to have ever survived. It has 66 BOOKS bound together. Made by various writters. The Morman's book was only written by one authoer and it's author was portraying himself as their Massiah. Look that up.. :)

Anyways... My way is not meant to be YOUR way. You have to figure that out yourself. I'm not going to sit here and tell you my beleif is the corrrect one. I mean, hey, who am I ?

And that is all I am saying to you Gen-X. Don't discourage others in their search for truth. And I agree with you on the point that they really need to dig. That's what I did and my end result is where I am. Does that mean I stop learning though? NO. I am still learning.. The Knowledge NEVER stops. And I will never presume to tell you the BIBLE is the only source to look at. In fact, I encourage you to read all the bibles that comes from other religions. You might find things that you have never seen b4. :)

Well, I hope this helps you understand me a little more Gen-X and to you others. Live long and.. well you know the rest.. LOL

Knight Vision


[Edited by Knight_Vision on 10-16-2000 at 12:49 PM]

[kovan]

did you miss those posts about contridictions?

if so
go back
you will find quite few of them
and i am about to post set 4..


1.) Which one will show you a GOD of love? Well, you can take away 10% of religion.

2.) Which one will show you everlastiing life? That's another 16% broken off...

go on...
i like to see 100% made up based on your way of thinking
i wonder if my religion is going to miss any of it :)

Kovan.. I now understand what your saying.. And yes, it would seem that there are contradictions.. I too had that problem at first. But with a little studying, I found the oposite. You too will have to do the research. You'll also find different. If you truely want help on that, just ICQ me. :)

As far as the eliminating religions goes, I was only using that as an example of what I did. It's a LOT more involved then that. hehe. it is funny how you put it though.. LOL

Knight

[kovan]

"dictators" on this end wont let me us the port to load icq on :)

but it was kinda weird how you started to break it into %
and i kinda wanted to know if i was missing something in my religion..
damn you, should finish what you started hehe

i have done a lot of research
and yes i want help on that..
because i am NOT, i repeat NOT NOT posting these to trash the bible..
but based on what i have found and undrestood, i know its corrupted as the book i wrote (mind you it never made it to the best sellers list)

to make it FAIR
i would like a explaination for each of them
and so that other people that have same thinking as me
could see it as well

sank you
i still wanna see that % :)

Ok, give me a few days.. I have to write it up. I'll e-mail it to you.. I will NOT post it here.. Too many people like to critisize...

Knight

[kedaman]

Nonono, Gen-X, chickening out huh? I thought you had at least some explanation to what you're doing really?!?!?!?!

You know, if youre aint going to reply me, i'm think you don't have an answer either!



Now Gen-x, why do you keep looking at "most religions" all the time and especially christians, when were talking about god?

I keep looking at them because they are the ones that are most well known and well defined. I don't know what your belief structure is or that of other people who have a personal structure so I can't comment can I?

Look at this very closely:
1. you are looking at "a persons belief structure" to comment it. May I ask WHY??????
2. you are looking at christians, hang up at details, contradictions and accuse God for them, and doing this collecting evidence that there is no God. May I also ask, what you are trying to accomplish?
3. May I also ask you why you would think there is a connection between Christians, and a possible God?

[tumblingdown]

It always amuses me to hear people discuss religion.

Religion is a natural evolution in the stages of community, and exists as a form of control over the uncoordinated mass.
Ulitmatley, all Religions disappear, as the original reason for their existance disappears. I would specualte that all Religions as we see them today are in the last quarter of their life.

What on Earth does Religion have to do with God, apart from convenience a God brings to Religion.

andy.

I find what you said interesting. You say its easy to find the right religion and then you break away chunks based on an arbitrary system that probably came from the religion you are already in.


