Free Will (One Last Try)

[Gen-X]

I know we have been over it but the issue keeps getting muddied and dragged off in different directions (Intentional?).

The concept that we have "Free Will" :

1.0 Definition :

Free Will : Our ability to make our own choices that is not influenced or directed by any other entity other than our own mind.

If you disagree with this statement then please state your own so we can at least agree on what we are talking about first.

2.0 Statements
Please complete the following if you believe that God exists. If you do not believe that God exists there isn't much point in answering ;)

1. Do we have "Free Will"?

2. Does God know every event that will ever happen?

3. Is who we are and everything we are capable of given to us 100% from God?

4. Is God capable of changing the future?

5. Does God change the future by causing things to happen?



Once people have answered this I will continue. Lets at least get the playing field even for BOTH sides before working this one out.

[Sophtware]

i dont have a comment except for the fact that nothing will be settled with this post.It will just bring up more questions..

[KFayal]

1.0.. Yes I agree with this statement.
2.0 questions..

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) This question is difficult because I believe that God exists in every slice of time concurrently, so from OUR linear perspective, I would say Yes.
5) In reference to question 4, Yes.

Bear in mind that you are talking to a Christian and logic does not apply.

Respectfully,
KFayal

[Gen-X]

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) This question is difficult because I believe that God exists in every slice of time concurrently, so from OUR linear perspective, I would say Yes.
5) In reference to question 4, Yes.


Then perhaps you can explain to me the following contradictions :

A) Free Will and History
If we have free will and yet our "choice" has been already made because God already knows what we are going to do... Then why is it free will?

By the very definition of Free Will our choice is not influenced by anyone but ourselves and yet for history to already KNOW that choice means we are influenced to MAKE that choice. Standard Chronological Logic.

B) Free Will and Changed Future
If we have free will and God "changes" the future then our Free Will has been taken away as God has IMPOSED the change upon us.

[b]C) 100% From God and Evil[b]
If everything that we are comes 100% from God then God gave us the ability and desire to kill, cause pain, hate, be selfish etc, etc...

For what purpose were we given the knowledge, ability and desire to commit such attrocities?

[KFayal]

That would assume logic, and I stated that it does not apply in this case as God transends logic.

Respectfully,
KFayal

[Gen-X]

With respect.... That is a blatant and pathetic COP OUT.

[KFayal]

How can it be a cop out when there is truly no logical explanation?
I find it odd that you are attempting to use logic on something that the Bible says that the logic of the non-believing man will not understand? Your attempts at this only go to help me more fully embrace my beliefs because I see them being played out right before my eyes.

And you are thinking, "Blindness! Those guys wrote that into the Bible knowing there would be people who would try to talk them out of it!"

With SINCERE Respect,
KFayal

[Sophtware]

Aint it strange how just the conversation about religion brings out the beast in many people??

Also in isreal or palestinte where all that fighting is going on..there is death going on in the so-called "Holy Land"


Hmm... me thinks something is fishy.

[KFayal]

Sophtware,
I don't see the relationship you are making with the lack of peace and the Holy-land. The bible is FULL of references to death, bloodshed and loss of life in relation to God. The Israelites were commanded by God in the Old Testament to completely wipe out those surrounding nations who served foreign gods.
They never fully followed through with those commands and so they have been fighting with those same nations to this day.
The fact that they never fully followed through with the command of purging their land (assigned to them by God) of the unbelieving nations is a "type" of the kind of struggle we Christians face every day. Not that they should go out and wipe out people, (although many civilizations since the days of the Israelites in the desert believed this) but that we struggle with the unholy parts of our lives that God wishes for us to remove completely. God showed us that this is impossible by giving us His law leaving all hope lost. This is where the story of Jesus comes in and I'm sure you've heard it a million times already.
So I will not nor can I apologize for the apparent violence you see surrounding "Religion" of which I take no part in.

With respect,
KFayal

[Gen-X]

KFayal

Yes it is a cop out... and the largest of them all.

When you WANT to use logic you do... you say "The Bible says that you will not understand"... that is logic. But when its something you know you are unable to explain you suddenly use the old "We can not explain".

If God created the universe then he created it in such a way that follows logic and reason... Nothing happens without cause and everything is inter-related.

To then suggest that the "Laws" (Which by the way are pure logic) under which God asked you to live suddenly don't apply when it comes to understanding "WHY" those laws exist is pure avoidance.

I'm sorry but alas I cannot talk with someone who has such a lack of understanding in so simple a concept simply to keep their own faith alive.

I know you will not believe so but I truely pity you :(

At least I have the capability to admit I *could* be wrong, that there is room for learning and gaining of knowledge... You on the other hand sit smugly under the belief you are 100% perfectly and TOTALLY right and the rest of the world is wrong.

You have proved your ego and arrogance. :(

[HarryW]

I don't really understand that stuff that's going on in Israel/Palestine. I know it's basically Jews vs. Arabs. From my very very limited viewpoint of it all I can tell is that Palestinians are rioting and getting shot at with rubber bullets & live rounds, and some of them are dying from it, so the remaining Palestinians are rioting some more in protest. Anyone understand it better? (I'm sure someone does)


On the topic of this thread, I'd just like to say, Gen-X, that if you don't want my opinion since I'm not a true believer, just say and I'll leave well alone.

