Guantanamo Bay ....

[honeybee]

Guantanamo Bay casts shadow on Britain
Times of India, Monday 28th April 2003

It may all have been very different if we were talking about the rights of terrorists operating in Jammu and Kashmir or the extradition of Abu Salem to India. But, Britain's famous sense of fairplay and exaggerated emphasis on human rights is nothing when it comes to the following, intensely ugly facts:

* At least 20 European nationals, from countries ranging from across the European Union, are presently incarcerated in the legal black hole, that American-run Gulag, called Guantanamo Bay.
Though impossible to confirm, it is entirely likely that none of these Europeans is white. The only Taliban-Al Qaeda fighter of America, publicly charged, tried and despatched with due legal process, is the white Muslim American convert, John Walker Lindh.

* Britain, Denmark, Spain, Belgium and France are all accused by human rights groups of publicly caring little and privately not at all about their citizens who continue to be illegally incarcerated with more than 600 detainees.

* Sweden is the only European exception, bravely and somewhat controversially, to have protested most forcefully about the "legal limbo" in which its lone national is being held in Guantanamo Bay's Camp Delta.

Few in public or political life in Britain, America's chief ally and cheerleader, appear worried that their own nationals make up the largest Western contingent at Guantanamo Bay.

The West's conspiracy of silence over Guantanamo Bay is deafening, but it may actually speak volumes about multi-culturalism and the real-time skirmishes of the clash of civilizations. Is multi-culturalism really an article of faith for Britain and the new EU? Or is it just a fashionable marketing tool for ready-chilled meals and ethnic room chic?

Unlike the Stalinist Gulag, there may never be a latter-day Alexander Solzhenitsyn to tell us and lay bare the reality of the Stars and Stripes gulag. Few believe we will ever know, even later, whenever the morally brutalised American administration declares its "war on terror" to be over.

But it is striking that Europe's carefully-constructed, complex architecture of laws, human rights legislation, fussy safety procedures and diplomatic do-gooding is almost quiescent while the world's most powerful country drives a battering ram through the gates of civilised conduct. Now, the Americans have admitted they are holding children captive as well. The Europe that is perilously strict about visa violations, smoking in public, over-long sausages and extraditing Salem to a country where he would receive the death penalty, is unresponsive.

The detained men, who were flown to the remote military base are still illegally classified "enemy combatants". In defiance of the Geneva Convention and all international law, they continue to be held without charges.

When the rhetoric of rights and responsibility is directed at the Third World, it may be right to remember, say, these sons of Tipton in the English Midlands, and hundreds of others, Terrorists or Taliban, reckless adventurers or the unluckiest of innocents, Guantanamo Bay raises serious concerns about their future, their health, the future of international law and health of the Western concept of justice-for-all.


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[Xanith]

I stopped reading at "...are presently incarcerated in the legal black hole, that American-run Gulag, called Guantanamo Bay.

Maybe the Times of India should run an expose on the treatment of prisoners by Indian Security Forces inside Kashmir. Then they could get the dirt on the real Human Rights Violations happening in their own country.

X

[DeadEyes]

It is disturbing that 13yo kids are being detained.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Xanith
I stopped reading at "...are presently incarcerated in the legal black hole, that American-run Gulag, called Guantanamo Bay.

Maybe the Times of India should run an expose on the treatment of prisoners by Indian Security Forces inside Kashmir. Then they could get the dirt on the real Human Rights Violations happening in their own country.

X

tsk, tsk, hurts, doesn't it? :)

It's not very diplomatic to try to turn your attention to other matters because you can't answer the one at hand. Doesn't work always :)

.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
It is disturbing that 13yo kids are being detained.

That, and almost all of them are being detained without any formal charges...

But don't expect any replies or clarifications or justifications on that. Because it's the US government's ploy to detract attention from such issues. They did it with Guantanamo Bay by invading Iraq. And they might probably attack Syria so nobody questions them about Iraq. And then maybe Iran, when Syria becomes a problematic issue ... They are not even as honest as to admit it's there.

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[venerable bede]

Any person who accepts British Citizenship then proceeds to act like complete Twatolas deserve everything they get.

I am sick to death of these Islamic Turdies using our Citizenship like a Haloween mask. Put it on when you want the natives to pay you and your family benefits then take it off to spit in our faces.

If you want America could send all the so called Brits back to our country. I am sure they and there families will have a nice welcome waiting for them.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by honeybee
tsk, tsk, hurts, doesn't it? :)

It's not very diplomatic to try to turn your attention to other matters because you can't answer the one at hand. Doesn't work always :)

.
Its not like they are being tortured and murdered like the Indian Forces have done to their prisoners inside of Kashmir.

The reason why no one is saying anything is because who really cares about a bunch of criminals and terrorists that would just assume kill themselves and thousands of other innocent people at the drop of a hat.

Again I find it funny that you care about what the US does to their criminals and terrorists when India in the past has brutally tortured and murdered people they have suspected of being terrorists. That you are so outraged at the US that they are simply holding people without being charged when your own government has tortured and killed their suspected terrorists inside of Kashmir. Where is your little India Times story about that?

X

[Ex-FB]

It is a very venomous and hatred filled article, (Gulag etc.), and there are many more even handed articles out there which I suppose would have suited the purposes of this discussion better.

The basic facts are:

-There are lots of nationals of many countries being held there against the Geneva convention.
-Most (if not all) do not have legal council.
-There are still three children being held (there were more, but in the 2 years they have been held, many have now grown up past 16... therefore no longer legally children).
-Conditions are not as bad as most prison camps
-Still conditions are not great either with 25 attempted suicides recently, no contact with family or lawyers and no sign of ever being released.
- Most Afghani's are held as prisoners of war. If the war has been declared over, then they must be released (after all, these are not terrorist, they're people who were defending their homeland from invasion - no matter how you might want to spin it).


As for the Europeans, as far as I'm concerned the only reason they should be treated as special cases is that they should be done for murder/attempted murder of US troops. I have sympathy for the Afghani's (as stated they are defending their country from an invading force), but *** is a British guy doing in there shooting at American troops. He's either committing murder or he is trying to commit murder and I believe he should be tried as such.