Gen-X, again your presuming again.. I no longer care to discuss anything with you. Your too ignorant when it comes to people and their ways. You presume they get this info from that source or this source. And you are very Vague in your presumptions on top of that. Kedaman has you pegged as well.. your too hung up on other's beleifs that you can't even see your own problems. Why do you get involved knowledge of others? They are NOT trying to change you? So why are you even here in this discussion? Your not here to learn, THAT IS OBVIOUS! If you were here to learn, you would have seen WHY people beleive in the bible.. But you can't get past that fact. Your trying to pursuade them away from it, telling them THEY are the stupid ones. WHO ARE TO JUDGE?
Your NO ONE. Get over it and get a life. Leave people alone. Am I judging you now? YES. Why? Because you keep challenging me and any my beleifs. But AGAIN you don't know a thing about me. If you would back off and leave me alone, MAYBE you would learn more about me. But nooo.. all you want to do is to TRY to prove a POINT and degrade the beleifs of others. I however do not discourage others from beliving God. Doesn't matter what religion because I talk to people of all religions. Maybe you should listen to what people are wanting more instead of degrading what little faith they may have left. Wether their faith is misplaced or not is NOT YOUR CALL! ALSO, another thing, you degrade MY way of how I solved the right religious belief for ME. Why? I didn't say that it was for EVERYONE. I said it worked for ME. So again, I REPEAT, your NOT gettting the point and you need to READ what I am saying instead of JUMPING the gun!

tumblingdown - You bring up a VERY good point as to what religion has to do with God. If you have a Bible and beleive the bible to be from God, then please, read the book of Genesis chapter 10 and 11. The answer lies within. (Particularly when it comes to the Tower of Babylon.) Pay close attention to that time period when King Nim'Rod challenged God. Find out what God did in return. That in turn will explain where all the different languages and religions around the world started from. :) If you still don't understand, e-mail me and i'll explain what It mean. Then, if you don't beleif it, then hey, no one is forcing you to belive it. Well maybe with the acception of Gen-X, he may try to force it on you.. LOL

Knight Vision

[tumblingdown]

If you have a Bible and beleive the bible to be from God


This is my point - i don't. The only thing the Bible has to do with God, is that God is the subject of the story.

/me suggests every psuedo-theologian whips off and studies
biblical and historical fact and timelines ;-)

I will however read the chapters when i get the chance.


...That in turn will explain where all the different languages and religions around the world started from.


have you by chance, read Snowcrash?

tumblingdown - Ok, see, that is why I asked. I didn't want to presume that you agree with the bible. This is why I ask questions and let you answer it. I want to know more about what you do beleive. I am curious as to who you worship, if you worship any god at all. But, please, e-mail it to me. For I know you will be critisized for your belifs in a public chat room. I am not here to persuade you from your beleifs. So please don't think I'm going to convert you. That is not my intention. I do not want, nor have the power to do so.

It is custom where I am from, to talk about the bible. I do understand religions that do not use the bible, and therefore I respect that decision. I too used to study in such ways. I'm not going to dictate wether it's wrong or right. But for ME, I have chosen that it's not my choice after looking into it. I did not make this choice purely on someone elses percecption. And that is what this whole ball of wax is about. You choose. No one else can do that for you. :)

Knight

[kedaman]

tumblingdown, what about that book, Snowcrash? What is it all about?
The only thing that religion has to do with God, is that God is the subject of the stories.

Thanks, that's exactly the statement i was looking for. :)

[kovan]

hmmm
according to my religion
God has to do with EVERYTHING from his first and last breath..

Kovan, I just want to clarify something in my mind, before you get attacked by Gen-X LOL You say GOD's first and last breath... Am I correct in thinking that you beleive in the bible and that you beleive that Jesus is God? The only reason I am asking this is to find out your beleifs..

And people should NOT attack his beleifs. A lot of people have this beleif. I however do not, but I don't want to accidently trample on Kovan's toes either. So I am asking him to know more about it.

John 1:18 is the reason I ask this question.. :)

Thanks.

Knight Vision


[Edited by Knight_Vision on 10-17-2000 at 04:28 PM]

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

I don't know why I am bothering with this... perhaps it is some whistful hope that perhaps we can breach the communication barrier we have.


1. you are looking at "a persons belief structure" to comment it. May I ask WHY??????


What a person believes in provides an insight into their character. If I said "My belief structure is that God is an Apple" you would be able to assertain something about me as a person right?


2. you are looking at christians, hang up at details, contradictions and accuse God for them, and doing this collecting evidence that there is no God. May I also ask, what you are trying to accomplish?


I am hoping that these people will understand that perhaps their beliefs are not 100% and are in fact 99%. The whole reason I do this is because it is my opinion that those people who have absolute faith (read that 100%) are ultimately BLIND... and if I can provide someone with at least 1% doubt then they no longer limit themselves and can look with TRUE eyes and not those of someone who has been trained NOT to look.


3. May I also ask you why you would think there is a connection between Christians, and a possible God?


I don't really understand this question. A Christian is someone who believes that "God" is the one as stated in the Bible. They also believe that he is the only god and that he was responsible for the creation of the universe.

