In which nation(s) would you.....

[KayJay]

...effect a regime change, as of today, presuming you have capacity to do so?

[Pc_Madness]

Probably only North Korea. Its the only country that is able to cause trouble.

[nishantp]

Pakistan is probably the largest terrorist haven today, but doing anything there would be extremely difficult, because it would likely start an all out war between pakistan and india.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by nishantp
Pakistan is probably the largest terrorist haven today, but doing anything there would be extremely difficult, because it would likely start an all out war between pakistan and india.
India's actions in Kashmir are likely to start a war. They are already responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people. The India security forces have already been sited for violations of the Geneva Convention for torturing and murdering civilians whom they suspect to be terrorists.

Pakistan is also responsible for the backing of terrorist groups that have killed innocent Indian civilians as well. Its only a matter of time before war breaks out again. This is probably one area of the world in which nukes might actually be exchanged.

India should get out of Kashmir. Maybe then at least the region can be stabilized.

X

[KayJay]

Originally posted by Xanith
....
India should get out of Kashmir. Maybe then at least the region can be stabilized...
X
India cannot get out of Kashmir for simple fact Kashmir is in India. :rolleyes: But then again, sovereignity no longer matter nowadays :rolleyes:

[Xanith]

Originally posted by KayJay
India cannot get out of Kashmir for simple fact Kashmir is in India. :rolleyes: But then again, sovereignity no longer matter nowadays :rolleyes:
Yeah but they don’t want to be a part of India. It’s largely Muslim and India is largely Hindu. That is in part why India has around 700,000 troops stationed in Kashmir to crush the freedom movement. India's security forces have raped, murdered, and tortured the people of Kashmir for some time. Over 80,000 people have died inside Kashmir over the last 10 years.

Indian Occupation Forces Human Rights Violations in Kashmir have been documented by organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Just search the web yourself to learn the truth of the violations against the Geneva Convention as well as basic human rights by the Indian government.

Kashmir's people either want to be free or part of Pakistan due to the large majority of the population being Muslim. However when Pakistan and India broke away from English rule in 1947 Kashmir's leader at that time (who was Hindu) chose to join India much to the displeasure of an overwhelming majority of the population of Kashmir.

For years India refused to hold a vote of the people in Kashmir called for by the UN so the people of Kashmir could decide their own fate. It’s quite obvious that Kashmir wanted to be free of India this is why India stayed in violation of UN resolutions for so many years.

India's occupation of Kashmir and subsequent brutality of its population goes unnoticed by most people. India should just let Kashmir go and let them have their independence or their right to join with Pakistan. Instead they routinely kill innocent civilians under the guise of fighting terrorism and brutalize the rest of the civilian population.

India should get out of Kashmir. It’s been the source of the wars between India and Pakistan and I see no end to it as long as India continues to occupy Kashmir. And with both countries now with nuclear weapons things can only get worse.

X

[KayJay]

Secession and Sedition is a crime against the nation, proponents of which will be dealt with as deemed fit by the Government PERIOD

Remember, the American Civil War? Oops! Apologies! You sure remember "American" and "War"! As for "Civil", it matters not, as that does not exist since the whole world is one Nation, its Capital City being where ever the C-In-C of the American Armed Forces chooses to spend the day (or the weekend)
.......
As regards Indo-Pak Nuclear Weapons, its for the good, by your own "standards standards". One bomb by India or Pakistan, the whole world will be safe for another half-a-century. You are so pround of establishing such a "Peace" from 1945, are you not? Why give a damn about the possibility of another pair of belligerent KayJay and Xanith in the Two Thousand and Fifty Fifth Year of our Lord?

[OrdinaryGuy]

If Kashmir is largely Muslim, that doesn't mean they want to be a part of Pakistan. And there is no such thing that Muslims are oppressed in India (which I largely hear). You got Muslim actors, sports stars, judges, chief ministers, etc.

As far as what the people in kashmir want, if they wanted to be a part of Pakistan, I'd support that. There were recent independent polls conducted by some British newspapers which I read about. It showed only 19% of the population wanted to join Pakistan. The majority wanted to stay with India while the remaining wanted an Independent state.

As far as human rights violations go, I agree, there might have been some. And whoever executed those should have their balls stapled to the ceiling. But, these violations are pretty damn old. Whatever happened was 2 decades ago. Kashmir has a government chosen by them now. They hate pakistan as much as any Indian does. I recently posted an article written by a Kashmiri woman, I don't know if you read that.

The day pakastan stops sending arms/people across the border, that is the day that place will see peace. Women and children are lined up by terrorists and shot. C'mon, these are out of the NY Times. If you have been reading about old human rights violations, you must be reading about these mass killings by terrorists. Recently, 24 priests were lined up and shot by terrorists. Don't tell me you missed that too? Its well know that pakastan and only pakastan is supporting them with arms and people. And they have the balls to do so because they are a so called "partner" in the war against terrorism. I wouldn't balme the US. But I feel that they must do more.

[OrdinaryGuy]

Another thing I hear alot is that India has the biggest military expenditure for a developing country. Only a brief look at history can tell you why it became necessary for India to do so

When India got indepedence in the 1940s, it was a poor country trying to feed its people and develop its economy. It was doing pretty well till the Cuban Missile crisis when India was attacked by china. Wave after wave of chineese infantry swept into Indian territiry. India had never cared about its defense. All it cared about that time was to feed its people and develop an economy. When they appealed for help, non really came to their aid. But fortunately for India, the Chineese withdrew as soon as the Cuban missile crisis was over.

