Gen-X, VirtualVB, HarryW

[kovan]

the other post was going out of WACK so i decided to make a new one and not get lost as i have with the other post...

VirtualVB - i am totally lost on what your trying to say to me... and if you wanna start some where explain either king james sucks or original does. meaning there is no way it explains that jesus is god, about the abraham thing, dude you are trying to prove the WHOLE trinity based THAT verse which is sooo questionable.. and as for as Gen-X being alone.. well thats his way of life and i have nothing againts that, and you should try to prove your belief to him and maybe he can see your point of you (which i doubt it could happen since your claiming king james versions sucks (based on it doesnt explain the original text correctly)

Gen-X - well i respect how you look at religion and i wont argue with you, but if your a big fan of modern science and having things explained in details to you
i suggest you look up on quran (please do not think i am trying to preach you cus am not ) but it would definately help you decide weather islam is just another man's limitation of thinking..
things that were recently discovered with modern science are EXPLAINED in DETAIl in the quran..
it would be good to read up on it to see if its like bible or budhha zeus stories ect..

about how virtualvb's answering scheme, your right but everyone would do that

I DEFINATELY would be interested in your way of thinking...
and maybe we can DISCUSS what you base your logic on and maybe you could prove islam wrong..
i am on a mission to find the truth
and if you could stir me another way then maybe i believed wrong..
althou to do that you have to know about islam and how you can disprove it..

so far i believe it is THE absolute truth..
maybe someone could prove it other wize..

posted by GEN-X
Kovan's claim is the same as yours... that some text to which neither of you personally have absolute knowledge is EXACTLY the same text that existed 2000 years ago, go on believing it like you actually stood there and watched it magically write itself 2000 years ago.


i agree with you, i wasnt there and havent watched it for 2000 yearz (by the way quran has been revealed around 1400 years ago)
but the point here is HOW valid is this "text"
if it proves itself on what it claims then woudl that make you think about weather its in original form?
and about me mentioned that there are 4 or so copies in meusums that historians have proved are close to the time when it was actually revealed.. and now every copy of quran matches those in meusums..

but the point is - there is NO doubt contridictions in the bible i believe it is NOT authentic since it contains contridictions.....
do read up on quran and see if you can make the same claim about quran as i have made about bible (dont know your exact views on the bible..)

HarryW - whats your views on Quran or bible? if any

[Arbiter]

I think what we have to bear in mind is that the Bible is a collection of books written by different people.

If you take, for example, an event (Princess Diana's funeral, The D-Day landings etc) and then ask half a dozen eye witnesses to write their own account of what happened, then there are going to be discrepancies. They will all have seen the same thing, but with a different perspective - a different angle. It doesn't make the event less true or the accounts less authentic, but there will be differences in what people wrote.

PS As Kovan suggests I would suggest to all to read the Koran (or a Translation if learning a whole new language is a bit of a daunting prospect for one book).

[kovan]

first few verse of the quran that was REVEALED translated like
096.001
YUSUFALI: Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
PICKTHAL: Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,
SHAKIR: Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

096.002
YUSUFALI: Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
PICKTHAL: Createth man from a clot.
SHAKIR: He created man from a clot

Defination of clot -
clot (klt)
n.

A thick, viscous, or coagulated mass or lump, as of blood.
A clump, mass, or lump, as of clay.
A compact group: a clot of automobiles blocking the tunnel's entrance (source: dictionary.com)

if you know much about science then you would conclude that clot is what we are made out of - spermish...

and the second verse of the quran reads

001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

notice it says WORLD(S) not just world..
so from this we know there is more than one world (galaxy, planet..)

[kovan]

arbiter

i agree with you that it is a collection of books by different people... and thats why the whole thing is corrupted and over time as each people wrote what THEY THINK of its meaning has made the true meaning of the bible to change and be corrupted.

about the fact that learning a new language.. yep specially classic arabic... there are some words in the quran that NOT even arabs can undrestand the TRUE meaning of it...
Quran claims to contain EVERYTHING that CAME, that is here, and that is TO come
so 114 chapters explain from the start of universe to its destructions.. to be able to undrestand it all, will require more than few einstiens..

