Look at all the Iraqis that didnt want us there!

[Cander]

They are fighting against us per Minister of BS!!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/09/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html
:rolleyes:

[venerable bede]

Wheres HoneyBee when u need him ?

[BodwadUK]

Dam he must have got a life and left all us losers here!!!!! :D :D :D

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by venerable bede
Wheres HoneyBee when u need him ?

he's probably sitting in the corner of the room biting his nails while looking at these pictures

[DeadEyes]

In HoneyBees absence.
I see a tank pulling the statue down I don't see Iraqi's dancing on it though.

[Cander]

I would hope they were not dancing on it while the tank was pulling it down! :o

[DeadEyes]

Originally posted by Cander
I would hope they were not dancing on it while the tank was pulling it down! :o

collateral damage ;)

[venerable bede]

Maybe Honeybee is Sadam the Man himself.

[Arc]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
In HoneyBees absence.
I see a tank pulling the statue down I don't see Iraqi's dancing on it though.

I just saw a huge parade in downtown baghdad of people dancing and carrying American Flags. I just saw the people dragging around a head of Saddam from a huge statue and people taking turns riding it.:D I have yet to see any people saying they are mad we are there.. well aside from the Regime;)

So much for plenderj's theory on how the Iraqis were gunna be pissed off and hate the U.S. and fight against for thier national pride haha. You have to be proud of your country in the first place to want to fight for it.

[mkiihne]

"You have to be proud of your country in the first place to want to fight for it."

I don't think the Iraquis lack pride in their country. I think the pride they have in their country shows when they celebrate the fall of Saddam's regime. They realize that they no longer have to live in fear of Saddam and his followers.

[Xanith]

So much for plenderj's theory on how the Iraqis were gunna be pissed off and hate the U.S. and fight against for thier national pride haha. You have to be proud of your country in the first place to want to fight for it.
I think Iraqi's have great pride in their country they just have no love for Saddam and their band of murderous thugs. But your right about the people wanting this more than they are against it. The only people who are complaining are those who were backing Saddam. You can throw the French, Russians, and Germans in that group as well.

X

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Arc
You have to be proud of your country in the first place to want to fight for it.

It wasn't their country until now.

[DeadEyes]

Originally posted by Arc
I just saw a huge parade in downtown baghdad of people dancing and carrying American Flags. I just saw the people dragging around a head of Saddam from a huge statue and people taking turns riding it.:D I have yet to see any people saying they are mad we are there.. well aside from the Regime;)

So much for plenderj's theory on how the Iraqis were gunna be pissed off and hate the U.S. and fight against for thier national pride haha. You have to be proud of your country in the first place to want to fight for it.

yeah I just seen it on the news there, of course Iraq is made up of various tribal groups some of whom suffered more at the hands of Saddam. As a cautionary note, British troops were welcome into the North by nationalist in the early 70s and look what happened there!

[nishantp]

It all depends on what happens now. If they can somehow turn Iraq into a country with something resembling an economy, and educate people, in a few years you'll have a country that will be much better off. However, its nothing like post-WW2 Japan or Germany. Literacy rates are far lower, and an entire generation has grown up never knowing anything resembling a democracy. Same problem as in Afganistan. I hope they they up with some really bright ideas...

[KingArthur]

the iraqies have been LIVING for saddam all their life and were living for his father be4. I think they simply try to be friends with the government as they ever were.... I just one day be4 amarican forces moved in I saw croweds kissing saddams hand.... I don't think they had to do so but they really seemed to love him... and now they really seem to hate him... maybe they really just live to be slaves of the government:S

[kleinma]

Originally posted by KingArthur
the iraqies have been LIVING for saddam all their life and were living for his father be4. I think they simply try to be friends with the government as they ever were.... I just one day be4 amarican forces moved in I saw croweds kissing saddams hand.... I don't think they had to do so but they really seemed to love him... and now they really seem to hate him... maybe they really just live to be slaves of the government:S

no they had to act like they liked him even if they didn't... you couldn't speak out against the government there or you would face persecution or torture

[KingArthur]

well kleinma I think I have to present what I know:
1. I am an arab(I HATE saying that I am one... I live in israel and have many jewish and american friends).
2. fortunatly I was born in israel and not in some arabian country
3. I have some arabian contacts in my massenger and I know what is up there
(OK this was the introduction)
4. I watch germany and arabian news chanells(of course CNN too but this is the only english chanell) and only by mixing both news you can get the full story


don't forget it: I live here in israel and even here many many f***ed arabs LOVE saddam and wish that he wins the war(how could they even wish it it is impossible and disgusting!).

[BodwadUK]

Whoops 1. I am an arab(I HATE saying that I am one... I live in israel and have many jewish and american friends).