By then, India got the signal that it had to build upon defenses if it had to live in its neighborhood. India only concentrated on conventional defenses by purchases military hardware from Britainn. But then another threat emerged. By the late 60s, pakastan was in the advanced stages of developing its nuclear bomb. India had no such program during that time. The US had a pro pakastan tilt in those days and thus Pakastan had nothing to worry about. Pakistan was also receiving huge aid grants by the US every year so they were able to easily finance all their secret programs. By the time India realized, it to was forced into rapid development of its N-BOMB to counter the pakastani threat. And even today, while pakastan maintains it would strike any country first, India has clearly stated that its N-BOMB is attached with a no first use tag.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by nishantp
Pakistan is probably the largest terrorist haven today, but doing anything there would be extremely difficult, because it would likely start an all out war between pakistan and india.

On the other hand, we shall welcome any US action against Pakistan on the basis of its terrorist operations. The only reason the US doesn't do so is because it acts as a restraint to India's development. And if India were to be free of Pakistani nusance, it would leave the US miles behind :rolleyes:

.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Xanith
India's actions in Kashmir are likely to start a war. They are already responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people. The India security forces have already been sited for violations of the Geneva Convention for torturing and murdering civilians whom they suspect to be terrorists.

Pakistan is also responsible for the backing of terrorist groups that have killed innocent Indian civilians as well. Its only a matter of time before war breaks out again. This is probably one area of the world in which nukes might actually be exchanged.

India should get out of Kashmir. Maybe then at least the region can be stabilized.

X

I think you didn't read about the Lashkar E Toyba commander's statement that elimination of all Hindus was their first priority. Or the fact that all these militant leaders are based in Pakistan.

But then I don't think you ever think on your own :)

.

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by honeybee
On the other hand, we shall welcome any US action against Pakistan on the basis of its terrorist operations. The only reason the US doesn't do so is because it acts as a restraint to India's development. And if India were to be free of Pakistani nusance, it would leave the US miles behind :rolleyes:

.

out of all the reasons, you chose one of the most ridiculous ones

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Xanith
Yeah but they don’t want to be a part of India. It’s largely Muslim and India is largely Hindu. That is in part why India has around 700,000 troops stationed in Kashmir to crush the freedom movement. India's security forces have raped, murdered, and tortured the people of Kashmir for some time. Over 80,000 people have died inside Kashmir over the last 10 years.

Indian Occupation Forces Human Rights Violations in Kashmir have been documented by organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Just search the web yourself to learn the truth of the violations against the Geneva Convention as well as basic human rights by the Indian government.

Kashmir's people either want to be free or part of Pakistan due to the large majority of the population being Muslim. However when Pakistan and India broke away from English rule in 1947 Kashmir's leader at that time (who was Hindu) chose to join India much to the displeasure of an overwhelming majority of the population of Kashmir.

For years India refused to hold a vote of the people in Kashmir called for by the UN so the people of Kashmir could decide their own fate. It’s quite obvious that Kashmir wanted to be free of India this is why India stayed in violation of UN resolutions for so many years.

India's occupation of Kashmir and subsequent brutality of its population goes unnoticed by most people. India should just let Kashmir go and let them have their independence or their right to join with Pakistan. Instead they routinely kill innocent civilians under the guise of fighting terrorism and brutalize the rest of the civilian population.

India should get out of Kashmir. It’s been the source of the wars between India and Pakistan and I see no end to it as long as India continues to occupy Kashmir. And with both countries now with nuclear weapons things can only get worse.

X

The US should pull out of all other "soverign" lands, before arrogant and ignorant fools like you talk about India leaving Kashmir. Israel should vacate the Palestine land, or the Golan Heights too. But that's an entirely different matter, isn't it?

Number of Muslims in J & K has never had anything to do with its inclusion in India. The Maharaja of Kashmir entered into an agreement with the government of India to make Kashmir a part of India. But to know that you have to read a little bit of history. Just watching CNN won't tell you that.

Kashmiri people want to be part of India more than part of Pakistan. Yash or OrdinaryGuy has already posted an interview with a Kashmiri in some other thread that asserts it. Most of the surveys too have pointed this out.

As far as Geneva convention or human rights are concerned, the US has led the way, I think. Treatment given to the so-called Talibani prisoners, eliminating an entire family with heavy machine-gun fire, bombing a hotel full of foreign journalists, targetting the Al Jazeera offices, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq ... Invading soverign countries without the UN's approval and for purposes other than self-defence ... The list goes on.

In short, shut up :)

.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by OrdinaryGuy
out of all the reasons, you chose one of the most ridiculous ones

Believe it or not. The fact however remains that though we are eager to see the US taking solid action, more than what it did with Afghanistan and Iraq, against Pakistan, and the US is merely sending more aid to and writing off huge debts of Pakistan. Indirectly encouraging the terrorism spreading out of the nation.

.

[KayJay]

So we have, in no particular order
1) Iran
2) Ireland
3) North Korea
4) India
5) Pakistan
6) Syria

Anywhere else a Regime Change is required?