Have I answered ANY of yours?

Even if I had one point (which I don't, I have many more), that is the answer to your question. You said you were looking for such a claim by Jesus in the Bible that He was/is God.

I also provided exactly where to go to see what the Bible says about God (which is simply in the third word of the original Hebrew text) which has loads to do with the concept of "trinity".

I also showed you that Genesis 1 isn't as you say and asked where in Genesis 1 did you see such a thing.

I also began addressing your lengthy post in chronological order. What method of analysis do you intend to follow in your supposed search for truth?

In my view, your method (if you have one) is not to search.

I suggest you pick ONE topic and discuss (i.e. ask your question; another will answer and may even ask another question; then you answer that question; until a conclusion is reached. That conclusion may be to agree to disagree or maybe there will actually be an agreement). I don't think there is a language barrier here. It looks more like you are avoiding the issue which you yourself raised.

Also, do you really think that readers here believe that you will have respect to have such a discussion while you use phrases like "this or that sux or sucks"? You are not sincere or respectfull.

Yes, Gen-X, kovan is not respectfull because he does not conform to MY view of respect.

In closing...may the blind remain blind and the seeing remain seeing (with greater polarization). Bring on the End Game.--Amen

[Gen-X]

Kovan

but it would definately help you decide weather islam is just another man's limitation of thinking..


There is no need to. Rather than decidion "which" religion is right or which one is true I went to the CORE of the problem... of Deities in general and from that gained what I personally feel is the truth in that none exists.

As a result of that it doesn't matter how good a text is.. because ALL texts are written by men and none of them can be validated in any way.


if it proves itself on what it claims then woudl that make you think about weather its in original form?


Think about what that statement means. "If it proves itself on its claims then is it original?".

If it proves itself on its claims then it only says that it was written using information known at that time... it doesn't give it any validity at all.

That was something they tried to use to prove the Bible correct... the fact it had within it a list of events and phenomenon's that occured and said that because it correctly predicted this earthquake or that flood then it MUST be right.

****, that means I could write a weather almanac and it would be considered the word of God simply because it could catalog events as they happened.


and about me mentioned that there are 4 or so copies in meusums that historians have proved are close to the time when it was actually revealed


EXACTLY... "revealed". How does that prove it was the word of a God and not of a man? If it had to be "revealed" then by that very nature it suggests it was kept secret before then and in the hands of good old fallable MAN.

That is my point to you and VVB... Neither of you know what happened in the years inbetween... neither of you know if someone decided to re-write it or add to it or change it to suit them. Its the claim of the writing being God-Inspired that I find the most rediculous. We are said that we have the "will" to do what we want, yet when we are inspired to write by God we ALWAYS write it exactly how he wanted us to... Pah!

Either people should accept we have no will OR free will (happy VVB) at all and that we are all automatons OR they accept that the Bible in ALL its forms (Hebrew as well) was written by a man who has the "will" to put whatever he likes in it.


there is NO doubt contridictions in the bible i believe it is NOT authentic since it contains contridictions


What does authenticity have to do with contradictions? Contradictions are a result of what is written not a validation of WHEN or by WHOM it was written... just as the opposite is not true in that something WITHOUT contradictions makes it authentic.

The Bible was written BY men, FOR men and was dated for the time it was written. It served its purpose back then and did its job well but it is outmoded and outdated today. As it was written by MEN (Funny how God would be sexist and not speak to women to write for the Bible), it is purposely slanted towards the subjegation of women. "You shall OBEY" it says in the Old Testiment... "Ouch! That is rather harsh (says the middle-ages priest), we are not going to win followers with that kind of incorrectness... how about we write a NEW Testiment that is fluffy and overcomes all of the archaic things in the OT"

How is the Quaran different? Is it not written by men? Does your God allow man to choose his own path and take his own action? Then why are you so sure man has not adulterated the words to suit his own ends?