In answer to (A), just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean we don't make the choices ourselves. For instance, I know you consider the universe to be predetermined. This implies that the future is set as I'm sure you already know. Given your definition of free will determinism still allows free will. So it is possible that although the future is set we still have free will.

Now, if you consider God as being independant of time, or being timeless I suppose, He can look back at our future from far in the future. So our future can be His past. Since it is not really sensible to say that we didn't have free choice in the past because we can see what our actions were now, it follows that if you take God to be unaffected by time, He can know what is, to us, the future, while we retain free will.

I hope this isn't going to become an argument. I have been very civil and non-patronising, non-sarcastic, non-anything-else-that's-offensive, and I hope you will respond the same way.

[Iain17]

Gen-x

We have been over this argument before. If I remember correctly it was discussed between you, Harry, and myself. At the time I believed that we had actually achieved something from that discussion. We all seemed to come away from it agreeing that just because an entity can see all of our time, does not mean we have no free will.

In our existence, we have free will, or at least an illusion of free will. It really all depends on how you look at the whole determinism thing. Now imagine an entity that is not bound to our chronological experience of time. This being can travel back and forth through time, and see all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. How does this take away our free will? It doesn't. At our time of living, we still have the free will to make our own choices. However, the being that resides out of our time line knows what we choose to do.

The point is that we still had to make the decision , not knowing what the outcome, or any consequences of that decision would be until after the event.


Kfayal

I am afraid you are another classic example of the unquestioning believer. You yourself state that because you are a Christian, you do not use logic. This is an absurd statement, and it is because of people like you that we have so many wars and catastrophes due to religion. If you people actually took the time out to think logically, and maybe admit that you may have been wrong, then there would not have been nearly as much bloodshed in the world.

The arrogance of your faith really baffles me. Never before have I realised how egotistical true believers are. You seem to think you are above everything. Well I will let you in on a little secret. You are not better than everyone else. In fact, I would say you are worse than most of humanity. Your "holier than thou" attitude really gets up my nose. At least I have the decency to treat everyone as an equal, until proved otherwise, and you my friend have just proved otherwise.

I do not go around basking in the knowledge that because I have an invisible friend I will be going to heaven for eternal bliss. Nor do I go around pointing the finger at people who do not have that said invisible friend, and saying you will be going to hell for eternal damnation. Hah! In my humble opinion you all need to get over yourselves and grow up a bit. Christianity appears to breed children, spoilt arrogant ones at that.

Rant over.

[kovan]

nahh
hehehe
well i will later after i do some research

[KFayal]

GenX.. Now you have reverted to name calling. And again, I can accept your assessment of me with joy. I have made every attempt to treat you with the utmost of respect that each person alive deserves.

Ian17.. And you too, have reverted to name calling. I have really never had any conversation with you at all until now and you have joined GenX in this form of name-calling which frankly seems odd. It's like you have clumped me personally with everyone else's "Religion" when I do not practice any "Religion".

A religion is something you practice religiously, which may or may not have anything to do with a form of god.

All, thinking logically about spiritual matters does not work out. I'm sorry that you don't agree with this, but since I DO believe in the words written in the Bible, and they say. as in Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;"

So, as you can see, I cannot claim to be 'smarter' than anyone because I'm not leaning on my own understanding anyway. I'm trusting 100% in God. So blaming my religion for the bloodshed throughout the ages is fine, because as I see it, there's no religion, and I can't answer for God. He'll do that himself.

[Iain17]

Kfayal

I wasn’t even going to grace your response with a reply, but your ignorance somehow intrigued me.

I have resorted to name calling have I? Sorry I thought Christians liked to be called Christians. Would Satanist suit you better? Or maybe Stevie Wonder? (No offence Stevie, you yourself are cool)

And my friend, I seriously suggest you find out what religion means.

1.0 I think I agree with this definition of "Free Will". I also want to introduce and resolve a distinction in "Will" versus "Free Will".

2.0 I believe:
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes (but is "unwilling"/not required/not necessary and would be "with respect to some {present} time and with respect to a temporal entity such as man)
5. #4 was loaded and this #5 gets even more complexly loaded. Believing in a Deterministic Universe, such intervention as allowing the Big Bang to occur from below the Schwarzchild radius could be called "changing the (determined) future" from those initial conditions (or conditions at that time for the so-called, cyclical believers). From a point of view of letting things "run" or playout, I think I can give a "Yes". From a point of view of "This is the time God ordained to execute this change in the determined timeline, which HE planned from "before the beginning", I'd say, "No".

Who can resist His will? Romans9:19 may be another way to say to any Christian believer that we do not have "Free Will" and also should be a Trust in His plan to protect His creature/creation from other "Wills" Job1:10

To this end, I think "Will" is as was almost mentioned, an Illusion of 'I can do something'. Not that this illusion is a lie, but more like "I can do all things through God who strengthens me". I think this "Illusion" concept is related to surrendering our will to His will because it is best anyway and we will only meet with more resistence trying to "resist" His will.