[honeybee]

Originally posted by KayJay
So we have, in no particular order
1) Iran
2) Ireland
3) North Korea
4) India
5) Pakistan
6) Syria

Anywhere else a Regime Change is required?

Mmmm..... Somehow I think by effecting a regime change in just one nation, we could save billions of dollars :rolleyes:

And I think all those arguments against nations such as Iraq or Syria hold equally good against that one nation :rolleyes:

.

[NotLKH]

As far as Geneva convention or human rights are concerned, the US has led the way, I think. Treatment given to the so-called Talibani prisoners,


Debatable as to wether the GC covers them, but none were hung by the ankles days at a time, stripped naked, beaten,...


eliminating an entire family with heavy machine-gun fire,


As they refused to stop when ordered to at a checkpoint after the troops had been ordered to use lethal force under such circumstances. Of course its understandable why they didn't stop, since the driver was under orders not to, and the women & children had families been held hostage, to be killed if they didn't do this.


bombing a hotel full of foreign journalists,


along with some not so foriegn journalists, and some snipers laying down fire on the Troops.

targetting the Al Jazeera offices, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq ...


Not aware of this one. Sorry! :(


Invading soverign countries without the UN's approval and for purposes other than self-defence ... The list goes on.


self-defense is a good reason under certain circumstances.

Wishy Washy UN, bending over backwards to give saddam more time, after every deadline had come and gone, obviously never intending to do anything else, is also another good reason.


;)
-Lou

[honeybee]

Originally posted by NotLKH
Debatable as to wether the GC covers them, but none were hung by the ankles days at a time, stripped naked, beaten,...

I think once you define the treatment as inhuman, it's rather nonsensical to debate what is more inhuman....

As they refused to stop when ordered to at a checkpoint after the troops had been ordered to use lethal force under such circumstances. Of course its understandable why they didn't stop, since the driver was under orders not to, and the women & children had families been held hostage, to be killed if they didn't do this.
Doesn't alter the fact that they were civilians. All the more grave because the whole war thing was without any valid reasons. It's an illegal war and killing civilians in an illegal war should probably be above all other crimes ...

Funnily enough, when one single suicide attack scared the shi t out of your soldiers so much they wiped out an entire family without thinking twice, and here you and your comrades have been defending it, you are very quick to comment on the so-called atrocities committed by the Indian forces in Kashmir :) But then you have never had any experience with terrorism :(

along with some not so foriegn journalists, and some snipers laying down fire on the Troops.
The journalists clearly mentioned they did not hear any firing for a period of about half an hour before the US tank opened fire on the building. Sorry mate, I believe those journalists more than your government.

Not aware of this one. Sorry! :(
It happened in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and there's no reason to believe it was not intentional.


self-defense is a good reason under certain circumstances.
And these circumstances were not those "certain" ones. All the claims made by the US as to why an immediate war was necessary have turned out to be phony.

Wishy Washy UN, bending over backwards to give saddam more time, after every deadline had come and gone, obviously never intending to do anything else, is also another good reason.
Irresponsible, spoilt and unfortunately powerful US, hell-bent on having its own way in every matter, which has consistently adopted a policy that has given rise to such powers as Taliban and Saddam, and then to correct its own mistakes it keeps making newer and bigger ones....
[/B]

.

[honeybee]

For the people who constantly keep talking of Kashmir, have you guys completely ignored the warnings given by Jack Straw, the various American officials including Colin Powell and the statements made by the US ambassador to India Robert Blackwill regarding the infiltration taking place in Kashmir from Pakistani side despite repeated promises by Musharraf that it's not taking place? Or do you not trust your own ministers and officials?

Do you guys even know that most of the Al Qaeda operatives (including possibly bin Laden) have taken shelter in Pakistan, and considering the period elapsed after the Afghanistan demolition drive was over, you have managed to catch not even a sizeable share of Al Qaeda operatives? Ever wondered why your government can't catch them despite the "cooperation" of the Pakistani government?

Do you even know who funded and trained the Al Qaeda? It was the ISI of Pakistan. Do you know a majority of the military officers in Pakistan are sympathetic towards Al Qaeda and Taliban?

Do you know that the leaders of all the terrorist organizations active in Kashmir valley are situated in Pakistan? And that they routinely give interviews to Pakistani newspapers, the recent one being from LeT claiming elimination of Hindus being on their agenda?

How many of you, let me ask, are even aware of the circumstances in which Kashmir was made part of India??

How many of you know about the Khalistan movement? How many of you know about Operation Blue Star, as an effect of which our prime minister Indira Gandhi was assasinated?

.

[Xanith]

The US should pull out of all other "soverign" lands, before arrogant and ignorant fools like you talk about India leaving Kashmir. Israel should vacate the Palestine land, or the Golan Heights too. But that's an entirely different matter, isn't it?
No Israel should leave just as India should leave Kashmir.

Number of Muslims in J & K has never had anything to do with its inclusion in India. The Maharaja of Kashmir entered into an agreement with the government of India to make Kashmir a part of India. But to know that you have to read a little bit of history. Just watching CNN won't tell you that.
I did read my history books and I don’t watch CNN as I don’t like Ted Turner :)

Kashmiri people want to be part of India more than part of Pakistan. Yash or OrdinaryGuy has already posted an interview with a Kashmiri in some other thread that asserts it. Most of the surveys too have pointed this out.
Then why did India hold off on a vote by the people of Kashmir for so many years to decided their fate in violation of UN resolutions? Maybe some time to brutalize and torture the population into "wanting" to stay part of India?

