Religion... The NEXT Step

[Gen-X]

We have discussed religion ad nauseum here....

And it seems the only answer that stood out was that if someone believes or does not believe then any discussion, validation or attempt to prove otherwise only polarizes people towards the views they already hold (Thanks VVB for that insight, it truely was the only gem in all of this)

So the next question obviously is, how on earth do people ever change from believing to not-believing... or from not-believing to believing... or from one religion to another if any analysis or validation of ones beliefs (or lack there of) simply polarizes people to what they already believe?

What is the telling factor that changes your mind? What is the proof that causes your swing?

I've had feelings that I describe as "enlightenment" when I had believed on one side of a matter and could not grasp the other side. Then, without understanding the path, I had all this knowledge on the other side, but could not teach/relate to others on the former side. These were not religious matters and the events were few. But I suspect that this happens "religiously" as well.

So I appreciate that as a non-believer (that I cannot claim I ever was an "unbeliever", but only having less understanding of where I stood) it is unfathomable to see a path or line of reasoning to get to the believing state. Also, from the believing state (of my belief anyway), I don't believe that one can lose his salvation (once saved), so it is again unfathomable to see a road back to the former state of unbelieving.

Many "ways of life" do talk about "enlightenment". Unfortunately, I didn't find this definition in the dictionary (so in a way, I'm making up my own terms), so the above is only how I describe the path or lack of it; and call it "enlightenment".

Christian belief is that "Faith comes by hearing...the word".

[Gen-X]

Thank you for the reply VVB... And I actually agree with you ;) (Don't fall over)

The question does go begging however... that if someone has never tried the other side how then do they know the other side is not the right one?

Is that not like saying strawberry tastes better than chocolate without ever having actually tasted chocolate?

Generally l have meet people who have been converted to christianity...though usually one of the fringe sects of the religon....but l am yet to meet some one from one of these groups who have had a revision in belief. Same for Muslims etc etc

And now for a truely tasteless joke.

What's in this drink anyway....maybe l don't believe in god
recorded in Jonestown

[HarryW]

I think I've heard, in the midst of religious discussions (or arguments), a couple of people say they stopped believing. I think perhaps dvst8 and a few others. Also Gen-X? I think he said something along those lines. Only Muslim I've seen discussing stuff like this is Kovan, and I can't remember what his story was.

[Arbiter]

My mother is a devoted Christian and ergo I went to church a lot when I was younger. I therefore know a lot of Christians. Also, about 80% of my classes at College and Uni were Muslim, so I also know a lot of Muslims.

I also know other people with some really whacky religions (IMHO) but that's irrelevant here.

They may come as a bit of surprise (esp. to Kovan - wonder what he thinks of this) but two of my ex-girlfriends were Muslim.

The above was for supporting evidence so people don't think I'm making the following statement arbitrarily...

I note that Christians are just as happy to discuss religion as Muslims are, but with one fundamental difference.

Most Christians I know don't like being asked probing questions about their religion. When a Christian is asked a question about the Bible and they don't know the answer they try and explain it, but when it becomes more apparent they are unable to answer it they get really stressed and snap "I'm not a priest" or refuse to answer the questions. This is with the exception of Vicars (etc) and some really devoted Christians.

Most Muslims (my ex-girlfriends for example) on the other hand are more than happy to answer questions and if they don't know the answer, they say they don't. And they'll go and find out.

I realise this is a general statement and it is not all encompassing. I wonder what the response will be to this...

[kovan]

arbiter - actually the suprising part was that you went to school with muslims that made up 80% of the body of class. i wonder where that is
about the gf stuff hehe
you go man
if you care
my first gf was hindu
my second gf was christian,
my third was a christian.
my 4th was athiest
my 5th was also a christian
when i mean christian, i mean devoted ones
and my last one that i am with is muslim

about the generalization..
i have to agree that most I discussed and asked questions eventually ended up saying "their not priests"
but however i have met only few that actually discussed in a well mannered way

HarryW, would you be kind to rephrase the following?