In short, let the Afghani's go home to their families, try all the others for murder/attempted murder.

[hellswraith]

Here is my thoughts on the whole issue:
http://www.wowpage.com/rthumor/unclesam.jpg

[hellswraith]

Oh ya, and until every other country in the world even comes close to the humanity we (the US) offer our captives, I officially tell you to screw off if you are attacking our ways of treating prisoners.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'm an American, and greatly disturbed by what's happening down in Cuba. We are now detaining people indefinitely with no hope of resolution for their cases. They will remain in limbo forever, never being let out, yet never being tried for any crime...oh wait, we've been doing that for years, it just doesn't make the press. That's actually standard operating procedure for some classes of illegal immigrants. We can't send them home, but we can't release them onto the steets either. Therefore, they remain in jails with no realistic hope of release.

For those who argue how humane our prisons are, would you like to be in one for the rest of your life? Perhaps you feel that you won't be in that situation simply because you haven't committed a crime. However, you can't prove that you haven't committed a crime.

Our system relies on innocent until proven guilty, as well as access to legal representation and the writ of habeas corpus. All three of those are suspended, not just for Afghanis, but also for any American citizen designated by the government as being an enemy combatant.

They may have used such power correctly and in moderation so far, but why should we expect that they will always? Many people, myself included, feel that they have used this power neither correctly nor in moderation against somebody (who's name I can't spell, something like Jose Pedia).

I can't continue...will you be next, or will this administration lock up the liberals first. See you in a nice humane American jail.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by hellswraith
Oh ya, and until every other country in the world even comes close to the humanity we (the US) offer our captives, I officially tell you to screw off if you are attacking our ways of treating prisoners.

Interesting view you have on the world there HellsWraith. Are you saying that we should not hold ourselves to a higher standard than the lowest common denominator of the human race?

So, until everyone in the world stops committing a crime, it's okay for me to go out and commit a crime?

So, until everyone in the world agrees to the Geneva conventions, you don't feel that Western countries should abide by them?

I can see you are obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights. ;)

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
It is disturbing that 13yo kids are being detained.

More or less disturbing than 13 year olds running around with rocket launchers, gernades and a fully automatic rifle?

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
More or less disturbing than 13 year olds running around with rocket launchers, gernades and a fully automatic rifle?

Also disturbing, but imprisoning these kids away from their families without legal council is not the answer. At what stage does it become up to us to decide to discard the Geneva convention as an inconvenience? As far as I am aware, no effort is being made to re-integrate these kids back into their society and/or to give them a normal childhood. As Afghani children, they are being held illegally by the US government.

I realise that Analogies never really work in these situations, but I'll throw caution to the wind and try one ;)

Say a Canadian gets shot by three kids in New York. The Canadian government comes down and takes the kids back to Canada and holds them indefinetly without a trial against the wishes of the US government. Wouldn't you feel that this was a bit wrong. The Canadian government could argue that they are protecting the kids from a life of crime and gangs. They could argue that they attacked a Canadian citizen. But the bottom line is they are holding a US child against his wishes.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Ex-FB

Say a Canadian gets shot by three kids in New York. The Canadian government comes down and takes the kids back to Canada and holds them indefinetly without a trial against the wishes of the US government. Wouldn't you feel that this was a bit wrong. The Canadian government could argue that they are protecting the kids from a life of crime and gangs. They could argue that they attacked a Canadian citizen. But the bottom line is they are holding a US child against his wishes.

Yes that would be wrong.

Of course it wouldn’t be if the US and Canada were still engaged in a war and those children were also linked to terrorist groups plotting to kill Canadian citizens. Then in my opinion it would be perfectly legal for Canada to hold them as while the conflict was going on there was still a threat to Canadian soldiers and Canadian citizens.

Also if Canada wanted to keep 3 murderers and pay for their food and such and hold them I think it would be fine. Maybe we should send all of our murderers to other countries for them to hold so we don’t have to pay for them. Sounds like a good idea. Kinda like what the British did with Australia and the Spanish did with Florida :)

X

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Xanith
Its not like they are being tortured and murdered like the Indian Forces have done to their prisoners inside of Kashmir.

The reason why no one is saying anything is because who really cares about a bunch of criminals and terrorists that would just assume kill themselves and thousands of other innocent people at the drop of a hat.

Again I find it funny that you care about what the US does to their criminals and terrorists when India in the past has brutally tortured and murdered people they have suspected of being terrorists. That you are so outraged at the US that they are simply holding people without being charged when your own government has tortured and killed their suspected terrorists inside of Kashmir. Where is your little India Times story about that?

X

The Indian security forces are not torturing their prisoners too :) But you wouldn't believe that :(

I don't care, as a matter of fact, about the US prisoners, or whether they care a hoot about the Geneva convention, but I do care when the US government cites all the laws and regulations it can to criticize another nation, destroy and take it over, and then breaks those same rules and conventions when it comes to its own security :) That's called Double-standards, or maybe we should call it "Bush-talk"...

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[kleinma]

Originally posted by honeybee
The Indian security forces are not torturing their prisoners too :) But you wouldn't believe that :(

.

how do you know?

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Ex-FB

Say a Canadian gets shot by three kids in New York. The Canadian government comes down and takes the kids back to Canada and holds them indefinetly without a trial against the wishes of the US government. Wouldn't you feel that this was a bit wrong. The Canadian government could argue that they are protecting the kids from a life of crime and gangs. They could argue that they attacked a Canadian citizen. But the bottom line is they are holding a US child against his wishes.

I'd tell Canada to send him back to the states so we can strap his worthless arse to an electric chair and pump enough juice into him to make his eyeballs pop out of his skull. If the canadian legal system wasnt filled with a bunch of pusses and actually killed their murderers then I'd let canada keep him. Either way the piece of crap dosn't deserve to live and if he must live it better be in a cage. It is all fine and good to say awwwhhhh pooorr child. News Flash, He is not a child any more. He is an animal with a thirst for blood. That my friend is more like a rabid dog than a young human being. You know what you have to do to a rabid dog to keep it from spreading his disease and killing others dont you?