As far as Geneva convention or human rights are concerned, the US has led the way, I think. Treatment given to the so-called Talibani prisoners, eliminating an entire family with heavy machine-gun fire, bombing a hotel full of foreign journalists, targetting the Al Jazeera offices, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq ... Invading soverign countries without the UN's approval and for purposes other than self-defence ... The list goes on.
The Talibani prisoners were not tortured and murdered as the Indian Security forces have done to their prisoners. And the war with Iraq is perfectly legal as stated in resolutions already passed by the UN. Plus the Iraqi people have an added bonus of being rid of the biggest mass murdering dictator that was still alive on the planet.

In short, shut up
You first :)

X

[Xanith]

For the people who constantly keep talking of Kashmir, have you guys completely ignored the warnings given by Jack Straw, the various American officials including Colin Powell and the statements made by the US ambassador to India Robert Blackwill regarding the infiltration taking place in Kashmir from Pakistani side despite repeated promises by Musharraf that it's not taking place? Or do you not trust your own ministers and officials?
LOL this from the guy who says he doesn’t believe anything coming from the US government. How selective of you to only believe the parts that fall nicely into your own little fantasy world you have created for yourself :)

X

[KayJay]

Over these boards, among others, a large number of pro-premptive-devastation people are voicing a sentiment of "I am powerful, I've got the means, I want to remain so, Anything and Everything is fair as long as it is I who does it". A welcome change from the pseudo-humanitarian, semi-fearful, quasi-utilitarian and downright ridiculous reasons, put forward not more than 6 weeks ago. Congratulations! You've come of age!

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by Xanith

Then why did India hold off on a vote by the people of Kashmir for so many years to decided their fate in violation of UN resolutions? Maybe some time to brutalize and torture the population into "wanting" to stay part of India?


The Talibani prisoners were not tortured and murdered as the Indian Security forces have done to their prisoners. And the war with Iraq is perfectly legal as stated in resolutions already passed by the UN. Plus the Iraqi people have an added bonus of being rid of the biggest mass murdering dictator that was still alive on the planet.



India hasn't held a vote because if it did, it would have been useless. If India won, pakastan would accuse it of rigging and if India lost, India would accuse pakastan of rigging it somehow. The best way to know what the people want is through independent polls. The people in Kashmir hate Pakastan as any Indian hates them. They just want peace and security which the government has been trying to give all along. Unfortunately when Pakastan is pushing sophisticated military hardware and men across the border, that becomes very difficult. If any country has faced terrorism on the largest scale, it has been India. Every other day there is some massacre in kashmir. EVERY OTHER DAY. And what these terroridts do to the victims I've already illustrated. I could illustrate again on HoneyBee if you want it once more.

And Xanith, go over the human rights violations by Amnesty. All these violations are on things like rape and murder. India doesn't torture prisoners. You get as many civil liberties in India as you get in the US. I can prove that if you'd like.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Xanith
No Israel should leave just as India should leave Kashmir.
That shows you haven't read your history books properly, or perhaps they don't show the correct history. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, which you didn't care to read, Kashmir has been made officially a part of India by the then Maharaja of Kashmir. Israel is simply invading foreign lands, just like Pakistan is occupying 1/3rd part of the Kashmir valley, which is illegal and amounts to an act of war by itself.

I did read my history books and I don’t watch CNN as I don’t like Ted Turner :)
You didn't, as I have said above.

Then why did India hold off on a vote by the people of Kashmir for so many years to decided their fate in violation of UN resolutions? Maybe some time to brutalize and torture the population into "wanting" to stay part of India?
Give me proof of your accusation, else it's just another stupid and ignorant statement :) The recent elections in J & K were watched by foreign observers, and even the representatives of the US and the UK governments have expressed satisfaction that the polls were conducted in a free atmosphere. Or perhaps you don't trust your own government :p

The reason why India didn't hold elections in J&K is the constant violence carried out by Pakistan-based militants, as has been frequently declared by our government. But obviously you don't trust anything that comes from anyone other than your prez, and maybe propaganda machine :p

The Talibani prisoners were not tortured and murdered as the Indian Security forces have done to their prisoners. And the war with Iraq is perfectly legal as stated in resolutions already passed by the UN. Plus the Iraqi people have an added bonus of being rid of the biggest mass murdering dictator that was still alive on the planet.
Again, that's an argument that only suits you :) Plus you are forgetting the Vietnam, I believe that's a bloody and embarrassing episode for your country, and just today I saw a picture of a US soldier standing near an Iraqi man, accused of being part of a suicide squad, with his foot firmly on the back of the neck of the Iraqi man, who's lying flat, face down on the ground. Perhaps that's permitted by the Geneva convention? :)
And the US troops opened fire on a mob in Mosul, killing about a dozen people. Obviously they were only "returning fire" :)
[/B]

LOL, it's not a question of whether I believe the US and the UK governments, it's a question of whether YOU believe YOUR OWN governments :) Obviously you are too confused, because you agree wholeheartedly with the statements made by Colin Powell and the others as far as Iraq is concerned, while you are overlooking the same people when India and Kashmir is concerned. Do you get the irony of that? :)

As far as human rights violations go, I think you better straighten out your own country, where even the school-going kids are not safe :rolleyes:

.