So if you actually classify yourself as a "Christian" then that automatically shows that you have classified yourself under a definition of a book called the Bible which is a religion and about God.

Knight Vision

Gen-X, again your presuming again.. I no longer care to discuss anything with you. Your too ignorant when it comes to people and their ways.


Then how about instead of moaning and winging like a mewing kitten you actually start STATING what it is you DO believe instead of leaving it unexplained.

You make bold statements like "You cut away those that don't believe in everlasting life" and yet you don't provide anything to support WHY that is in fact valid.


your too hung up on other's beleifs that you can't even see your own problems


You can talk! Someone who is so absolutely and positively blinded by what they believe they are unwilling to accept for even a second the *possibility* of anything other than what they want to be the truth.


Why do you get involved knowledge of others? They are NOT trying to change you? So why are you even here in this discussion?


Read what I said to Kedaman.


Your not here to learn, THAT IS OBVIOUS! If you were here to learn, you would have seen WHY people beleive in the bible.


But I do understand WHY people believe in the Bible. I can clearly see their belief in a relgion stems from the need to be supported in areas they are not capable... That they need an explaination for things they cannot explain in order to be able to function.

That you disagree with that explaination doesn't make me wrong, nor does the fact I believe it make me right... But it certainly doesn't mean I am not here to learn and it certainly doesn't mean I don't understand. Its the difference in opinion that is the problem.

If I were to hypnotise you and tell you the number 7 didn't exist you would argue just as you are now... believing there is no number seven and that I am NOT wanting to learn because I keep saying there is.


WHO ARE TO JUDGE?


You see a woman about to step into the road infront of a car. You stop her and tell her that the car would hit her. She looks and says "I don't see a car" and keeps walking.

What are you going to do? Just let her walk into the road? Think to yourself "Well its her choice" and watch as she kills herself? Or are you going to continue telling her because you believe you can SEE a car and that for some reason she cannot?

If you don't understand this concept then you truely do not understand very much about truth and here you keep saying you seek it.


Am I judging you now? YES. Why? Because you keep challenging me and any my beleifs.


Ahhh... so its ok to judge now that you have justified it? Nice.. very nice... Good back door to have. Be all righteous and holier-than-thou and say it is bad to judge but then validate it so you can do it yourself.

What a wondeful human quality you have there... very Christianlike.


I didn't say that it was for EVERYONE. I said it worked for ME


Actually you didn't say "It was easy for ME to decide the right religion for ME", you actually said "It is easy to decide the right religion". That doesn't sound like you were talking specifically about YOU.


For I know you will be critisized for your belifs in a public chat room. I am not here to persuade you from your beleifs


I do believe you just "presumed" that this person has beliefs and is not athiest. Interesting... You keep talking about not jumping to conclusions and yet this statement very much shows you are starting to make assumptions... even about whether he will be critisized or not.

Hypocrit.


Kovan, I just want to clarify something in my mind, before you get attacked by Gen-X LOL


If you had bothered to read anything on this forum you would know extremely well that Kovan is muslim. Obviously you have an inability to read on here... considering several posts regarding the current crisis in the middle east POSTED by kovan I would have thought a "seeker of truth" would have at least browsed them and known this.


And people should NOT attack his beleifs. A lot of people have this beleif. I however do not, but I don't want to accidently trample on Kovan's toes either.


Well you did. Someone who has posted several topics about contradictions in the bible and about the crisis in the middle east and you didn't even give him enough respect to find out who he was... you just came jumping in.

Tsk, tsk... How hypocritical.

You talk one thing Knight Vision.. yet act another.. I cannot respect a person who justifies their own actions and then condemns others.

As for me... I know I make mistakes and you get appologies when I make them... You however seem to be incapable of making mistakes. Call me what you will.. I know I am abrasive and I know I come across bad... but I don't try and "pretend" like I am a perfect person... you however like to give off that impression you are ABOVE other people

The mistake most of you are making is equating Gen-Xs attacks on religon as direct attacks on the existence of God.

Organised religon, (of any creed) is an attempt to codify the existence of God in such a form as it will support the hierarchy of that religon. The spread of christianity in Britian was an attempt to stamp out the local "religons" as rallying points. Also witness it's use, (and especially the promotion of anti-Witch craft etc), to down play women's roles in society. The same l might add could be applied to the Muslem faith, especially those caring and sharing folk in Afghanistan.