Oh and your verse from the Koran (or is it Qu'ran) about us being made of clots... What is that supposed to prove? That they knew about how man was created back then beyond its scientific means? Is that supposed to prove its validity? If that were true then it would have written in it explicitly the precise series of events that lead to conception... But it doesn't, instead it says something that any bard with half a skill in writing could come up with and those who believe read FAR too much into it to support their beliefs.


so from this we know there is more than one world (galaxy, planet..)


Why do you assume it means other galaxies and planets??? That is what YOU read into it. It could mean other multiverses or other reflections on this world or other time periods or whatever... YOu just conveniently found that it had a coincidence with a topic of discussion bantered around in the 20th century and applied it.


Quran claims to contain EVERYTHING that CAME, that is here, and that is TO come


HAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!

Oh that one kills me. A limited and FINITE number of words can explain every single thing in existance and everything that will be.

If it explains "everything that is here" where is MY name in that book?

VVB

In my view, your method (if you have one) is not to search.


And do you truely think he doesn't think the exact same of you? I asked you to consider what I said before and obviously you couldn't be bothered... stubborn #$*(@#$.


i.e. ask your question; another will answer and may even ask another question....


But thats not how it goes. It goes more like this.

He asks a question, you answer a different question that you know has a bit of truth in it, he is confused, you claim he wont answer your questions and you start saying he isn't sincere. :D


Yes, Gen-X, kovan is not respectfull because he does not conform to MY view of respect


And what is to say your "view" of respect is the right one?

To me you show more respect in taking someone toe to toe than dismissing them as an idiot and beneath their breath in even explaining it. To me respect is about being comfortable enough with someone to be honest in telling them something is bullshit if that is what you truely feel.

To me DISrespect is *****-footing around, trying to be PC, wording things like a fluffy cloud as if the person you are talking to will break if you use a harsh word.

If you go around JUDGING (and by jimeny cricket you are) people on what you personally view as respect you are going to piss a lot of people off in this world.


In closing...may the blind remain blind and the seeing remain seeing (with greater polarization). Bring on the End Game


Why don't you just race towards that end game if you are so eager to get there? What you can't? Its not allowed? Of course not... conveniently put in there so people don't try to get there too early ;)

Don't you just love the bible... Give you something then put it out of reach.. how utterly spiteful ;)

[Iain17]

Kovan / All

It all boils down to interpretation. This is where a lot of problems arise. We all interpret things differently. Sometimes i feel that people do it deliberately when they don't like the real meaning. You can interpret what it says in the Quran one way, give it to another person and they will most likely interpret it in a completely different way.


Quran claims to contain EVERYTHING that CAME, that is here, and that is TO come


HAHAHAHA!! *falls off chair in hysterics* HEHE *oh that was good*

Ok. So does the Iain17 Bible / Quran

Book 1.
Verse 1. One day something will happen


There we go, that covers just about evreything methinks.


Just a side note on translations, becuase i know we have talked about loss of meaning etc. Did you know that Cinderella's slippers were made out of fur, and not glass. This was a mis-interprtation by a translator in the 1600s.

[kovan]

gen-x hehe very funny about that name thing..

what i meant by "contains everything that came and that will come"
i was talking about major events....
if you think your birth was a major event then i do suggest you search IN DEPTH into quran and you will find it..

same goes for ian

you know guyz religion is the worlds BIGGEST contriversial thing
everyone thinks they are right and the athiests think they are right to..