I think I've heard, in the midst of religious discussions (or arguments), a couple of people say they stopped believing. I think perhaps dvst8 and a few others. Also Gen-X? I think he said something along those lines. Only Muslim I've seen discussing stuff like this is Kovan, and I can't remember what his story was.


i didn't quite undrestand the last sentence
thank you

Gen X
------

just a suggestion,
when you post a verse from the Quran
would you be kind to post the chapter number with it?

like 3:4 ect..
makes it easier

about that heaven and universe..
some translations refer to it as "heavens"
and some refer to it as universe..
but if your interested in exactly what it says in the quran
read the arabic..

and you didn't answer my question..

would you have sex or sexualy activities with a woman who is going throu menstration?

kovan
How is this possible to occur in the koran?

about that heaven and universe..
some translations refer to it as "heavens"
and some refer to it as universe..
but if your interested in exactly what it says in the quran
read the arabic..

You said that all texts (copies/publications) are the same as some "original" text. Now you say that some refer to it as "heavens" and some as "universe".
Then you say to read the arabic.

Kindly explain the difference between what you said and what I said about reading the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek New Testament versus other language translations such as English.

Gen-X
In my particular case, I can only remember having "degrees" of faith, not absolute belief nor absolute unbelief. So I would say that this strawberry tastes better than this strawberry. I also basically said that the bible says 'if you start out liking chocolate, then as you continue to be around strawberries, that is the way to acquire the taste and preference for strawberries (and once acquired, you cannot go back to chocolate.)'
My scientific pursuits are the closest I come to unbelieving. I suppose it is my underlying bias which tends to apply "initial conditions" as a reason for God versus a bias against God's existence tending to apply "initial conditions" as a reason for the nonexistence of God. Basically the same argument as to why two people given the same evidence still conclude differently.

Food for thought: Counterfeit investigators do not study all the counterfeit variants; they study the true article so that they can know a counterfeit when they see one.
I suppose this can only lead me to "True Christianity" because we cannot start with the given "this is true" to find "which one is the truth".

That I would prefer to seek "True Christianity" doesn't address the original topic, though "hearing the word" does if you are an unbeliever..

[Edited by VirtuallyVB on 10-05-2000 at 11:29 AM]

[kovan]

quran in arabic is the original
every quran you find is identical

so the arabic term when translated into english is refered to as "heavens" or universe..
this is where english is limited... when translating from one language to another, it often lacks stating a accurate meaning..
thats why its recommended that one reads arabic instead of english..
so when universe and heavens are brought up and one may say "how come it says universe and heavens in english"
then thats when they pull out the arabic
and figure out which one is closer to the real meaning
english meaning of the quran is only HUMAN interpertation of what God said

the arabic is what GOD said
not throw a human
but what god said..
for example
if i said "my name is kovan"
then i have said that
but if you say "kovan said his name is kovan"
then that is what your interperation of what i said..

so in short
Arabic Quran is what GOD said
english and other translations of the quran is what HUMAN think God said

like if you open to the first chapter,
verse 2, some translators whill say
001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

and i have read english translations of the same verse
saying "All parise is due to Allah, Lord of the universe
so its all how one interperts it
and the correct arabic term for this is "Aalammin"
if i was to translate that word into english
i would say both worlds, universe are correct
becuase in my defination they both group EVERYTHING into one..

and Quran is ONE, no extra publications or anything of that sort, consists of 114 chapters, and is EXACTLY what God said..

so i hope that cleared up the misundrestanding of "some places says heaven and some places refer to it as universe"
because that is only a english translation..


now to explain what you asked
Greek/Hebrew bible is it DIRECT word of God?
or its a mans thought of what God or Jesus said?
if it is direct word of God then i have as much faith in it as i have in Quran
how ever bible is not direct word of god
its men's interpertation of God's word

thats where bible and quran become different
Quran is Direct word of God
Bible is not Direct (this is what has lead me and all other muslims to believe that it has been changed and it is not in its original form)
yes i believe the ORIGINAL (notice i am refering to Gods DIRECT word) bible is as ACCURATE as Quran
because i believe that Torah, Bible, Quran ALL preached with the same message, from the same God
but i am refering to Direct word of God from these holy books

so the english translation of the quran is NOT word of god, its is an interpertation of words of God
and over time, if this english translation is used primarily and the arabic is forgotten
then Quran will become as corrupt as how I think the bible has been corrupted
there for i never rely on english meaning of the quran, i only try to undrestand the english and if i have doubts i go to arabic

thats why every quran you see today that has english or other interpertation
arabic must exist within the same book just incase there is men mistakes of interpertatoion




[Edited by kovan on 10-05-2000 at 12:26 PM]

[Arbiter]

First,

Out of all the languages in the world, why would the divine being speak Arabic?