On one level, I think that I have a "will" that can choose which route to take to work, or what food to eat, but I have no free will because I must work and eat. The "Deterministic Universe" thread led me to believe that even this "will" is much more "slaved" than I thought. It is bounded within another will that is not my own and I cannot resist.

While this first looks unpalatable to the creature, I believe it exposes true trust and is an imperative to "rely not on your own understanding".
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps. (or The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.)

This view also brings on the "no-no" that God is reponsible for good and evil and that I am only His robot. I "trust" that His plan gives me the final "hook-up" and that while His judgement has eternal ramifications, His punishment as regards suffering is not eternal.

Again, I trust (have faith) that I won't even be subject to His wrath on what He has full authority and power to do with as He WILLS!

[Gen-X]

Harry & Iain

I think Iain said it when he said the "illusion" of free will. That was the conclusion I thought we drew last time but with KFayal's entrance I felt it needed rework for his benefit.

Thanks Harry, I appreciate your approach, its soothing the savage beast ;) I did notice however that you said I believed the universe was "predetermined". A while ago there was a post regarding "deterministic vs predeterminism" to which it was resolved that the 2 are different. While I DO believe the universe is deterministic I don't believe it is predetermined in the slightest.

Here is the crux. God is the perfect entity with which to measure whether the universe is predetermined or not and by the fact it is said that he can see our future (not that he can see all of our "possible" futures) indicates that GOD believes it is predetermined (fate, destiny and all that).

Now if we did have free will... TRUE free will (lets leave the illusion et al alone for now), God could still be apart from our timeline and could still look at us from anywhere outside of time but would not be able to see EXACTLY what we did otherwise there was no choice at all.... Kind of like using Guv's example of turning the universe back to the beginning and running it again. Free Will means it wouldn't happen the same twice which of course I very much disagree with because "apparently" God can see the choice we have made before we make it.

That is not free will, though I agree completely and 100% that from our limited perspective it "appears" to be free will because we are unable to see the future that God already sees.

Does that make more sense?

I hope I have explained it in a way that hasn't make me come off poorly, I am certainly trying not to let this drop to the levels it has before.

Kovan

I would be interested to hear what your religion thinks about the questions. To be honest I have no idea what you guys would believe.

KFayal

You have misunderstood again. I gave you my opinion as you asked for me to explain it. If I did "name-call" you then I am sorry you took it that way. Yes I do think you are stupid and that you are a cop out, if me telling you what I honestly and truely think is not to your liking then again I am sorry and hope in the future you can find a way to not be so sensitive ;)


All, thinking logically about spiritual matters does not work out. I'm sorry that you don't agree with this, but since I DO believe in the words written in the Bible, and they say. as in Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;"


I want to talk about this quote for a moment. You said logic doesn't work on spiritual matters.... and yet you used LOGIC to choose to follow Proverbs in the first place.

You read the proverb, analysed it, broke it down into logical pieces, drew a conclusion that the statement was valid and then CHOSE to follow what the statement said.

You are using Logic all the time my friend... in believing every single word in the Bible is true you have used LOGIC to assertain this fact... perhaps it is because you are using this twisted LOGIC without realising it that you are having so many problems with understanding.

Read Kovan's posts about the contradictions in the Bible. How do you explain these? Or are you going to say that it is beyond explaination how the same event can be written in the Bible twice with both times quoting different figures and yet BOTH being 100% right at the same time? Surely I hope not.


The point some of us are trying to make is that when you believe in something as blindly (and the definition of this word is that you don't make your OWN mind up, you allow your mind to be made up by an acient book you cannot prove is valid) as you do, then you open yourself up to committing the same kind of attrocities that others have done.

Let me put it to you another way.

God gave you a brain right? He gave you abilities to use it? He gave the free will to make your own choices? Then why are you not using it as he wanted you to????

On one hand he says "Do what I say" and on the other hand he says "Use what I have given you" and yet you only chose to follow ONE of this orders while letting the logic part of your brain ROT.

Why do you choose to follow only HALF of what he says and deny the fact that he GAVE you the ability to think for yourself?

That is just another contradiction that to me personally is proof that the God as stated in the current version of the Bible does not exist. But like I said before.... What I consider evidence and what you will allow yourself to even look at are 2 different things.

RESPECTFULLY yours,
Gen-X

[KFayal]

You guys really enjoy this don't you? I remain a Christian, and a logical minded person. Apparently this is a paradox to you and I can live with that.

[HarryW]

Hmm, well I think it probably comes down to opinion then. Personally I think it's free will, not just an illusion of it.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that I think.

[HarryW]

On second thoughts ;) what did you think of this?

Since it is not really sensible to say that we didn't have free choice in the past because we can see what our actions were now, it follows that if you take God to be unaffected by time, He can know what is, to us, the future, while we retain free will

I have italicised one particular area I'm interested in.