[KayJay]

Getting back to the question: Who do you want removed from power? Or who do you want installed in power?

[Xanith]

That shows you haven't read your history books properly, or perhaps they don't show the correct history. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, which you didn't care to read, Kashmir has been made officially a part of India by the then Maharaja of Kashmir. Israel is simply invading foreign lands, just like Pakistan is occupying 1/3rd part of the Kashmir valley, which is illegal and amounts to an act of war by itself.
In one of my posts that maybe you forgot to read I did mention this. But I also mentioned that the majority of the population of Kashmir both at the time when Kashmir elected to join with India and now is Muslim, while the Maharaja of Kashmir was Hindu. This is what created such tension between India and Pakistan and is the cause of the past wars and the present conflict between the 2 nations. If India got out of Kashmir and allowed them self rule it would serve to relieve a lot of tension in the region.

I do think this is a very similar situation to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and other territories where the population is mostly Palestinian. So when you call for Israel to pull back from these territories (which by they way were occupied and taken over when the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel and Israel defected the invaders) its very similar in what India should do with Kashmir in my opinion. India doesn’t belong in Kashmir and their occupation of it only furthers the tensions with neighboring Pakistan just as Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza further inflame the Palestinians.

If India was indeed interested in peace they would pull out their hundreds of thousands of troops and allow Kashmir to self govern themselves or join with Pakistan if they wish.

You didn't, as I have said above.
Yes I did you just didn’t read my posts :)

Give me proof of your accusation, else it's just another stupid and ignorant statement The recent elections in J & K were watched by foreign observers, and even the representatives of the US and the UK governments have expressed satisfaction that the polls were conducted in a free atmosphere. Or perhaps you don't trust your own government
I have read countless documentation of these actions committed by the Indian Security forces over the time they have occupied Kashmir. I have read documentation by the US government as well as from Amnesty International and Human Right Watch about the atrocities carried out in Kashmir. I have also read independent accounts of such things happening from reporters who have actually been there and recounted stories from actual eyewitnesses. The evidence is all over the place and easy to find from a large array of sources. Don’t know why you have trouble finding it.

And that’s the biggest load of BS. The reason why India didn’t allow the people of Kashmir to vote on their fate for so long (in violation of UN resolutions) was because they feared (and knew) they would vote to either join with Pakistan or for autonomy.


Again, that's an argument that only suits you Plus you are forgetting the Vietnam, I believe that's a bloody and embarrassing episode for your country, and just today I saw a picture of a US soldier standing near an Iraqi man, accused of being part of a suicide squad, with his foot firmly on the back of the neck of the Iraqi man, who's lying flat, face down on the ground. Perhaps that's permitted by the Geneva convention?
Putting a boot to someone’s neck is a lot different than torturing prisoners to death, as the Indian Security Forces have been accused of doing. You always bring up some story about the US killing civilians by accident or firing back when they are fired upon as some kind of proof that the US is somehow this brutal imperial power. It just doesn’t wash when you look at the facts and what actually happened.

The fact remains is that no matter how much you try to deflect your government is responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians inside of Kashmir. The torture, rape, and murder of innocent civilians is on the hands of your government (and well documented). You should direct your ire inward at your own government if you wish to look for Human Rights Violations.

X

[Pc_Madness]

Originally posted by KayJay
Getting back to the question: Who do you want removed from power? Or who do you want installed in power?

I think something needs to be done about New Zealand. Surely its not right to have more sheep than people? :eek:

On a serious note, Indonesia. They have a president, but she gets told what to do by the Army apparently, so she doesn't have all of the power that she should, and they get alittle psycho when a province tries to break away. ;)

[NotLKH]

Originally posted by honeybee
As far as human rights violations go, I think you better straighten out your own country, where even the school-going kids are not safe .
In terms of "human rights violations" pertaining to schoolkids, what are you referring to?

And, do you have any suggestions as to how you would "straighten out" the US, if it were within your power?

-Lou

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by Xanith
I do think this is a very similar situation to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and other territories where the population is mostly Palestinian. So when you call for Israel to pull back from these territories (which by they way were occupied and taken over when the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel and Israel defected the invaders) its very similar in what India should do with Kashmir in my opinion. India doesn’t belong in Kashmir and their occupation of it only furthers the tensions with neighboring Pakistan just as Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza further inflame the Palestinians.

If India was indeed interested in peace they would pull out their hundreds of thousands of troops and allow Kashmir to self govern themselves or join with Pakistan if they wish.


1) There is no freedom movement in Kashmir like in Palestine. Nor is there any armed struggle nor are there any suicide bombers.

2) The people of Kashmir hate Pakistan and want to remain a part of India. This has been shown in independent polls. All they want is an end to the violence.

Lastly, Pakistan simply doesn't deserve Kashmir. Nuclear proliferation, terrorism, unemployment, non-existant economy?? The government recently elected by the Kashmiri people is trying to restart the economy and create jobs.

Originally posted by Xanith

And that’s the biggest load of BS. The reason why India didn’t allow the people of Kashmir to vote on their fate for so long (in violation of UN resolutions) was because they feared (and knew) they would vote to either join with Pakistan or for autonomy.


A poll is useless as I pointed out. Kashmir belongs to India. Pakistan is occupying half of it. If India holds a poll in kashmir, Pakistan should do so on its occupied terroritory and any hindu dominated region in their country. And as I said countless of times, what is the use when independent polls already show the opinion of the region??