The requirement to believe in a set religon in order to believe in god is misleading and deceptive. As Queen Elizabeth stated, "I do not wish to open windows into man's souls".

Therefore can we be a bit more selective here, and decide waht we are debating, organised religon or the existence of god.

Interesting that kovan got a whole thread going just to attack Gen-X, a bit put out were we with some of his comments.

[Gen-X]

What is an apostate?

[EatenByGators]

Wow, took me forever to read the posts here. ;)
you guys get into some deep stuff. Is this normal?

You all make some good points IMHO. From what I can see, KV is just trying to keep the peace.. But, that's just MHO.. :)

Hey Gen-X, how long you been studying religion? If it's none of my business, just say so, I will but out.. ;)

EBG

[Gen-X]

EBG

If I may call you EBG for short ;)

No I would never tell a person to butt out. Everyone has a right to what they want to say, if someone offends you then in my honest, humble and lowly opinion that means you are either sensitive about the topic or you know you might be wrong.....

People rarely get upset (frustrated yes but not upset) when someone wants to make comments about something you say if they believe there is truth in it.

How long have I been "studying" religion?

That is a bit of a double-negative... If I did in fact "study" religion that means I would see worth in studying it and therefor would probably believe in it. I have been both in and around religion all of my life and if you feel that constitutes "study" then the answer would be all of my life.

I sat through many a Bible-study when I was going out with someone who was religous and was always amazed at how they twisted things so that they conformed with what made them comfortable. I would always point out the glaring flaws and they just got angry because I didn't "conform".

I've been a student of human nature all of my life however... probably seen more people up close than most people do having worked in a place where several hundred people crossed my path each day and I spent my time watching how they interacted and worked.

Though I am sure some people on here would say all of that accounts for a hill of beans and that I have no right to make any comments about anything... Convenient don't you think ;)

[EatenByGators]

Gen-X
Hahaha, yes, you can call me EBG.. ;)

It's interesting how a person lives nowdays. People can be passionate about the most unigue things. From what I have observed here, you and KV actuall have somethng in common. You both probably don't beleive it though. You said yourself that you have studied human nature all your life and KV said something about Human condition. Am I wrong? Your both compassionate about how you beleive. I think that's kewl!!!!

See, who says you guys can't get along.. Hahahahaha


EBG

hmmm, maybe EatenByGators has a point. Maybe there is something I am overlooking about Gen-X. All I was trying to do was defend myself from his attacks though.

however, I will step up to the plate and call it a truce to Gen-X about this whole thing. What do you say Gen?

:: Hand extended to shake Gen's hand. ::

I apologize if I have offended you. Let's put our differences asside and move on.

Knight

[EatenByGators]

Ewww.. a hush is in the crowd... shshshs


HEY, WILL SOMEBODY SHUT THAT DAMN CRICKET UP!!!


LOL

;)

EBG

[Gen-X]

*shaking hand*

I can accept that and am sorry that my way appeared to attack you.

To be honest you haven't offended me... I'm the hardest person on the earth to offend... frustrate yes, but never offend :)

In all honesty the only reason I bother with these debates is because I don't like anything that is 100%. It means you have reached the end, there is nothing left to know or grow from and religion and those who believe in it (IMHO) tend to believe in it 100%.

I guess its my own short-sightedness to place everyone in the same boat before actually making sure they actually ARE in that boat.

You have certainly taught me that KV ;)

[kedaman]

Yep, this is really important, at least for me, we have been like "doing nothing" for ages and for the first time i think I get somewhere, and I think if you read what i'm going to post, you could learn something. I'm sorry if had to get that offensive but you know, we know each other, and I just had to get a reply from you.
Commenting belief structure

What a person believes in provides an insight into their character. If I said "My belief structure is that God is an Apple" you would be able to assertain something about me as a person right?


I am hoping that these people will understand that perhaps their beliefs are not 100% and are in fact 99%. The whole reason I do this is because it is my opinion that those people who have absolute faith (read that 100%) are ultimately BLIND... and if I can provide someone with at least 1% doubt then they no longer limit themselves and can look with TRUE eyes and not those of someone who has been trained NOT to look.

