kovan, how about...

Doctrinal Contradictions.
I would be more motivated to chase those down if you would provide them.

Not on "trinity".
Perhaps on "eternal versus temporal hell or punishment".
Maybe on "something else", something to shake me to my core.

[kovan]

this is all the "contridictions" found so far..
and here is where i pull all those contridictions out from

http://www.beconvinced.com/RELIGION/CONTRADICTIONS.htm
thats the site i get those from..


so whats on this page is what i can offer
again i am not a sheikh(scholar)
however i will do everything in my abilities to find what your looking for
so if you dont find what your looking for on this site
let me know i will assist you

kovan
Interesting. At http://www.beconvinced.com/RELIGION/ULTIMATETESTJESUS.htm about 38% of the way down the page, they use Mark 8:11-12 to say that there was no "sign of Jonah" to contradict Matthew 12:38-40. Yet Mark 8:31 says, "And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." again mentioning the three days.
My understanding is that it is probably meant to be counted as the time he is handed over, "until just before the arrival of Mary to leave the tomb" as is said at the same link.
It involves the physical suffering (and first death) that so many worldy people think is the real sacrifice, as well as the spiritual suffering (and second death), which is the death that Jesus came to save us from.

Hasn't there come a point when you felt that surely others have suffered a greater physical first death (what everyday people simply call death)? That should lead you to ask, "What value is His death?"
The answer is spiritual value.

Who is Jesus?
Muslims seem to also believe that He is coming back. Were there any other "prophets" that existed before Abraham? Why don't Muslims say He is definitely the greatest prophet? Who is "The First and The Last"? Can Jesus make this claim or only The Alpha and The Omega? Who is speaking in Revelations 1:11 and Revelations 22:13? Is Jesus blaspheming? Read chapter 1 and 22 (which I call a harmonic because they are also the First and the Last chapters).
Or do you say that Revelations is also crap? Read Revelations 1:17-18 where He says He was dead.

I suppose your best defence is that the bible is crap. But why would you say that Jesus is coming back? Is Jesus "The Word"? What is "The Word"? Is the Bible the Word? God sent His Word. Is "The Word" crap? Or is this too deep? Not deep crap though. Be carefull. While it is still "today", harden not your hearts. (That means it is still the "day" of salvation). Yes, "day" can mean a period greater than 24 hours.

Who is Jesus?
Who do YOU "kovan" say He is? Just a prophet or one of many great prophets, or "The Christ"? What is The Christ?
Mark 8:38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

By the way, a study on "Trinity" is embedded in these verses. OR a blasphemous prophet; take your pick.

[Gen-X]

VVB

Kovan said to me recently in another post that a person could not "discuss" something unless they had a good knowledge of what they were talking about.

Yet here he is discussing the Bible with you and yet he has very little knowledge of it himself.

More of that Hypocracy.

[kovan]

i believe i know a lot about the bible..
but thats another story

smiles and only smiles from now on :) :)

[kovan]

why say one prophet is superior to another? since we muslims believe they ALL preached the SAME message?
we respect all prophets equally

who was the first prophet? Adam(pbuh)
who was the last
Muhammad (pbuh)

muslims believe jesus(pbuh) will come back, not as a prophet thou because the final message has been revealed

there is a good book out there
called
Dajjal (which means Anti Christ), by Ahmed Thomas
this book points out a lot of good things about Jesus (peace be upon him)
and i "kovan" say he is one of many prophets from God
however he is mentioned more than other prophets (according to quran there were 125 000)

what makes him more "popular" is because he was given a revelation
while some other prophets, out of that 125 000
were just messengers for their people, and some just for their families..
Moses, David, Jesus, Muhammad(peace be upon them all) were given revelations (holy books)

why should muslim say he is THE greatest prophet?
muslims cannot make one prophet superior to another..

virtualVB
and one other thing, one question i asked a while ago which i never got an answer to, or i never saw the answer..

i asked
if i believe in jesus, i am saved
and if jesus died for my sins i can do what ever i want, as long as i believe in him and that he died for my sins i am saved..
or is there a deeer meaning to this?
something i dont undrestand yet
i would like you to elaborate on this please
and thank you

[Gen-X]

Kovan


and here is where i pull all those contridictions out from

http://www.beconvinced.com/RELIGION/CONTRADICTIONS.htm
thats the site i get those from..