Originally posted by Xanith

I have read countless documentation of these actions committed by the Indian Security forces over the time they have occupied Kashmir. I have read documentation by the US government as well as from Amnesty International and Human Right Watch about the atrocities carried out in Kashmir. I have also read independent accounts of such things happening from reporters who have actually been there and recounted stories from actual eyewitnesses. The evidence is all over the place and easy to find from a large array of sources. Don’t know why you have trouble finding it.


Enough of your attoricity BS. The attrocities that were committed were things like rape and murder. They have never been accused of torturing prisoners. As far as mass murder goes, this has many times been blown out of proportion. What you see is cleansing operations by the police to route out terrorists. Many times there are bloody gun battles where suspected terrorists also get killed (when infact they are innocent civilians). I'm not anti-war but what have we seen in Iraq? 1300 people died in bomb raids. Its sad but that happens when you are actually trying to destroy hostile targets and innocent people get caught up in the cross-fire. And stop asking us to search google. Try searching google yourself and you'd see many articles on "perceived" human rights violations. I also read an article somewhere yesterday about the Indian government's attempts to bring to justice anyone who commited murder or rape. They have setup military courts for quick prosecution of the offenders. And many have been prosecuted. There are two sides to the story. You aren't looking at the other side.

[Xanith]

I usually don’t post links to anything, as I always hate it when people post links to left wing and extreme groups trying to prove their point. I would rather people investigate things on their own. However in this case I will post 1. This one is a report by a US Representative and is part of the Congressional Record. Here is an excerpt:

"Mr. Speaker, I rise today to bring my colleagues' attention to the horrors Indian security forces are inflicting on civilians in Indian-occupied Kashmir. In 1990, brutal fighting erupted after the Indian Government cracked down on separatist militants, the Kashmir State government resigned in protest, and New Delhi declared governor's rule in Kashmir. Indian security forces have brutally repressed civilians in their campaign against militants. The forces have detained, tortured and murdered thousands of innocent civilians for antigovernment activities that were never proven."

LINK (http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/rights/103/160393.html)

There are plenty of accounts from a variety of other sources beside the US government. If you would rather not do the searching yourself to find the truth then fine. Stick your head in the sand and continue to pretend that these acts were not committed by the Indian government. The evidence is clear to me.

Seems rather simple. Hold off on a vote in Kashmir against UN resolutions until you can successfully burtalize the civilian population into "wanting" to stay in India. Pretty effective of the Indian govenment.

X

[OrdinaryGuy]

Xanith, firstly, I never said that these things never happened. I even regreted it. But you are constantly missing the point. You have a NARROWMINDED ONE-WAY VIEW of the issue. Firstly regarding what happened in 1990:

1) civil war erupted. Militants from pakistan had mixed with the population. They were not only targeting police forces but also targeting the general population. Indian forces countered it with Brute Force. Innocent people got caught up in it. To say innocent people were PURPOSELY targeted/killed/tortured is RIDICULOUS. In war, many times innocent people get caught up.

2) Since the 1990 tragedy, the Indian government introduced special courts designed to try anyone that commited and human rights abuses in the state. THEY ARE ACTIVELY PROSECUTING PEOPLE. Since then, there have been virtually no abuses in the state. Things like rape reach these special courts and the victim gets JUSTICE.


Now, if you are telling me that the Indian government is in anyway trying to force its opinion or brutalize the civilian population nowadays, thats absolutely stupid. here's why:

1) There is independent media. There is absolutely no interference from the government. The media is the first agency to criticize the government's action/inaction. Plus, Kashmir has access to foreign news agencies INCLUDING PAKISTANI TV AND RADIO

2) The state government is actively trying to get in INVESTMENTS, develop the ECONOMY and create JOBS in the state. Say goodbye to these if they were a part of pakastan.

Independent polls have shown that THE KASHMIRIS WANT TO BE A PART OF INDIA. ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT HAS RIGGED THESE INDEPENDENT POLLS OR SOMEHOW THEY ARE NOT TRUE??? ARE YOU DENYING THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR WANT TO BE A PART OF INDIA??

India ISN'T OCCUPYING KASHMIR. PAKISTAN IS OCCUPYING KASHMIR AND FUNDING TERRORISM FROM THERE. ARE YOU DENYING THAT???

The people of Kashmir want peace. A massive police presence is present in the state to try to ensure that. BUT EVERY OTHER DAY, PAKASTAN BACKED TERRORISTS EITHER LINE UP AN ENTIRE FAMILY AND SHOOT THEM OR CUT OFF THEIR HEADS OFF. ARE YOU DENYING THIS?

HAVE YOU SHUT YOUR EYES TO THE BLOODY VIOLENCE IN THE STATE THAT IS BEING SPONSORED BY PAKISTAN??

NOW READ THIS ONCE AGAIN AND CAREFULLY BEFORE SAYING ONCE MORE THAT KASHMIRIS WANT TO BE A PART OF PAKISTAN


A Kashmiri Muslim Woman Talks About Pakistan
Author: Mrs Hamida Shah

I am an aware, Muslim Kashmiri woman and a responsible member of society. My husband, also a Muslim Kashmiri, is an army officer and one among the best in our army. Since I am a commoner, I am sure my comments would be taken as impartial and devoid of rhetoric.