Apple... Yeah I know what you mean, You like to hear the details and correct them. You've been doing that for ages now. You know as well, I don't have those details and you should be proud if that was your goal. But that's not totally correct. You're instead a bit upset with me, trying to ignore me. And the only statement i'm usually making about God is that I believe he exist, and that I don't have any faith in any detailed views of him. This seems to make you nervous. I hope you can get over this because tumblingdown, had a good point, and that is to religion will disappear (your work eliminating the details will be a success) And only two types of people will remain, those who don't believe in that God exists, and those who believe there is. Without any details, and definition of God, as you know, the creator of universe. However I hope you take me seriously, I'm going to ask you directly, What do you really have against me? What is so uncomfortable to have me around?

BTW, I forgot to take that Orange Juice, thanks Arbiter

[Gen-X]

Kedaman


You're instead a bit upset with me, trying to ignore me


Actually I get "frustrated" with you... not upset. Ignoring you is because of the frustration and because I don't want it to end in a flame war again.

The reason I get frustrated is because your personal belief is structured in such a way that makes it compeletely impossible to quantify, existing in no place other than your head.

Do you know how frustrating it is to have someone say something, state it like it is a fact and then say it is impossible to disprove because the only proof exists in a place you cannot reach? :)


And the only statement i'm usually making about God is that I believe he exist, and that I don't have any faith in any detailed views of him.


Exactly. You make a statement and then say you have no details yet say that you are 100% right in your statement. That is what I find frustrating.

If I were to say to you.. "I am 12 feet tall" you would say "prove it, send me a picture". If I then said "I don't have any pictures" you would simply doubt I was 12 feet tall and because I was unwilling to provide evidence means you would doubt me even more. That is how I feel when you describe your belief of God... like you are saying you are 12 feet tall but won't prove it.


seems to make you nervous


Frustrated... not nervous. Exasperated.. not nervous. Nothing makes me nervous because being nervous would mean I am afraid of some kind of answer when I welcome any answer that could provide me greater insight. I just don't see your answers as providing insight because they are NOT answers but unsupported personal statements.


What do you really have against me? What is so uncomfortable to have me around?


I have nothing against you, honestly. The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other. When either of us say something the other takes it completely the wrong way (ie you thinking I am nervous or upset) and both of us end up frustrated at the others apparent innability to see what we are saying.

Sometimes I read what you say (as I am sure you do when reading what I say as well) and have absolutely no idea what you are getting at. I find some of the english stuttering (which is completely not your fault and far more than I could even manage in any other language) and I have to re-read it several times to make sure I understand what you are actually asking.

So I have nothing against you yourself... but against the situation that keeps arising time and again that when we talk to each other "something" gets crossed in the middle and we don't get anywhere.


I hope this makes sense to you... I truely and honestly do, and what I have written was said as sincerely as I can put it into text. If any of it comes across less than sincere then that is my inability to express myself in a textual reply and not as a result of intention.

[HarryW]

Now you see this is what I think it comes down to - a hunch. Just a gut feeling. When you take away the doctrine of the various religions, and you wonder about the existence of God, you just have to sort of... guess.

[kedaman]

Don't worry about a flamewar Gen-X, so don't be frustrated either,
A flamewar would just result in another useless amount of post.

The reason I get frustrated is because your personal belief is structured in such a way that makes it compeletely impossible to quantify, existing in no place other than your head.

And probably tons of other peoples heads too, maybe the majority? Gen-X, If you get frustrated about that somone believes there is a God, then you have a big problem, because there always will be.
I'm not sure what you meant by "compeletely impossible to quantify" So however i'm not sure what you really meant, isn't it nice that I tell you this and ask for an explanation instead of flaming on?

Do you know how frustrating it is to have someone say something, state it like it is a fact and then say it is impossible to disprove because the only proof exists in a place you cannot reach?

Now i have never stated God's existance as a fact. I hope that removed some of your frustration. BTW, that's contradicting to say something is a fact and can't be prooved.
My statement, sorry to make it sound like a fact, was my belief, i meant to state my belief, not to state that it is a fact.

I welcome any answer that could provide me greater insight

Thanks. Now i hope i've bringed you some insights of how i think. You said I state facts from my personal beliefs, my intentions are the opposite.

The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other

Some people, like Harry see all of our intentions, Therefore i'm not sure about the communication itself is wrong. It's the toughts and ideas that don't pass trough our mental filters.

[kovan]

i have NO clue where to start and stop based on what was said..
so if anyone want their post replied by me please let me know

Gen-X - I have nothing against you, honestly. The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other. When either of us say something the other takes it completely the wrong way (ie you thinking I am nervous or upset) and both of us end up frustrated at the others apparent innability to see what we are saying.