Gen-X what i tried to explain about those verses is
no men did not know the DETAILED stages of birth back 1500 years ago, i mean like getting into super details (if your interested in knowing how much detail quran gives on this topic alone then i will direct you to a link )

embrology books were modified because quran had more info then the embroylogo text books.. (more info on this if you like...)

believe in UFOS? "unidentified objects" not hollywood alien
here AL - JINN ("THE JINN") (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/072.qmt.html)
there is many other references regarding jinns.. but this chapter a dedicated chapter..


the only reason i am giving you this info is it MIGHT interest you, i think you will find it beneficial to read up on Qur'an (same thing as Koran) then maybe you will see that it describes events/discovered that are RECEntly discovered throu science...

n e ways, i think its best to conclude with a chapter from the Qur'an


109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.



so what ever you believe is your choice and what i you or anyone else believe is their choice
that goes for you too VIRTUALVB

gen-x as long as you respect people for their beliefs, then its all good doesnt mean you have to agree

i respect you for what you believe, doesnt mean i agree..


if ANYONE like to undrestand what i am trying to explain, then i really suggest you reading and looking up info from Quran, it will help you get a better undrestanding of what i have been trying to say


[Edited by kovan on 09-21-2000 at 11:02 AM]

[Gen-X]

Kovan

what i meant by "contains everything that came and that will come"
i was talking about major events....


Ah of course! I should have realised that when you said "everything" you REALLY meant just major events... it was plainly obvious.

Is that a contradiction then? That means the Koran has a contradiction in it like the bible so do we throw it out as well?

Can you show me in the Koran the following passages :

- The first genetically cloned human being
- The first use of Warp Travel
- When first contact with aliens will occur
- The exact date the earth is destroyed by the sun

I would consider all of these MAJOR and especially the last one... So if you can point them out I will come up with a few hundred thousand more which I think will prove to you that the Koran is just as flawed as the Bible if it wants to start throwing around pathetic claims like a limited and finite number of words contains an INFINATE amount of information.


you know guyz religion is the worlds BIGGEST contriversial thing
everyone thinks they are right and the athiests think they are right to..


I don't give a flying **** if I am right... only that what I believe is the "truth" doesn't have any glaring faults. If I find a fault I will look for something that is without fault...

Religious people on the other hand will IGNORE fault, dismiss it, blame it on the devil or whatever and continue to follow what they CHOSE to believe in regardless of its truth or validity.


Gen-X what i tried to explain about those verses is


What you tried to explain was that the Koran MUST be correct because it contained knowledge that no man could have known at that time. You failed... miserably.


embrology books were modified because quran


Now you are believing your own "hype" the same as the Bible believers are.


there is many other references regarding jinns.. but this chapter a dedicated chapter..


You can't be serious!?!?!?!

Comparing the jinn (who eventually became the Genie) with Extra-Terrestrial life?????

Now I am starting to wonder if you are more brainwashed than the Bible-benders.


the only reason i am giving you this info is it MIGHT interest you


Actually, what it is highlighting is the fact that you read something in the news or a scientific discovery and then spend your days pouring through the Koran to find a passage that somehow relates to it if you twist your head backwards or stand on your head and then claim that because it already had it in there it MUST be true.

How about proclaiming something BEFORE it happens rather than afterwards? Can't do that? Funny that ;)


gen-x as long as you respect people for their beliefs


When they start respecting the beliefs of other people in the world and stop "Evangalising" and invading uncivilized countries because their Bible TOLD them to take their words to the heathens then I may respect them.

How many people died supporting the Koran? How many people were killed because they didn't believe? What attrocities were committed in the name of your God?



I appologise for my apparent animosity but everyone who shares a belief in a deity seems to have some very obvious character traits that are identical in their function and indicate to me their self-delusion (and wish to continue doing so)... They invariably at some stage say "I urge you to read the book", make jabs at others (like you and the bible) and maintain theirs is flawless (again like both you and VVB).

I find it hilarious that none of you would even be willing to entertain the "possibility" of there being NO God... as if to do so would make you spontaneously combust.. or you do so only on face value to prove a point but not in sincerity.