It is rather unfortunate to witness the steady and gradual degeneration of Pakistan over the decades sinking into the abysmal cesspool of India-baiting. One had expected a lot from the rapproachement which appeared imminent during the Lahore Declaration days in 1999. However, that great leap forward was soon swallowed by the Kargil intrusions and subsequent increase in cross border terrorism. Presently, Pakistan is just short of being declared a terrorist state, a centre of narcotics smuggling and home for wild eyed muslim fundamentalists. What amazes me is the shamelessness of the whole situation which Pakistan has itself landed in. This reminds me of the famous couplet by Mirza Ghalib, "KIS KE GHAR JAYEGI BALLA MERE BAD" (God knows whose home is going to be the next victim).

Since its creation, Pakistan, has tried to become the self-styled guardian of all Muslims in the sub-continent, which at the outset has been a flawed assumption. Although ever since 1947, in one form or the other, Pakistan has made sneak attempts at such portrayal, the first major signs of it manifested during the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's Premiership, when he hosted the first Islamic Summit in Islamabad in 1974; a brilliant piece of tatesmanship and world-class diplomacy by the astute Bhutto, even when the nation was still gathering itself from the defeat and genocide of fellow Muslims in the then East Pakistan( now Bangladesh). During that summit, Mr Bhutto was much restrained in voicing his so called concern for Kashmir as in fact he had earlier accepted the Cease Fire Line in Jammu and Kashmir to be the Line of Control and subsequently to be recognized/adopted as the boundary between the two countries. But subsequent rulers like the shark-eyed General Zia-ul-Haq and now General Parvez Musharaf chose to throw caution to the winds and voice their crocodile concerns over the plight of Muslims in the whole of India, perceived human rights abuses against them and so called liberation of Kashmir through the barrel of the gun; in the bargain accumulating the collective responsibility of massacre and mayhem, disorder and disruption, desecration and degeneration by employing ercenaries like Afghan hordes, Sudanese bushmen and Pakistani marauders. Their latest action has been the sabotaging the of the peace initiatives in J&K. As someone has rightly said, "BADSHAH DUNIYA KE MHORE HAIN MERI SHATRANJ KE, DILLAGI KI CHAAL HAI SAB RANG SULAH JANG KE" (Pawns are kings of this world of my game, these ceasefires and negotiations are but frivolities of my heart).

Let me discuss the two issues about which Pakistan has been kicking up such a shindy: Kashmir and the plight of Muslims in India. First Kashmir; ever since partition, Pakistan has been a constant source of trouble in Kashmir. It is well known that Pakistan has no love for Kashmiris as their so called co-religionists. The necessity is a geo- political one. It has been a great travesty of destiny that one third of the Valley came under Pakistan control and remained so ever since. That part rightfully belongs to India and is the only unresolved issue between the two countries. Imagine a Pakistan without the POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir); no strategic access to China and Central Asia, no Siachin and no Karakoram. Second, the so-called pilght of Kashmiris; a Kashmiri Muslim is as divergent and as far removed from, say, a Pakistani Punjabi or Sindhi Muslim as a German from a Pole (and the pun is intended). It has been the misfortune of Kashmiris and one of the greatest cruelties of history that invaders had to enter India through these parts, thus leaving a stamp of eternal conflict and chaos.

Kashmir is no pocket borough of Pakistan and Kashmiris no pawns on Pakistan's political chess board. They are a proud, ancient and most cultured community in the sub-continent; be they Hindus or Muslims. It has been the short-sightedness on the part of our leadership that we did not wrest POK from Pakistan soon after that country invaded the valley in 1947.

Now for the plight of Muslims in India; to a very large extent Pakistan is responsible for the ghetto-like existence of Muslims in India. It is Pakistan who has been constantly reminding Muslims in India, through poisonous propaganda, that they are Muslims first and Indians later. The Muslim community has long realised these designs. Muslims are Indians, as much Indian as are believers of any other religion, as much Indian as George Habbash is a Palestinian, as much Indian as Boutros Ghali is an Egyptian or a Tariq Aziz is an Iraqi. Muslims in India are not rented, they have their own distinct identity and pride and belong to the soil. They don't require a certificate from an Ishaq Khan, who played dirty with all his benefactors-a tenet absolutely un- Islamic; or a Zia-ul-Haq who trampled the Constitution he had sworn to defend- an offence punishable by death in Islam-and yet went scot-free, and flogged his nation for ten long years, thus revealing the most ugly face of the faith ; or from General Pervez Musharaf, who is yet to exchange his kneepants for long trousers in the field of international politics.

On the contrary, Pakistan junta should turn a page or two in the history of Independent India and they would find that Muslims in India are Abdul Hamids, Brig Usmans, Idris Latifs or Abdul Kalams or my father-in-law, a Second World War veteran, a freedom fighter and a pious Muslim who was assassinated in cold blood by an ISI-hired Afghan mercenary in July 1992 while offering afternoon prayers. Indian Muslims and Kashmiris in particular do not require to be authenticated by Pakistan. It is therefore, time that the present leadership in Pakistan woke up to the realities and considered accommodation instead of confrontation.