I have many friends of different nationality but i never think twice about it. I dont hate saying that i am English and i dont mind anyone saying there own nationality out loud.

We dont hate Arabs and we never have done and i think its time everyone understands it is never about religion or nationality its usually about one or two people who run the countries we attack. :) :) :) :)


Everyone has supporters especially when they are not under the person they supports boot. Its idealism and a lack of reality that makes these people believe in Saddam. many Germans liked Hitler but when they found out about the death camps they hated him. Reality is often hidden in favour of something else :( :( :(

[KingArthur]

OK I think that we have got a bit off subject but I'm gonna answer
I hate saying that I'm an arab 'cos I simply am not accepted as an arab here(I don't think like others think so I'm not accepted good reason eh?)...
I've got friends from all over the world too though I often forget where everybody is from

We dont hate Arabs
well I do. I have to live with them everyday and I know why I hate them(but this is not the place to discuss it)


(get back to the subject)

[BodwadUK]

Let us drop this bit of the discussion because it could get a bit dangerous if you know what i mean :) :) :) :)

[Pc_Madness]

Calling all Jamies, whats your take on this celebration in the streets? :D

[veryjonny]

Not favoring Saddam, but a just a thought.....

This is a mail I got.

Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq?

1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have?

A: 6%

2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have?

A: 50%

3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves?

A: Saudi Arabia

4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves?

A: Iraq

5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?

A: $900+ billion

6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.?

A: 50%

7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the the UN?

A: 10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund US's retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).

8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II?

A: 86 million

9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?

A: Since the early 1980's.

10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical & biological weapons on their own?

A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government,
along with Britain and private corporations.

11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran?

A: No

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988?

A: 5,000

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time?

A:0

14. Q: How many gallons of agent Orange did America use in Vietnam?

A: 17million.

15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack?

A: No

16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War?

A: 35,000

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western
forces during the Gulf War ?

A: 0

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?

A: 6,000

19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War?

A: 40 tons

20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq
between 1991 and 1994?

A: 700%

21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had
destroyed in 1991?

A: 80%

22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense?

A: No

23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago?

A: No

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?

A: 10,000

25. Q: What percentage of these will be children?

A:Over 50%

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq?

A: 11years

27. Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and
September 1999?

A: No

28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?

A: 20 million

29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?

A: 12 years

30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)?

A: 38

31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)?

A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)

32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a
result of UN sanctions?

A: 1.5 million

33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997?

A: 750,000

34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq?

A: No

35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998?

A:300

36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems?

A:5

37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ?

A: Yes

38. Q: Who said that by December 1998, Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history.

A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.

39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled?

A: 90%

40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in?

A: Yes

41. Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992?

A: Over 65

42. Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and 1990?

A: 30+

43. Q: How much does the U.S. fund Israel a year?

A:$5 billion

44. Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons?

A: 8

45. Q:How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?

A: 0

46. Q: How many nuclear warheads has US got?

A: over 10,000

47. Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons?

A: the US

48. Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?

A: Over 400

49. Q: Has Israel ever allowed UN weapons inspections?

A: No

50. Q: What percentage of the Palestinian territories are controlled by
Israeli settlements?

A: 42%

51. Q: Is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian land?

A: Yes

52. Q: Which country do you think poses the greatest threat to global peace: Iraq or the U.S.?

A: ?

53. Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about
things that matter"?

A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

[Pc_Madness]

Those are some lovely statistics, just lovely. Do you have links to where they came from? From respected sites?

[veryjonny]

This is a mail I got.


I already told you.:D

[Pc_Madness]

So you don't know if its correct?

[veryjonny]

Do you believe them to be incorrect?

[BodwadUK]

It just looks as as though the killing of 5000 Kurds was justified because nobody made a complaint.

How nasty "dont attack and free them because some will die let Saddam just kill them instead!!!" is what they are saying.

[Pc_Madness]

Originally posted by veryjonny
Do you believe them to be incorrect?

Unless I see that they are from a respected source, then anybody could have made them up?

[KayJay]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
It just looks as as though the killing of 5000 Kurds was justified because nobody made a complaint.

How nasty "dont attack and free them because some will die let Saddam just kill them instead!!!" is what they are saying.
Its heartening to note that such a huge outflow of solidarity and support has sprung for the Kurds from such a vast number of people who, on the 11th of August 2001, were quite content to contemplate that "KURDS" was one of the permutations of "DUKRS". :rolleyes:

[veryjonny]

Originally posted by Pc_Madness
Unless I see that they are from a respected source, then anybody could have made them up?

Who wants you to believe;), and unless contradictory reports come up I wold continue to believe them to be true...