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
I'd tell Canada to send him back to the states so we can strap his worthless arse to an electric chair and pump enough juice into him to make his eyeballs pop out of his skull. If the canadian legal system wasnt filled with a bunch of pusses and actually killed their murderers then I'd let canada keep him. Either way the piece of crap dosn't deserve to live and if he must live it better be in a cage. It is all fine and good to say awwwhhhh pooorr child. News Flash, He is not a child any more. He is an animal with a thirst for blood. That my friend is more like a rabid dog than a young human being. You know what you have to do to a rabid dog to keep it from spreading his disease and killing others dont you?

So are you saying that all POW's should be killed?

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by Xanith
.........
Of course it wouldn’t be if the US and Canada were still engaged in a war and those children were also linked to terrorist groups plotting to kill Canadian citizens. ........

The folks in Guantanamo bay are Prisoners of War, not terrorists. If you attack a country and someone defends it, then that is not a terrorist act, no matter how much your news media may over use the term.

Maybe you think the minute men were terrorists?

[kleinma]

they were defending their terrorist group.. not the country of afghanistan...

[kleinma]

just to remind all you people what these F(_)CKERS did

http://www.nodo50.org/csca/agenda2001/ny_11-09-01/wtc.jpg

aww are the poor POWs not getting enough to eat??? gee that is too bad... what about the american children that dont have enough to eat because their mom or dad didnt come home from work on september 11th??

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
So are you saying that all POW's should be killed?

Of course not. These are not POWs, these are criminals who were in Afghanastan being brainwashed and trained to kill YOU becauase you are not a devout Muslim. These people are not soldiers. The majority of them are not even afghani. They are mindless killers who need to be exterminated before they can breed and have baby mindless killers. Should they be get a trial. Yes. Should it be international court. No, It should be the family members of the thousands of people who died In NYC, Washington DC, and Clarion Pennsylvania as the Judge Jury and executioner. There is not a death horrible enough for these worthless maggots. It makes me want to vomit that I am paying taxes to keep them alive.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by kleinma
how do you know?

I believe I live in India, not you or Xanith ;)


About the finger, I think, and I thank, there are enough Americans and other European (including British ones, who will please pardon me for this slip ;) ) here who think there's something wrong. Maybe after all the world is not going to end so soon.

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[kleinma]

Originally posted by honeybee
I believe I live in India, not you or Xanith ;)

.

hahahaha please stop.. ouch that made me laugh so much it hurt...

ok so you live there so you know what is going on inside your government and whether or not prisoners are being tortured...

your comments just show everyone what a fool you are

[plenderj]

Hang on, so what if prisoners are being tortured or are being denied their human rights in India ?
So because its happening there, its okay for it to be happening in the US ?

You seem to pick and choose as to what aspects of morality you want to uphold.
On the one hand, you're saying that you got rid of Saddam because it was the moral thing to do because he was killing his citizens. Right, so yes it was the moral thing to do - to remove him from power.

But at the same time you are holding hundreds upon hundreds of inmates in that camp - many of whom have no charges against them.
And your government invents terms such as "illegal combattant" to justify that what they're doing is okay.

This is just picking and choosing.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by kleinma
just to remind all you people what these F(_)CKERS did

http://www.nodo50.org/csca/agenda2001/ny_11-09-01/wtc.jpg

aww are the poor POWs not getting enough to eat??? gee that is too bad... what about the american children that dont have enough to eat because their mom or dad didnt come home from work on september 11th??

Alas, this is the problem with your argument. Someone hurts you, so you want to hurt someone else. What did some 13 year old kid ever do to the US? Why should they suffer for someone elses actions? They were defending their country from invaders. Simple. No amount of spin you can put on it will make them a terrorist. Trying to evoke images of 11th September is a total red herring, are you so obssessed with your grief and your hatred for those who committed the act, that you cannot see how others are being sucked up into the maelstrom?

I don't care if the lad was standing outside Osama Bin Ladens cave weilding a gun. He's been told by someone that the US are invading his country. He's been given a gun to shoot the invaders. He is not a terrorist (the boy that is).

By your logic, any lawyer who defends a rapist is also a rapist......

Besides, many of theose being held are Taliban regulars who were fighting in Kabul etc..... so the whole terrorist thing doesn't really pan out does it?

[Shaggy Hiker]

I agree, what we're doing is just plain wrong. The motivation is vengeance or fear or dominance, but it is still wrong. If we are so strong, why don't we show it by letting this strong system work the way it is supposed to, rather than throwing it overboard whenever faced with some enemy.

[plenderj]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Of course not. These are not POWs, these are criminals who were in Afghanastan being brainwashed and trained to kill YOU becauase you are not a devout Muslim. These people are not soldiers. The majority of them are not even afghani. They are mindless killers who need to be exterminated before they can breed and have baby mindless killers. Should they be get a trial. Yes. Should it be international court. No, It should be the family members of the thousands of people who died In NYC, Washington DC, and Clarion Pennsylvania as the Judge Jury and executioner. There is not a death horrible enough for these worthless maggots. It makes me want to vomit that I am paying taxes to keep them alive.

Right, exactly how many of the people held in the camp came to the US to kill Americans ?
Um... none.

They were recruited to help defend against the American attacks.
That is how the US citizen ended up in the Taliban - he was simply recruited to help defend the country.

So why should they be treated any different ?
Just because they fight for a cause you don't agree with ?


And they don't kill people just because they're not devout muslims.
There are many places a lot closer they could have done that.
They targetted the US. They didn't target freedom or democracy or any other drug induced spin the US goverment puts on it.
They targetted your country. Simple as that.

And yes they killed civilians. But civilians die all the time.
Bear in mind, that later in the day the building would have been full of people.