I believe the "possiblity" of a God, but based on the information I have and the obvious things you can see my opinion of what this God would be like is pretty cruel.

Ask VVB to postulate on the non-existance of a God and he will tell you he would have to be insane to even contemplate it. Oh he will say the words alright but I am sure he then goes to his knees and begs forgiveness for even thinking such a blasphemous thing.


When will you people stop dividing yourselves and start realising we are ALL human beings, we were ALL born on the same planet and it is the PLANET we should be worshiping and not our cultural manifestations we are trained at birth to believe in.

If we all worshiped the planet as much as you guys worship your paper idols, we wouldn't be in a position where we are tearing it to shreds.

But heck... that would be a dumb idea now wouldn't it :mad:

[kovan]

how about learn quran?
about when the sun will destroy earth..

i want you to read the following
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/099.qmt.html

there is so many references to when this will happen (however it doesnt give you EXACT date) it gives you signs when it will happen

quran states "seas will be set on fire"
how does this happen if its WATER?

well scientifically proven
that sun will come so close to earth..

so here is what happens to prove that seas will be set on fire..

we know H20 there is 2 hydregens and 1 oxygen

the sun will heat up the seas SOOO much that these 2 elements will split from each other
and we know oxygen is a gas and hydrogen is a fire lighter or what ever you call it
and boom after they split the hydrogen sets fire due to the oxygen

thats it in a nutshell..

[HarryW]

Kovan: I think that if it was hot enough for water to split into individual atoms of oxygen and hydrogen then the hyrogen would not combust - the energy released in combustion is due to the way the atoms combine into molecules, but since the atoms have so much energy they won't be held by those bonds.

Gen-X: Do you really not care if you're right? I mean, really? I think that's very odd. I want to know the truth, and if I believe anything it's because I think it's the truth - that I think it's the truth has led me to believe it. Would you just as well believe a flawless lie than the truth? (assuming there's such a thing as a flawless lie - a bit like sqr(-1))

I am in wholehearted agreement on the point about caring for the planet.

[kovan]

woudn't it make sense
you have oxygen and hydrogen
why wont they combust?

but i didn't make this statement
scientists did

so scientifically this is proven

there is sooo much science in quran its hard to tell everthing

[kovan]

here is another chapter that shows a lot about the end of time...
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/044.qmt.html

[HarryW]

Well my chemistry isn't fantastic but I think what I said was right. It does make sense, if you read it.

Perhaps they were saying that the hydrogen would undergo a fusion reaction (the Sun is one big fusion reaction) and would therefore appear to burn. Not that anyone would be around on the planet to see it by that point of course. They'd all be fried long ago by that point, or gone to some other part of the universe.

[Gen-X]

Do you understand Chemistry? Do you understand Planetology for that matter.

Harry is right (Just managed to read his before I posted), Water boils at 100 degrees celcius which means before the sun even reached our planet (which would take it 8 minutes to do when it exploded but will go Red Giant well before that) meaning there would be no water left on earth to be "on fire".


This just proves it Kovan... Your Koran (Mmm... interesting), cannot pinpoint a date because if it DID (instead of a "sign" mumbo-jumbo that any freak or insane person can mumble about burning skies etc) it would be seen for a hoax... Instead (as with all religions) all predictions and answers are shrowded in imagery that means you could read them a THOUSAND ways... use them literally when it suits you and claim they are a Metaphore when it doesn't.

So much for it containing "EVERY MAJOR EVENT".

So where is my references to space travel? Alien Contact? Cloning? You missed those quite nicely ;)

Harry

No I truely and HONESTLY don't care if I am right... because if I am wrong that means I have gained knowledge and understanding and can "GROW" from that.

I want to know the truth and I will believe something is the truth for as long as it can withstand validation... when it fails validation then I seek a higher truth.

That is the problem I have been trying to tell everyone who believes in a religion... They care more about their religion being RIGHT than about knowing the actual TRUTH and instead of coming from that stand point they come from one where their mind is already made up.