I realize you are saying this to Kedaman, but I have found your statement to be VERY true here. The Internet in general is complex. But the we can all communicate with each other. But that doesn't mean we will understad each other. For example, we missing some of the other elements in a conversation. (Voice stress, body language etc..) These are used in conjuction to explain somethng that may not make sense to another without these qulities. Example. I say this Fish was HUGE. You read it and your thinking HUGE as 50 feet, when I am only saying it to be 4 feet. But if you were here in person, I could SHOW you with my gestures.

My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier. Of course you can get SOME tidbits here and there, but you will NEVER get the full picture of what another person is talking about.

Now do you understand where I am comming from Gen-X ?

Knight

[EatenByGators]

Ahhh, you two kissed and made up.. how sweet.. LOL


Hey KV, I do understand.. what finger am I holding up? Hahahahahaha

I'm just raggin ya... Yes, I do understand what KV is saying and that is soooooo true.. I communicate with people every day, and I have noticed one fact. If you are busy, and don't have time to talk, sometimes the other person takes it the wrong way thinking your pissed off at him. When your REALLY not. Your just busy and don't have time to talk. Simple ehh? heh.. not as simple as you might think. It's rough trying to explain that "No.... I wasn't pissed, I just had some work I had to do... nothing meant by it."

So, KV, keep up the good work, I may not beleive what you beleive, (Not sure I even know what I beleive.. LOL) but I think your intentions are good and hope it works out. ;)

EBG

[Gen-X]

Harry

you just have to sort of... guess


I think that is where I differ from other people. To me a "guess" is to collect as much information as you have and to make an educated assessment on what the answer is.

Now I know "educated assessment" is a fancy way of saying "guess" but for other people "guessing" is as you said... a gut-feeling or a hunch and not something based on trying to work out what the answer could be.

Kedaman

Gen-X, If you get frustrated about that somone believes there is a God, then you have a big problem, because there always will be


Most people say they are Christian or Muslim or that they follow a "particular" view of what God is, rather than just "he is". That then makes it possible to look at the source of their belief and to see if it is flawed.

When you say it there is no source, no book, no law, nothing having been written or come down and so you cannot analyse it to determine if it has merrit. That is what I mean by completely impossible to quantify, at least talking with Harry or Kovan you can look at the same material they read and see for yourself if you think it is valid.


Now i have never stated God's existance as a fact. I hope that removed some of your frustration


I think you were like I was earlier. We stated something and because we believed in it we kind of gave it more credibility than just being our opinion. Way, way back in the beginning when you first stated your belief you stated it in such a way that made it sound like it was absolute and definate (something I do a lot of unfortunately :( ) and so from then on I took that to be your belief.

But now I am of the understanding it is your opinion that God must exists and that you don't really have anything other than what convinced yourself that this is true. :)


Now i hope i've bringed you some insights of how i think.


It has a bit. Just to confirm that I am reading you right is it the fact that you believe the universe must have been created at some time and thus must have a "creator" that is the main reason you believe in a God?


Some people, like Harry see all of our intentions


Thats because he isn't the one they are directed at ;)


It's the toughts and ideas that don't pass trough our mental filters.


That I most definately agree with.

Knight Vision

but I have found your statement to be VERY true here


That is what I was trying to put across to you when I said I was not attacking you. Though the words themselves would have came out like I was trying to tear you down if you could have heard those words spoken you would have heard the calm inquisitory nature of someone who breaks things down to determine their validity. If they are incapable of being broken down then they can withstand scrutiny.

It was a questioning and debating nature and not an attacking one... but as you so rightly pointed out it gets terribly lost on here.


My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier.


I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do understand and agree that you cannot get the spiritual side of the religion, or the emotion and feeling in it.. but surely you can get the doctrine well and truely put across. After all they are words on a page just like the Bible and thus can be analysed for their integrity based on cross-references and contradictions... just like reading a science book.

It is supposed to be a "guide to life" and yet if it is not possible to look at it logically then its not much of a guide is it ;)

This is why I go on about quite a few things. Those who believe in the Bible believe in the fact that "their" God is the one that created the universe and everything in it. That would mean every other person who beleived in a different God that created the universe would have to be wrong in your eyes and that kind of xenophobic seperatism is what I truely dislike most about religions.

Does that make sense to you KV? Can you see where it is I am coming from on this? I truely have humanity's best interests at heart in my purpose for discussing it... I can't help but feeling those of a specific religion only have "their" people best at heart :(

KV - My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier.