Something no-one has ever asked, is why didn't they use later flights.
If they just wanted to kill civilians, there are far easier ways to do it.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Of course not. These are not POWs, these are criminals who were in Afghanastan being brainwashed and trained to kill YOU becauase you are not a devout Muslim. These people are not soldiers. The majority of them are not even afghani. They are mindless killers who need to be exterminated before they can breed and have baby mindless killers. Should they be get a trial. Yes. Should it be international court. No, It should be the family members of the thousands of people who died In NYC, Washington DC, and Clarion Pennsylvania as the Judge Jury and executioner. There is not a death horrible enough for these worthless maggots. It makes me want to vomit that I am paying taxes to keep them alive.

I truely, honestly hope that this is not the way you really feel. If it is, then I hope you are in a minority in the US. Why should you expect to be treated fairly by a legal system when you are quite happy to see others handed over to a lynch mob.

Maybe you should read up on some of the cases.

Most are there because the taliban has a conscription policy that you can et out of if you pay $30. These guys didn't have the cash.

Another guy was "arressted" by Northern Alliance members, because he refused to hand over his car to one of them.... terrorists???

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
Alas, this is the problem with your argument. Someone hurts you, so you want to hurt someone else. What did some 13 year old kid ever do to the US?

He made the mistake of following a madman on a jihad against the United States


Why should they suffer for someone elses actions? They were defending their country from invaders. Simple. No amount of spin you can put on it will make them a terrorist. Trying to evoke images of 11th September is a total red herring, are you so obssessed with your grief and your hatred for those who committed the act, that you cannot see how others are being sucked up into the maelstrom?

The taliban refused after multiple requests to turn over Bin Laden. The allowed him to use their country as a training ground with full knowledge of the type of schools he was running. Tough Sheit for the Taliban. They fooked with the wrong people. Call it Macho call it whatever your little peace loving sissy can't we all get along Idealistic heart wants to. Here is a one way ticket out of fantasy land, bottom line It is not a good Idea to kill 3,000+ americans in their own back yard. You and everyone around you are most likley going to get your arses bombed into kingdome come for it. Don't Believe me? Ask Japan. Is it right? Of course not, if we live in the perfect little imaginary wourld that you live in. The reason that The US has generally been able to have an open society with loose borders is because the other maggots on the plantet were scared to death to attack us. Someone pulled a fast one on us and they are finding out exactly why no one should want to attack us.


I don't care if the lad was standing outside Osama Bin Ladens cave weilding a gun. He's been told by someone that the US are invading his country. He's been given a gun to shoot the invaders. He is not a terrorist (the boy that is).


Why don't you go and visit that 13 year old sweetheart patriotic kid. I guarentee that little sonovabiatch tries to rip your throat out in 10 seconds.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
He made the mistake of following a madman on a jihad against the United States


The taliban refused after multiple requests to turn over Bin Laden. The allowed him to use their country as a training ground with full knowledge of the type of schools he was running. Tough Sheit for the Taliban. They fooked with the wrong people. Call it Macho call it whatever your little peace loving sissy can't we all get along Idealistic heart wants to. Here is a one way ticket out of fantasy land, bottom line It is not a good Idea to kill 3,000+ americans in their own back yard. You and everyone around you are most likley going to get your arses bombed into kingdome come for it. Don't Believe me? Ask Japan. Is it right? Of course not, if we live in the perfect little imaginary wourld that you live in. The reason that The US has generally been able to have an open society with loose borders is because the other maggots on the plantet were scared to death to attack us. Someone pulled a fast one on us and they are finding out exactly why no one should want to attack us.



Why don't you go and visit that 13 year old sweetheart patriotic kid. I guarentee that little sonovabiatch tries to rip your throat out in 10 seconds.

I am sadly dissapointed by you apparent lack of ability to carry on a conversation about this without it degenrating into insults. I had expected better of you.

Please feel free to re-join the conversation when you grow up a little bit.

Thank you.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
I truely, honestly hope that this is not the way you really feel. If it is, then I hope you are in a minority in the US. Why should you expect to be treated fairly by a legal system when you are quite happy to see others handed over to a lynch mob.


No that is not how I truly feel. They should have shot them on the spot in Afghanastan instead of making me help pay to fly them to a beachfront high security resort(that I am also paying for).

[plenderj]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
No that is not how I truly feel. They should have shot them on the spot in Afghanastan instead of making me help pay to fly them to a beachfront high security resort(that I am also paying for).

Yet you get up in arms at the slightest idea that Iraq could have executed US soldiers.
Very choosy with your human rights aren't you ?

[Xanith]

Originally posted by plenderj
Hang on, so what if prisoners are being tortured or are being denied their human rights in India ?
So because its happening there, its okay for it to be happening in the US ?

You seem to pick and choose as to what aspects of morality you want to uphold.
On the one hand, you're saying that you got rid of Saddam because it was the moral thing to do because he was killing his citizens. Right, so yes it was the moral thing to do - to remove him from power.

But at the same time you are holding hundreds upon hundreds of inmates in that camp - many of whom have no charges against them.
And your government invents terms such as "illegal combattant" to justify that what they're doing is okay.

This is just picking and choosing.
The people being held in Cuba are not being tortured nor are they POW's so the Geneva Conventions do not apply. They are nothing but criminals and terrorists.

X

[plenderj]

Originally posted by Xanith
The people being held in Cuba are not being tortured nor are they POW's so the Geneva Conventions do not apply. They are nothing but criminals and terrorists.

X

Sensory deprovation and leaving them in tin shacks in the heat all day.
Okay, lets forget about that.

And why aren't they POWs ?
Were they not taken prisoner while they were fighting for an army defending their country ?
Why should the US get to choose who's a POW and who isn't ?

And lets pretend they're not POWs.
If they are indeed criminals, then they should have the same rights as any other criminal.
Not that they did anything wrong - all they did was defend their country.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by plenderj
Yet you get up in arms at the slightest idea that Iraq could have executed US soldiers.
Very choosy with your human rights aren't you ?
The criminals and terrorists being held in Cuba are not POW's. The US hasn't executed any of them as far as I know either. But its recognized by all nations that executing POW's is wrong.