Second,

Kovan, I think you just shot yourself in the foot. One of the points made elsewhere (probably by Gen-X) was that the majority of mistakes in the Bible were likely to have been made at the translation stage and I think you vomited at that suggestion.

Third,

Kovan I believe you were offering soft drinks from my fridge in another thread. Tut, tut, tut. Surely there's got be a Koran passage about soft drink peddling. Oh never mind, just remember to bring some with you to replace them...

[kovan]

ahaha
nahh
arabic is not DEVINE
it just happens to be the language of what the Quran was revealed in
so nothing devine about the language..
wish i spoke arabic well enough to undrestand all the quran
that would be sweet,
nothing special about arabs or arabic language
many people think that arab = muslims
not true
i aint arab
i am FAR from being an arab
..

now back to the bible
hehe
shot myself on the foot?

how did i do that?
i have said that bible is corrupted due to men's translations from the beganning of this discussion and i will say it to the end
and thats why there is 39 different versions of the bible today (could be more, but based on the research i did, i found 39)

and men's word is not perfect we all know that..
so if bible is NOT DIRECT word of God
its going to be not perfect due to interpertation of MEN

would you be kind to explain how i shot myself on the foot?

about drinks:
hmmm my fridge is full of all different kinds of fruit punchs
i will bring few different cases over
whats your email so i can email them to you?

[barrk]

Originally posted by kovan


so the english translation of the quran is NOT word of god, its is an interpertation of words of God
and over time, if this english translation is used primarily and the arabic is forgotten
then Quran will become as corrupt as how I think the bible has been corrupted
there for i never rely on english meaning of the quran, i only try to undrestand the english and if i have doubts i go to arabic

[Edited by kovan on 10-05-2000 at 12:26 PM]

So.....you are saying that the English version of the quran is corrupted then, RIGHT??????

[kovan]

not corrupted YET
however it is IN ACCURATE meaning it is NOT explaining everything to its FULL meaning (thats why its REALLY REALLY recommended that one does not rely on the english meaning since it may contain human errors)

[kovan]

So.....you are saying that the English version of the quran is corrupted then, RIGHT??????


hmm i think you mean the interpertation in english
cus no such thing as "english version of quran"

[Arbiter]

That was the point I was going to make next Barrk, I was leading him into it.

So basically Kovan, you're saying the Bible is corrupt because it is translated yet the Koran is only inaccurate when translated.

Are the Korans interpreters more skilled than the Bibles therefore or there some other reason?

PS Fruit punch is cool. I can always pour vodka in...

[barrk]

Sorry...didn't mean to overstep ya but Kovan seems to be making your point for you and he doesn't see it....plus he keeps offering me juice from your fridge but never comes through!! What's up with that???????????

[kovan]

more skilled? could be or not,
but thats not the point i am trying to make
am trying to say is
IF quran is translated into another language and that "version" of the quran is used as sole holy book
then of course it will be as corrupt as the bible
no doubt about that

however
quran states somewhere.. that "we have made this the final revelation and we are going to protect it"

now thats how i recall the verse so it is NOT exactly as above it it says the same thing..

so for 1500 years, it has not changed from original
and it wont til end of time
because as a final revelation it cannot be corrupt
so that is WHY when someone tries to modify the quran and claim it as to be as good as the original it is againts islam

so to sum it up
IF (BIG if, since a its one of beliefs in islam that quran cannot change from arabic) quran does change from arabic to another language
it will be corrupted as well

i am human and i reason and my reasoning says samething as yours does.. that if quran does change to another language
it will be corrupted

and of course no muslim will change it to another language cus that would be againts their belief
and muslims wont allow someone to do it anyways


i would buy you the vodka to mix with it
but you probably know
the person that drinks, sells, or buys whats forbidden is going to gain as much sin as if they ate/drank/done the did :)
so no vodka for you

did yo know at one point drinking alcohol was allowed for muslims?