Gen-X - I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do understand and agree that you cannot get the spiritual side of the religion, or the emotion and feeling in it.. but surely you can get the doctrine well and truely put across. After all they are words on a page just like the Bible and thus can be analysed for their integrity based on references and contradictions... just like reading a science book.


Actually, talking about a doctrine is not always as easy as it may seem. Like I gave the "HUGE FISH" example, well there are things in the bible that is like that too. Remember, there are multiple languages on the net and we all don't see things the same way. That's all I was saying. Remember, WARS have been started over religion and that is without the Internet.. LOL


Gen-X - It is supposed to be a "guide to life" and yet if it is not possible to look at it logically then its not much of a guide is it.


I agree with you saying it's a Guide to life. But, even a tech manual can be complicated for people who only browse its pages. In fact, there is a scripture that talks about this very thing. ;)

Knight Vision

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

Actually, talking about a doctrine is not always as easy as it may seem. Like I gave the "HUGE FISH" example, well there are things in the bible that is like that too


Excuse my ignorance then but if the Bible does not put across all that it is meant to, why would God have made it the only PHYSICAL source of his direction?

Surely he would have chosen the most succinct and most clear method of telling his people how he wanted them to live. If he then placed them in a medium that left itself open to such large diversity in meaning and understanding it seems it would CREATE more problems than solve them.

Somehow I cannot see the creator of the universe who knows all and sees all willingly directing the creation of a book that would not convey what he wanted.

I guess the rhetoric to that is "Thats why you go to church and talk with other people"... But that puts humans into the mix and we all know humans are even worse than the written word when it comes to hidden meanings, ulterior motives and just plain human error.


But, even a tech manual can be complicated for people who only browse its pages. In fact, there is a scripture that talks about this very thing.


Who ever said anything about just browsing its pages? Most of the people who have commented on it in here have read the SPECIFIC verses, looked at the surrounding context and then made direct statements about what was written... no browsing went on at all.

Even a technical manual you can read a specific section and its context and be able to comment specifically on it because ALL the context is correct... not just a portion.

For instance.....

In Genesis it says God took 6 days to create the universe. Now theologists use the excuse "Ah but a day doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour period" and yet elsewhere in the Bible when God told man to make the Ark of the Covenant he said to make it X cubits wide and Y cubits long... he was VERY precise.

Why then would God dictate words such as "day" which have SPECIFIC meaning to the people he was telling it to and then really mean a different scale of units? If this were the case would have said it took 6 "very long but undetermined periods of time" to create the universe.

It is that kind of contradiction that can be read about, studied and then presented in a logical manner.

Unforutnately all the answers or explainations to this are NOT logical and most of them try to find ways to AVOID this glaring fault and still maintain their beliefs. That is where the problem comes in in my honest and humble opinion... we don't talk on level playing fields, one side would never admit a flaw even if they did see it... because that would mean they could no longer place 100% credibility in that which they have built their life around.

So their motives reveals the reasons they think the way they do. My motive is just to find the truth... and if it states something that is completely without flaw I will agree with it completely.

[kedaman]

Gen-X

Most people say they are Christian or Muslim or that they follow a "particular" view of what God is, rather than just "he is". That then makes it possible to look at the source of their belief and to see if it is flawed.

When you say it there is no source, no book, no law, nothing having been written or come down and so you cannot analyse it to determine if it has merrit. That is what I mean by completely impossible to quantify, at least talking with Harry or Kovan you can look at the same material they read and see for yourself if you think it is valid.

You feel more comfortable with a Christian or Muslim, than me? Just because they have more flawed beliefs? And yet you try to remove them, one by one, and if you succeed, you will just feel more uncofortable. I have to ask for your motives again.

It has a bit. Just to confirm that I am reading you right is it the fact that you believe the universe must have been created at some time and thus must have a "creator" that is the main reason you believe in a God?

Not exactly, maybe but that's not the usual word "creator" we would think about, since the creation were talking about is a bit difficult to explain in detail.

[HarryW]

There is really no useful information to base an educated guess on though. Gen-X, you often say that the lack of information means something, but I don't see it like that. I don't presume to make assumptions about the nature of God.

Also, I would like to say that I am really not a member of any specific religion. I don't read religious material, or at least I don't go out of my way to do so. I am not a good example of someone with standard, well documented religious beliefs.