Why so concerned about these terrorists and criminals anyway? You sure pick some strange battles, sticking up for Saddam the mass murdering dictator and support for terrorists and criminals. Interesting.

X

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
I am sadly dissapointed by you apparent lack of ability to carry on a conversation about this without it degenrating into insults. I had expected better of you.

Please feel free to re-join the conversation when you grow up a little bit.

Thank you.

When I grow Up? You are living in an Idealistic world. Believe me I wish things could be like you imagine them to be but they are not like that. People kill each other. People rob steal lie cheat and a loaded assortment of other BS. If you want to maintain an Open free society you have to keep the nutballs in the world in line. The only effective way to do that is with money or by force. Otherwise welcome "Big Brother" and I'm sure you do not want that.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by plenderj
Sensory deprovation and leaving them in tin shacks in the heat all day.
Okay, lets forget about that.

And why aren't they POWs ?
Were they not taken prisoner while they were fighting for an army defending their country ?
Why should the US get to choose who's a POW and who isn't ?

And lets pretend they're not POWs.
If they are indeed criminals, then they should have the same rights as any other criminal.
Not that they did anything wrong - all they did was defend their country.
They didn't have a uniform when they were captured. Most were not even native Afghani citizens they were in the country illegally. There are strict rules governing POW's under the Geneva Conventions and these people captured in Afghanistan do not fit under these conventions.

And they are considered aliens being held outside US lands and are not protected under the US Constitution as decided by US courts. Unless the Supreme Court over-turns this ruling things will stay as they are.

X

[Ex-FB]

Just to clarify. I for one have never stuck up for Saddam or terrorists. This is part of the problem with the discussions on this site. Many posters have the view that if you are not with us, you are against us, and unwilling to see that there could actually be more than two different points of view. To simplify such complex situations does not allow us to actually discuss them clearly.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by plenderj
Yet you get up in arms at the slightest idea that Iraq could have executed US soldiers.
Very choosy with your human rights aren't you ?

When Did I get up in arms about that? Any way, I do not consider those animals "Human".

[Ex-FB]

Here's an article from the Times...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,385661,00.html

i will quote the relevant sections if you don't have time to read the whole thing.


.....
In the summer of 2001, Khan, 28, was pining for his young Afghan bride, who had gone to Mazar-e-Sharif in northern Afghanistan to show off the couple's new baby to relatives. So Khan set off after them, traveling for a week by hitching rides on buses and trucks that were headed over icy mountain ranges. But soon after he arrived, the war swept him away. After the U.S.-backed Northern Alliance captured Mazar-e-Sharif from the Taliban, his parents heard nothing from him. "We were sure he'd been killed," says Azeem. Khan was a Pashtun, and the Uzbek conquerors of the city hated Pashtuns.

But the Uzbeks didn't shoot Khan. They scored points with their American overlords by turning him over as a suspected al-Qaeda terrorist. "Issa isn't a Taliban or al-Qaeda," says his dad. "He's a doctor who maybe likes to smoke too much hashish and laze around."

Like all detainees, Khan was shorn of his beard, stripped, forced into a bright orange jump suit, clapped into earmuffs so he couldn't hear and black goggles that obscured his eyesight. In chains, he was led onto a plane for the longest, strangest trip of his life — to Guantanamo Bay.

"Don't worry about me," Khan later wrote, trying to cheer up his family. "I'm happy. I've even given up smoking." According to the letter, like all Guantanamo inmates he lives in a 6.8-by-8 feet cell with a copy of the Koran for company. For 30 minutes every week, he is allowed out of this cage to exercise with his feet shackled. He and all other so-called "enemy combatants" were recently moved from Camp X-Ray to the larger Camp Delta several miles away, where the army is building an extra 204 cells for future captives.

Most of Guantanamo's 598 detainees are indeed al-Qaeda terrorists. But, as U.S. authorities are finally conceding, the lovelorn Khan — and perhaps as many as 100 other captives — simply aren't. They were grabbed by mistake in the chaos of battle. As Rumsfeld said last week: "If you don't want them for intelligence, and you don't want them for law enforcement ... then let's be rid of them."

Mixed in with the genuine terrorists are a 16-year old boy, two 90-year old Afghans ("They look 110," remarked one visitor), a Sudanese TV cameraman from the al-Jazeera network, and scores of hapless Pakistani youths who heeded the cry of jihad but found themselves abandoned and robbed on the battlefield by their fleeing Taliban brethren. Others were packed off to Guantanamo because they failed to pay extortion money to Kandahar city's secret police chief — supposedly a U.S. ally — who then denounced them as bin Laden henchmen.

Guantanamo has, in fact, turned out to be a windfall for America's Afghan confederates. According to Pakistani detainees, the U.S. military paid the Northern Alliance $5,000 for each captive who confessed to being a Taliban and $20,000 for each purported al-Qaeda fighter. With that incentive, the prisoners claim the allied commanders grabbed any Pakistani wandering dazed around the battlefield, then extracted confessions by force.
...........

And it is not only the Pakistani government that feels an injustice has been done: Kuwait is demanding the U.S. free 12 of its citizens, whom it claims were relief workers in Afghanistan.

.............


Mmmmm. Offering the Northern Alliance $20,000 for each Al-Quadia fighter they find.... that's a great idea :rolleyes:

So, to start with, why not realease the 100 or so folk that appear to be totally innocent, and put the rest up for trial and then do something about it.

If you find people who really are terrorists (and I have no doubt that a number of them are), then punish the guilty. I have no problem with that. But it annoys me that the US government bandies terms around like "freeing the people of Iraq" or "freeing the people of Afghanistan" when it suits them, and then holds them like any other two-bit dictatorship.