There is no such thing as a flawless lie... If it is actually a lie then that means a TRUTH must be out there.

Was it a lie to say the earth was the centre of the universe? Nope.. that was just the culmination of our knowledge at that time and it was FLAWLESS. Then they started finding some objects that were moving in slightly different patterns than those they predicted for a terra-centric universe and discovered they were helio-centric and that Sol was but a small part of a larger galaxy.

So a NEW truth came to light. The only people who remained ignorant were those that did not like the idea of the Earth NOT being the centre of the universe and those people were the religious (hence why would God create US and then put us in the smallest corner?).


Religion sprang from a need to attribute answers to things we couldn't explain, from there it grew into what you see today... Now we CAN explain the majority of those things which lead to the development of religion yet the only people who will not let go of it are the religious again...

Funny that ;)

If God exists then he should reveal himself, let it be settled once and for all and we can all go on living and loving the planet...

If he doesn't exist (or if someone wants to come up with a pathetic "We don't understand his plan" excuse) then lets put it to rest and concentrate on what we KNOW and CAN change.

[kovan]

if you read up on that
it doesnt exactly mean making a exact copy
it had to be grown in another sheep ect...

all they did was ALMOST kill all the cells then fed the cells and all turned on and boom you get the sheep

about alien contact
if you read that chapter.. Jinn

jinn has been around before humans..
and they exist today, will exist to end of time
we are not talkinga bout hollywood aliens
alien = unidentified objects..

so there for what ever is unidentified is a alien...

[Gen-X]

You seem to forget the properties of water....

It is the most unique substance in the universe and the ONLY substance that can support life.

No it WONT combust because it would evaporate long before it ever combusted and even at extremely high temperatures it would simply transfer to heat before it would EVER, EVER, EVER ignite.

That is the whole reason why Water is used as a primary coolant even if it is set to 5000 degrees... If it is unable to evaporate it remains liquified.


If you believe the Koran is full of science and this is your level of understanding in science I guess it proves how much TRUE science is actually in the Koran then ;)

[HarryW]

Ah right, I see what you mean now. It sounded as if you were more interested in believing what you thought was true was true than actually believing the truth, which would be more than a little hypocritical ;) Evidently I was wrong.

It is a little odd though, perhaps it's in the wording, that you say you don't care if you're right (if what you believe is the truth) and then you say the reason you don't care is that you can grow from it by changing your mind. If you don't care if you're right how will you find out? I think you have answered this question already, I just feel that what you said is a little unclear. Maybe you could explain a little more clearly next time you say that - we both know you're going to end up repeating all these things in another post ;)

I did say 'assuming there is such a thing as a flawless lie' - it's like the square root of minus one, it cannot exist in reality but it's useful to use it in analysis. That's all academic anyway, you are right; 'lie' was the wrong word to use since it implies deceitful intent. A better word is 'untruth'.

[HarryW]

As a further point of note on the water thing (sorry to keep on about it) if you burn (oxidise) hydrogen you end up with water. The energy is used to break down the bonds that hold the atoms together and is released when the atoms reform those molecular bonds.

Weren't there some "high tech fires/arsonists" less than a decade ago (even in the U.S.) where putting water on the fire would fuel the fire even more? I'm pretty sure that it wasn't oxidation and that it was extremely high temperatures. Dissociation?

I kind of feel bad posting this because it will help him to remain blind.

Anyway, doesn't hydrogen "burn with oxygen" oxidize to produce steam? I don't think that supports his argument because this would create water. He would start and end with water. Thermodynamics doesn't like that highly (perfectly) efficient (perpetual) system methinks.

[Edited by VirtuallyVB on 09-22-2000 at 01:40 AM]

[Gen-X]

Certain Chemicals will burn more when water is put on them.

That is why fire extinguishers have labels on the side of the bottle indicating what "kind" of fires to use which ones for.