[kovan]

punch giving is not allowed unless the owner agrees to it
from what i see arbiter doesnt like his juice given away
so i will wait til he allows me to give it out
and we can have a party, i will be drinking punch of course

[barrk]

If punch giving is not allowed, punch offering shouldn't be either!

[kovan]

i offered you some from my fridge in another thread

[barrk]

Mom taught me it was okay to cry as long as it was not used for manipulation.

Show me at least one Christian that would not concede that the translation into their language must be inaccurate compared to Hebrew and Greek texts. Your argument is the same as mine to "go to the Hebrew or Greek for the bible" as you say "go to the Arabic for the Quran".

At least the Jews and Christians say that man is the secretary that penned the bible. There were those commandments penned by the finger of God into stone though.

Which copy did God write of the Quran? Or did I miss your point? Does that copy show that God is a righty or a lefty? ;)

[barrk]

Regardless of whether God penned the Bible, man penned the Bible, God penned the Quran, man penned the Quran. Both books have some wonderful teachings and perhaps we need to take a step back and realize that. Some of the things I see you (Kovan) pointing out as contradictions have no bearing one way or the other on the wonderful lessons and thoughts contained in the passages. God gave us all minds and free-will. Hopefully since He made each of us so unique and mankind so diverse, He doesn't mind unique and diverse view-points regarding Him.

[Guv]

As an atheist, I will avoid comment on theology. Many years ago, one of my Jewish computer friends pointed out an interesting fact about copies of the old testament.

The Torah (& perhaps other old testament books) include a count of the occurrences of each letter in each chapter. This data is used to verify that the hand copy process is accurate.

Cute! Over two thousand years ago somebody came up with the modern computer concept of using redundant data to maintain (or verify) accuracy.

Due to the above, I would expect the Hebrew versions of at least the Torah to be very accurate.

I do not think the Christians were that smart. Furthermore, I do not believe that any of the very original texts are available. I also think Christ spoke Aramaic, not Greek. Therefore, a Greek text would necessarily be a translation of Christ's words from one language to another.

[Gen-X]

We have polarization again people.

Each person cannot see their own flaws, yet say they are not flaws when others point them out. This means we have on of the following :

1. Everyone is right
I don't think so... Cannot truely explain why but it just doesn't seem to sit right with everyone having the "one true God" ad nauseum.

2. Everyone is wrong
Probably to some extent all of us (myself LARGELY included) has made mistakes and is in error of things. That we are unable (or unwilling) to admit them is part of the problem.

3. Someone is right and the rest are blind
One of us is right and the rest of us are all blind and unable to see the truth of things. Again this doesn't really seem to fit (pity for me :D ) so I guess this isn't the answer either.


Someone said about accepting the good writings of these books and stop fussing over the nitty gritty... I agree, but when each book says they contain the "One true God" that is an indirect implication to "The rest of the world is wrong"... with that as a foundation any good writing is tainted by a universal misunderstanding that makes people egotistical enough to think they are "chosen".


What it STILL fails to explain is why people just refuse to get along... Oh they act nice on the surface and all but deep down they think the other person is following a falsehood and will go to hell for not following the "correct" one. :(

If I am the only one that seens the universal sadness in that please shoot me ;)

[Arbiter]

But the burning question is still...

Anyone care for some Orange Juice?

[Edited by Arbiter on 10-06-2000 at 09:52 AM]

[barrk]

I'd love some, Arbiter!!!! You are living up to your name. OJ heals all.

Actually, I think there is another possiblity Gen-X. Maybe our Gods are all the same entity. Perhaps He didn't reveal everything to us because He wanted us to think for ourselves and have these discussions so we can all see that we are basically the same whether we envision Him as one God or the other.

I'm always reminded of Mad Magazine's rendition of this subject a couple decades ago:
A crowd of people of different denominations disperse into their separate houses of worship while wondering what goes on in the other houses of worship. The next scene is that they all are praising God.

They forgot the scene of the atheist, by his reasoning in logic, is also praising God and exhibiting faith.