The court of history will judge Pakistanis harshly in case they fail in their duties of nation-building and instead become the instruments of their own destruction, thus perthaps living up to their late Prime Minister's prophecy when just a day prior to commencement of the 1971 war, the fierce Zulfikar Ali Bhutto rose like the legandary Roman General Cassius Gaius in the Security Council facing Indian Foreign Minister Sardar Swaran Singh and said, "Believe me, Mr Foreign Minister, this is the lesson of history from the beginning of time......what belongs to a people will go to that people". By this corollary then, Sind should go to the Sindhis, Punjab to the Punjabis, Baluchistan to Baluchis and NWFP to the Pathans so on. There ought to be a limit to trouble- making. "The malice of the wicked" may have got reinforced by the weakness of the virtuous"; but no more. We shall pray that Pakistanis see the light and leave India's Kashmiris to their own destiny which is secure in Secular India. One can`t help recalling legendary Faiz Ahmed Faiz,

"HAZR KARO MERE TUN SE YEH SIM KA DARYA HAI, HAZR KARO KI MERA TUN WHO CHOB-E-SEHRA HAI, JISE JALAO TO SAHAN CHAMAN MEIN DEHKINGE" (Beware of me for my body is a river of poison. Stay away from me for my body is a parched log in the desert. If you burn it, you won`t see the cypress or the jasmine, But my bones blossoming like thorns on the cactus)".

[run_GMoney]

The guy in the office next to me lives in India. He says Kashmir should be in India. He's smart, nice, and has riden atop elephants. Therefore, Kashmir stays in India.

[OrdinaryGuy]

Where has Xanith run off to? This was just getting fun :)

[honeybee]

Originally posted by NotLKH
In terms of "human rights violations" pertaining to schoolkids, what are you referring to?

And, do you have any suggestions as to how you would "straighten out" the US, if it were within your power?

-Lou

Frankly I didn't expect this reply. It's a welcome break from the others.

Another point: I personally don't have any concrete plan to save the school-children from such killlings, but I do know that if I were the president of the US, I would put their safety and wel-being before that of people in other nations.

By using the term "human rights violation" I merely wanted to point out that while the US government seems to be obsessed with the political freedom of people in other countries like Iraq, it does not seem to be taking any concrete steps towards ensuring that the kids in the US can have a safe schooling, or for that matter even adults can have a safe social life. There are too many problems for the US internally to resolve before it tries to play the saviour of other nations.

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[honeybee]

Originally posted by Xanith
In one of my posts that maybe you forgot to read I did mention this. But I also mentioned that the majority of the population of Kashmir both at the time when Kashmir elected to join with India and now is Muslim, while the Maharaja of Kashmir was Hindu. This is what created such tension between India and Pakistan and is the cause of the past wars and the present conflict between the 2 nations. If India got out of Kashmir and allowed them self rule it would serve to relieve a lot of tension in the region.
Can you get through your head that the number of Muslims in J & K has NOTHING to do with whether Kashmir stays in India or not? Or are you ready to give up a few of your towns and states to other countries whose migrants are in majority there?

I do think this is a very similar situation to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and other territories where the population is mostly Palestinian. So when you call for Israel to pull back from these territories (which by they way were occupied and taken over when the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel and Israel defected the invaders) its very similar in what India should do with Kashmir in my opinion. India doesn’t belong in Kashmir and their occupation of it only furthers the tensions with neighboring Pakistan just as Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza further inflame the Palestinians.
West Bank didn't originally belong to Israel. Pakistan was formerly part of India (which is another point that shows you don't know anything about history). Pakistan broke away from India during the partition, at which time Kashmir was an independent state. Then it was attached to India by the king of the state. Therefore it belongs to India. I guess that's too much history for you to learn and digest.

If India was indeed interested in peace they would pull out their hundreds of thousands of troops and allow Kashmir to self govern themselves or join with Pakistan if they wish.
The choice has been made more than 50 years back. You don't realize that, do you?

I have read countless documentation of these actions committed by the Indian Security forces over the time they have occupied Kashmir. I have read documentation by the US government as well as from Amnesty International and Human Right Watch about the atrocities carried out in Kashmir. I have also read independent accounts of such things happening from reporters who have actually been there and recounted stories from actual eyewitnesses. The evidence is all over the place and easy to find from a large array of sources. Don’t know why you have trouble finding it.
And you haven't heard of the massacres of Hindus carried out in the nights by the Muslim militants wearing Indian Army uniforms? Or the annual practice of the militants to target the Amarnath pilgrimage so they can create confusion, terror among the pilgrims and blame these deaths on the Indian forces? Or that the Muslim youth in the valley are forced to join militants, are hijacked to Pakistan, trained and sent back to Kashmir? Or that India has carried out offers for the militants to surrender, lay down their arms and join the mainstream life?

Putting a boot to someone’s neck is a lot different than torturing prisoners to death, as the Indian Security Forces have been accused of doing. You always bring up some story about the US killing civilians by accident or firing back when they are fired upon as some kind of proof that the US is somehow this brutal imperial power. It just doesn’t wash when you look at the facts and what actually happened.
I am sure it doesn't wash when you are not ready to accept your own mistakes and atrocities :)

The fact remains is that no matter how much you try to deflect your government is responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians inside of Kashmir. The torture, rape, and murder of innocent civilians is on the hands of your government (and well documented). You should direct your ire inward at your own government if you wish to look for Human Rights Violations.
How dramatic! Try joining the pro-Pakistan rallies :)


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