I find it embaressing that a number of the Americans on this site do not hold even the slightest bit of pride in their own country. You seem quite happy for your country's good name to be dragged down into the mud by the actions (or inactions) of your politicians. Thank god I live in a free country.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
Just to clarify. I for one have never stuck up for Saddam or terrorists. This is part of the problem with the discussions on this site. Many posters have the view that if you are not with us, you are against us, and unwilling to see that there could actually be more than two different points of view. To simplify such complex situations does not allow us to actually discuss them clearly.
Yes I have often found it irritating that most people tend to simplify most arguments down to the point when they don’t even consider most of the facts that surround an issue. Most people just do mindless finger pointing without looking into the facts surrounding an issue to find out why.

I also think there are a lot of people who post here do so in such an inflammatory manner as to elicit a similar response. When you call into question someone's country and patriotism and call them Imperialists and Thugs it tends to create an atmosphere of hostility.

I am always open to debate when its not laced with such language as to inflame and distort the truth. Just stating the facts in a matter is much better then some emotional anti-"whomever" rhetoric when trying to make a point.

X

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by Xanith
Yes I have often found it irritating that most people tend to simplify most arguments down to the point when they don’t even consider most of the facts that surround an issue. Most people just do mindless finger pointing without looking into the facts surrounding an issue to find out why.

I also think there are a lot of people who post here do so in such an inflammatory manner as to elicit a similar response. When you call into question someone's country and patriotism and call them Imperialists and Thugs it tends to create an atmosphere of hostility.

I am always open to debate when its not laced with such language as to inflame and distort the truth. Just stating the facts in a matter is much better then some emotional anti-"whomever" rhetoric when trying to make a point.

X

Agreed! I quite enjoy the discussions here, as many people do have valid points to make from all perspectives.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
Here's an article from the Times...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,385661,00.html

i will quote the relevant sections if you don't have time to read the whole thing.



Mmmmm. Offering the Northern Alliance $20,000 for each Al-Quadia fighter they find.... that's a great idea :rolleyes:

So, to start with, why not realease the 100 or so folk that appear to be totally innocent, and put the rest up for trial and then do something about it.

If you find people who really are terrorists (and I have no doubt that a number of them are), then punish the guilty. I have no problem with that. But it annoys me that the US government bandies terms around like "freeing the people of Iraq" or "freeing the people of Afghanistan" when it suits them, and then holds them like any other two-bit dictatorship.

I find it embaressing that a number of the Americans on this site do not hold even the slightest bit of pride in their own country. You seem quite happy for your country's good name to be dragged down into the mud by the actions (or inactions) of your politicians. Thank god I live in a free country.
This is actually from Time Magazine.

And I’m sure when and if this person is proven to not be linked with any terrorist groups this person will be released. The criminal justice system isn't perfect and sometimes innocent people are held in prison and even executed. Such is the price to be paid for trying to make a safer society for all. I think it is worth the small amount of mistakes made in keeping the other 99.9% of the criminals off the street.

Also this is provided this story is true. Until it is proven its one persons word against another.

X

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by Xanith
This is actually from Time Magazine.


;) Sorry, mental burp.

Originally posted by Xanith
And I’m sure when and if this person is proven to not be linked with any terrorist groups this person will be released.
Aha - But this is the problem. They're not. They're just being held indefintely without trial or legal representation.

Originally posted by Xanith
The criminal justice system isn't perfect and sometimes innocent people are held in prison and even executed. Such is the price to be paid for trying to make a safer society for all. I think it is worth the small amount of mistakes made in keeping the other 99.9% of the criminals off the street.
Very True, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to make it better. Why should we pat ourselves on the back for our high moral standards when the rest of the world see's us as hypocrits.

Originally posted by Xanith
Also this is provided this story is true. Until it is proven its one persons word against another.

X
Again, very true. I tried to find as reliable a source as I could that wouldn't get shouted down as being "anti-American" by certain members, but there are numerous articles on the web about various people being handed over (usually by the Northern Alliance) just because they want his car etc. It seemed to go along the lines of the NA pick up some guy, march him to the nearest US troops, swear blind that he's Taliban or Al-Quadia, collect their cash reward and go off to find some other happless fool.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
I find it embaressing that a number of the Americans on this site do not hold even the slightest bit of pride in their own country. You seem quite happy for your country's good name to be dragged down into the mud by the actions (or inactions) of your politicians.

Politicians are what they are. Can't do anything about it until election time regardless. The only people I see dragging my countrys name through the mud are people like you. Funny no one ever heard a peep out of you guys until some lunatics decided to turn Jets into missles and prooved that the US was vunerable to attack. Guess what you are witnessing first hand why it is not wise to tangle with the US. you are learning why the US has been able to remain a free country since it's birth. you are witnessing why there has only been one other attack on Americans on American soil. It is necessary to preserve our way of life. The same way of life that you enjoy. I personally would like to remain free and not have my every move screened. You want the lifestyle but don't have the guts to knock the crap out of any one who tries to take it from you.

Thank god I live in a free country.
Your welcome

[MasterBlaster]

PS. Yeah here is how fooking safe you are and how much these people love you for being a fair person.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/906318.asp?0cv=CB10

I wonder if it is stamped made in Iraq by chance.:mad:

[hellswraith]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
Interesting view you have on the world there HellsWraith. Are you saying that we should not hold ourselves to a higher standard than the lowest common denominator of the human race?

So, until everyone in the world stops committing a crime, it's okay for me to go out and commit a crime?

So, until everyone in the world agrees to the Geneva conventions, you don't feel that Western countries should abide by them?

I can see you are obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights. ;)
We do hold ourselves to higher standards. The US population will assure that most of the time. I agree though that sometimes things slip through the cracks.
I will argue that our standards are at the top or pretty close to in the human rights department.

To say that I am obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights is just a cheap shot. I am in the US Air Force and have been for the last nine years. I am willing to do things for this country if asked to that will ensure our safety. I am VERY American, Very Democratic, and Very human rights.

What I am not is a person that will go boo hoo when someone is locked up for fighting against us to protect a terrorist group. These people were not fighting us to defend their country, they knew what they were doing. I don't care if they are 13 or not, they still took up arms against us for the sole reason of hate. Sorry, but I don't want that 13 year old to grow up to be a wacko mini Osama and plan another attack that kills me or my kids.