You only know about the bible from what you have read on the site you mentioned... You even said that is where you got the contradictions from... not from having KNOWLEDGE of the subject but from using someone elses.

So again what I said stands perfectly. You "think" you have knowledge of the bible giving you a right to discuss but you have just as much knowledge as I would have if I looked something up on a site and then posted it to you.

Yet somehow I don't know enough about the Koran for you to discuss it in this forum but you know enough about the Bible to discuss it on this forum.

That hypocrit word really wont leave you alone will it ;)

And do you know one of the worst traits of a hypocrit? They never actually realise how big a one they are.

Myself? Oh I know I am hypocritical... I can be SHOCKINGLY hypocritical at times... but when someone points one out I try and learn from it.

What are you learning from this???

[HarryW]

Ever consider that just maybe Kovan's only source of knowledge isn't that website? Ever even think that maybe he has good general knowledge of the Bible? No? Hmm, I didn't think so, that wouldn't allow any opportunity to make a pointless argument out of nothing and we can't have that.

[Gen-X]

QUOTED FROM KOVAN ABOVE

so whats on this page is what i can offer


Maybe I am a Harry-like retard... but when someone says that this is what they can offer and doesn't say "I can ALSO offer such and such because I have had experience X and experience Y" it would seem to indicate it is the only source they are using.

Would have thought that was obvious... but I guess we are talking about Harry after all aren't we.

[HarryW]

Yes that makes perfect sense if you conveniently ignore it when he said "i believe i know a lot about the bible.. but thats another story". Of course that wouldn't imply anything to you, you're not the best at logic as we've all seen. Over and over and over again.

[Gen-X]

Actually Harry my logic works better than that.

1. Considering he does not see the correlation between him/Koran and VVB/Bible it means he is adverse to missing things

2. As he stated that you can only discuss a topic if you have knowledge of it then unless he wants to seem a hypocrit which he is known to avoid he of COURSE would "assume" his knowledge of the Bible was good

3. As the only sources he has ever stated come from Muslim sites and he has offered absolutely no information outside of those sites he currently has a 100% miss rate from prior knowledge

4. Saying "but thats another story" doesn't indicate there is in fact another story as I can probably assume correctly in saying his "extrernal" source of information for the Bible comes from one of his many previous girlfriends and possible the reason he broke up with the last one... which doesn't validate the fact the source (which is now twice removed) is actually a good source at that

(Care to validate my last one Kovan?)

Would you like me to go on? Or are you just going to keep saying I am wrong because your poor widdle nose is out of joint and the only way to get rid of the big bad man is to chuck a hissy fit?

[HarryW]

There's a big bad ego around here somewhere, can't say I've seen a big bad man.

[Gen-X]

YOu can talk Mr Holier-Than-Thou-I-Say-It-Its-Right

[Arbiter]

Quit bickering.

[kovan]

hmmm hehehe
i swear this is turning funny
and how Gen X tries change something i said and make it look like i said another

when i said "thats another story"
i meant that if you really wanna get into how much i know about the bible then there should be a new thread for that


now why did i break up with my last girlfriend?
if you REALLY care to know
i will tell you
it had NOTHING to do with religion

we were suppose to go to europe
she wanted to go by cruize i wanted to fly
one thing lead to another
and we broke up
and if you want to know details on what was said to have lead to the break up
i will tell you
right now me and her as good friends before we even were togather

one thing:
you make a lot of assumptions, i must say most of them suck :)))

kovan
My point is that you (and Muslims) seem to have a degree of respect to Jesus (although you don't call him God). Jehovah Witnesses seem to have a similar view of Him.

If Jesus is a true prophet of God (which I believe, but even more than a prophet--and is too profound for you because of "Trinity" issues), do those verses show that He blasphemed?
I see them as His claims that He is God.

What confuses me is that if you want to say that the bible is crap, then why do you believe that Jesus is coming back?

For this discussion, I'm not that interested in how great a prophet He was, just explain the "Blaspheming Prophet" idea (or the requirement that He is God, yet there is One God, yet He claims He is the Son--enter man's term "Trinity"--we haven't even begun talking about the Holy Spirit aspect)

Salvation also has an aspect of "witnessing". So you would do well to address the question, "Who is Jesus?" even if you don't share your (personal) answer on this forum.

God Bless.