Maybe I am a little extreme, but I would hold any American to the same standards. If an American truly hated the US and took up arms to fight it, they should be locked away too. We don't need those types of people around.

Just my 2 cents....I never said I am completely right though....

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by hellswraith

To say that I am obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights is just a cheap shot. I am in the US Air Force and have been for the last nine years. I am willing to do things for this country if asked to that will ensure our safety. I am VERY American, Very Democratic, and Very human rights.

Sorry. I didn't mean to insult you, it was actually intended as a joke based on all the "you're not with us therefore your anti-American" comments that keep flying around. (Hence the little smiley).

I would argue with your last bit though. You only seem pro-Human rights if that person is an American citizen.

What would you suggest that Afghani's should have done when their country was attacked. Wouldn't you consider them cowards for not fighting for it. Remember these people are fed news by their governments, they don't have the luxury of world media that we take for granted. So if the government says that the US are invading so that they can eat your babies, you'll believe that (as an Afghani conscript). I doubt if many of them had a clue who Osama Bin Laden was..... besides, what about all the guys being turned in by the Northern Alliance for the cash reward, or so they can steal their property. Hardly a just system.

[hellswraith]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
Sorry. I didn't mean to insult you, it was actually intended as a joke based on all the "you're not with us therefore your anti-American" comments that keep flying around. (Hence the little smiley).

I would argue with your last bit though. You only seem pro-Human rights if that person is an American citizen.

What would you suggest that Afghani's should have done when their country was attacked. Wouldn't you consider them cowards for not fighting for it. Remember these people are fed news by their governments, they don't have the luxury of world media that we take for granted. So if the government says that the US are invading so that they can eat your babies, you'll believe that (as an Afghani conscript). I doubt if many of them had a clue who Osama Bin Laden was..... besides, what about all the guys being turned in by the Northern Alliance for the cash reward, or so they can steal their property. Hardly a just system.

Re-read what I said, I said if an American shares the same hate for the US as a foreigner, and has proven that that hate can cause unneeded damage to our country, I say screw them also. I have no biases towards our people or any other people. They are all the same to me. If the person hates the US, and plans and prepares for performing terristic acts against this country, screw em. That was what I am saying.

As far as innocent Afgani's getting caught up in this 'war on terror' thing, sure, it might happen. Just like our justice system puts some people behind bars that didn't actually commit the crime they were accused of, we will also make mistakes in a conflict such as the one we are talking about.

Also, common sense would tell me if I was an Afgani citizen that if the US was bombing caves and terrorist camps, maybe it wasn't a war on our country, but a war on the tali-ban and I should stay away. Those people are not as stupid as you make them out to be. I don't care if they are being force fed crap on their TV's or radio's, they have eyes, and they can see what is really happening.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by hellswraith

Also, common sense would tell me if I was an Afgani citizen that if the US was bombing caves and terrorist camps, maybe it wasn't a war on our country, but a war on the tali-ban and I should stay away. Those people are not as stupid as you make them out to be. I don't care if they are being force fed crap on their TV's or radio's, they have eyes, and they can see what is really happening.

And how prey tell is the average Afghani farmer going to know that the US are just bombing caves and terrorist camps (apart from the fact that this statement is incorrect, how else do you think they took Kabul?) - how is an Afghani to know anything other than his country is being attacked.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by hellswraith
As far as innocent Afgani's getting caught up in this 'war on terror' thing, sure, it might happen. Just like our justice system puts some people behind bars that didn't actually commit the crime they were accused of, we will also make mistakes in a conflict such as the one we are talking about.

Agreed, but that I believe is the whole point of this thread. That a number of innocent people (including children) are being held by the US in Cuba - whilst their initial arrest is fair enough in war, it is the decent thing to do to send those who don't deserve to be there, home. It serves only to generate more hatred in the middle east - and it is something which is easily sorted. Look at the speed John Walker Lindh (or whatever his name was), got his day in court.

If the tables were reversed, I'm sure a number of people (including myself) would be up in arms about the injustice of it.

I'm a bit dissapointed that some of the members here are prepared to throw justice to the wind and condemn them all as guilty without a fair trial. How can you expect us to take the so called "war on terror" seriously, when it seems so poorly organised, and seems to be having the opposite effect (i.e. stirring up hatred).

What really worries me, is that there was a lesson to be learned in the whole Sept 11th attack (and I'm sure one of the simpletons will mis-quote me and twist those words around to say "You should have learned your lesson on Sept 11th" or some such... :rolleyes: ), and a number of people here seem oblivious to opening their minds to those events, and are compounding the problem.

I've lived through the violence in Ireland. I hate the terrorists on both sides, but in order for the country to move forward and get out of the cycle of tit for tat killing the only way is for one (preferably both) sides to try to break the cycle. Much as it irks/annoys/frustrates me, I have to conceed that both sides do have valid grievences and if the next generation is to have any hope of peace (it will never happen in mine, the hatred runs too deeply) then steps have to be taken to address those grievences and try to find some middle ground.

Now, lets zip around the world to America. Al-Quaida were able to recruit terrorists to attack the US because they could show a number of greivences to their followers and "prove" to them that the US was a threat to their religion/country/way of life. These people didn't just wake up one day and decided to crash the planes, this was planned over months and these people never once swerved from their objective. Face it, they hated the US for some reason. We should be trying to find that reason and correct it. Instead Bush is creating thousands of new reasons daily. It isn't going to take much for some other physco with a greivence to drum up followers against the US in the middle east. We should be acting in an exemplary manner, much as it annoys us, so that we can be recognised as the moral force. Instead, we are projecting ourselves as racists.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by hellswraith
Just my 2 cents....I never said I am completely right though....

Nobody is 100% right. But the greatness lies in accepting that there are slipups and mistakes, not in pointing fingers at others whenever someone brings out your flaws. Please note that this remark is not personally directed at you.

Ex FB (SD, if I am right) you seem to be running out of usernames LOL Also whenever you criticize any US move, you automatically qualify for the pro-Saddam, pro-North Korea, pro-Taliban etc. club, according to a few members here ;)

Funny, a few days back, a member PMed me about an offensive remark I had made about the US politicians, and to show respect to his love for his country, I removed that remark from the said post. He then asked me to clarify a few other statements I had made, and I sent him two PMs explaining what I was saying by those remarks. I haven't heard back from him since. All the while people keep accusing you of name-calling and US-hating, but when you actually put forth a few points, you don't get any answer. I don't remember calling Xenith or anyone else who brought up the J&K issue an anti-Indian. By their standards they should be anti-India by now and I should be calling them names and shouting at them for that.

.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by honeybee

Ex FB (SD, if I am right) you seem to be running out of usernames LOL

Yip - Admins banned FuttBucker, and now they've changed my "Ex-FuttBucker" to Ex-FB, so I guess some anal retentive took offense at the name without realising that you have to actually have a bit of a crude mind in the first place to switch the letters around.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
Yip - Admins banned FuttBucker, and now they've changed my "Ex-FuttBucker" to Ex-FB, so I guess some anal retentive took offense at the name without realising that you have to actually have a bit of a crude mind in the first place to switch the letters around.

hmmm.... People who are blinded by rage often miss some simple points... Just thank them for not putting an I at the end ;)

.

[venerable bede]

BOMB MECCA

[venerable bede]

BOMB MECCA

[honeybee]

Originally posted by venerable bede
BOMB MECCA

How about :

Bomb New York. Bomb the WTC sites again!

for a change? :mad:

.

[Slow_Learner]

Originally posted by honeybee
Bomb New York. Bomb the WTC sites again!

All the while people keep accusing you of name-calling and US-hating, but when you actually put forth a few points, you don't get any answer. I don't remember calling Xenith or anyone else who brought up the J&K issue an anti-Indian. By their standards they should be anti-India by now and I should be calling them names and shouting at them for that.

Guess you're following your own advice eh. Don't be one of those finger pointers in the future.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Slow_Learner
Guess you're following your own advice eh. Don't be one of those finger pointers in the future.

If you were any slower, you would be going backwards ... I would like to use that quote from Draco Malfoy for you :rolleyes:

VB is a person who has used the Bomb Mecca message in almost every single post here. I don't see you talking so strongly about him ;) But on second thoughts, it's rare for an American to be rational nowadays ;)

.

[BodwadUK]

Vb actually means Mecca Bingo ;) ;) ;)

How do you shout on a text forum???? :confused: :confused: :D :D :D

[honeybee]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
Vb actually means Mecca Bingo ;) ;) ;)

How do you shout on a text forum???? :confused: :confused: :D :D :D

Using Bomb Mecca in every other post is still offensive. But that probably shows the general attitude of a common American citizen nowadays :rolleyes:

To shout on a text forum, you have to use CAPS letters.

.

[Slow_Learner]

//VB is a person who has used the Bomb Mecca message in almost every single post here. I don't see you talking so strongly about him

On the other hand, he's not the one whining about namecalling and meanness on the forums - that would be you. And of course it's wrong VB says that, just from him at least it isn't hypocritcal (poke poke)

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by honeybee
Funny, a few days back, a member PMed me about an offensive remark I had made about the US politicians, and to show respect to his love for his country, I removed that remark from the said post. He then asked me to clarify a few other statements I had made, and I sent him two PMs explaining what I was saying by those remarks. I haven't heard back from him since. All the while people keep accusing you of name-calling and US-hating, but when you actually put forth a few points, you don't get any answer. I don't remember calling Xenith or anyone else who brought up the J&K issue an anti-Indian. By their standards they should be anti-India by now and I should be calling them names and shouting at them for that.

.


U had called America nothing but a bunch of modern day looters. I PMed you and tall you that it is better to back up your posts with valid points rather than use rhetoric and sarcasm. I never mentioned anything politicians nor asked u to show respect for the love of my country. bull**** with a capital B

And some time back, someone called Indians ungreatful. You immediately pounced on him and demanded an appology (in public)

So honeybee, I hope you realized that you are nothing but a stupid 10-year old brat that can only shout "burn america" to the icecream man when he asks you to pay for the vanilla cone. Why don't you climb up to your roof in your diapers and fly a kite that has "i hate america and its foreign policy" written on it. Probably would catch the attention of the onlookers and you'd finally succeed in your mission in showing what a ****ed up retard you truly are.

Have a good day

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by honeybee
But that probably shows the general attitude of a common American citizen nowadays :rolleyes:
[/B]

edit: comments withdrawn

[BodwadUK]

Neither VB or me are American so i would check up your facts before jumping to conclusions. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


I have to agree with Ordinary Guy as well you are beggining to get a wee bit annoying. Try some VALID evidence once in a while and people may not be so hostile :D :D :D :D

[OrdinaryGuy]

looking at those typos... i must have had wee to much beer.. anyway honeybee, dont take my comments personally but do be offended.

*hiccup*

[venerable bede]

BOMB MECCA - it stinks (not the bigo hall of course)

[BodwadUK]

THERE GOES THE WATER BOMB


SPPPPLLLLOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!!

:p :p :p :p :p :p


Mecca is all clean now :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[venerable bede]

It sounds like a cool place to take a holiday.

Sun, sand, friendly natives. Hell......I might even lose a little weight. Where do I sign up?

[venerable bede]

Originally posted by Slow_Learner
//VB is a person who has used the Bomb Mecca message in almost every single post here. I don't see you talking so strongly about him

On the other hand, he's not the one whining about namecalling and meanness on the forums - that would be you. And of course it's wrong VB says that, just from him at least it isn't hypocritcal (poke poke)

Ow Ow

Stop poking me.

;)

[BodwadUK]

*Bodwad Kicks VB in Shins

Stop being a naughty boy!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Now Apologise for you statements ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[venerable bede]

I apologise.















BOMB MECCA

[WiKiDJeFF]

Have any of you guys read up on the Patriot Act or the new FCC ruling? These things seem to be right up your ally and would be sure to cause a few sparks.

[BodwadUK]

???