America cant tell other to mind their business...its because of Americas faulty foreign policies that nations like Afghanisthan and Iraq have come up....Read some facts buddy...

[Xanith]

Originally posted by veryjonny
Who wants you to believe;), and unless contradictory reports come up I wold continue to believe them to be true...

America cant tell other to mind their business...its because of Americas faulty foreign policies that nations like Afghanisthan and Iraq have come up....Read some facts buddy...
Yeah base all your opinions on one email you received from some anonymous source and don't look elsewhere to see if they are true or not. :rolleyes:

You sound exactly like your typical uninformed anti-American person :)

X

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by veryjonny
Who wants you to believe;), and unless contradictory reports come up I wold continue to believe them to be true...


Camel dung contains %20 uranium. Camels ingest the uranium while drinking out of small moisture pools in the desert. Thus if you step in a hot steaming campel pie you chances of getting foot cancer increase 933445.1%


America cant tell other to mind their business...its because of Americas faulty foreign policies that nations like Afghanisthan and Iraq have come up....Read some facts buddy... [/B]

So it was the US that invaded Afghanastan:confused: I thought it was the Soviets :confused: By your logic The soviets are to blame for the mess in vietnam because the armed the north vietnamese to fight the US.

I thought it was Iran invading Iraq that Saddam used to get to power. :confused: Again, all we did was train Iraqi soldiers. You are full of sheit if you think the US was ever the biggest arms supplier to Iraq. Erm......Lets see. Soviet Transport Aircraft, Soviet Fighter Jets, French Fighter Jets, French SAMs, German SAMs, French Armoured Personell Carriers, Soviet Tanks, Soviet Artillary, Soviet Machine guns, Mobile Missle launchers sitting on top of Mercedes trucks. If you want me to keep going down the list I will. I'm tired of all the dipsheits saying we armed them in the first place. Even Osama can't get it right, In his letter to America(half arse war declaration) He writes about american tanks killing palestinians. ISRAEL'S TANKS ARE FOOKING FRENCH BUILT YOU DUMBARSE! The Isralies bought them because they are the best tanks in the world. :rolleyes:

[Arc]

Even if everything in that list was 100% true, which it's not, so what? Saddam brought this war upon himself. Iraq will be alot better off without him. In the long run nothing would be better for Iraq than this war.

[nishantp]

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?

A: 6,000 the BS detectors went up big time on that one. Thats where I stopped reading. Although somehow I think they conveniently forgot to tell you how many civilians Saddam has killed during his time in power.:rolleyes:

And since you like to believe things until they are disproven, I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that your mother slept with your uncle last night.

[BodwadUK]

Camel dung contains %20 uranium. Camels ingest the uranium while drinking out of small moisture pools in the desert. Thus if you step in a hot steaming campel pie you chances of getting foot cancer increase 933445.1%


So if i bombarded it with neatrons i could inadvertantly set off a nuclear explosion??????
Dam i must stop camel **** jumping competitions immediately!!!! :D :D :D

Most equipment to Iraq and other countries in the region are supplied by countries other than the US. America did support Saddam againt Iran but they didnt ask him to become and threat to the west in 20 or so years time so that America could blow him up!!!!!!

Doesnt matter where Saddam came from he was a risk to his people and to the west so action was taken to remove him. Remember he was given the chance to leave Iraq peacfully but he didnt. Tough luck to him!!!!! :) :) :) :)

[Shaggy Hiker]

Of those who complain about those facts, every one of you has stated a similar level of blind acceptance on this board. It may well be that you have experience and background that goes far beyond normal, after all, you are obviously educated and intelligent. However, we don't know each other, and have no way of judging where a person speaks from in such a limited forum. Thus, what appears to be blind acceptance of some factoid by one person, may actually be a carefully constructed position built on years of study. We simply can't know.

For example, this thread began with a statement as silly as that letter. Sure, it may be true that the picture indicates something significant, but how would we know? Journalists take pictures and shoot footage to show something. Is that reality? No, just somebodies view of reality. Does anybody here seriously believe that it would be difficult for a reporter or a news channel to bias coverage in any direction imagineable? There are ample reports of people still supporting Saddam, and there are ample reports of people glad that he's gone. I think you could find the same mix of opinions about Bush. For whoever said that Hitler was loved by some, then hated after he left, that's not true. Hitler is still loved and even worshipped by many, even though the rest of us feel he was evil. Our information is propaganda, with no single report free from bias of one sort or another. Complaining that the bias of one piece is wrong while accepting the bias of another piece is self-serving.

People think this wasn't a religeous war. Are we so blind as to think that there are not people who do want to persecute Islam? I think not. Even if it was not a stated or intended goal of the US, the war was supported by some segment for this very reason. I mention this only to point out that there are a nearly infinite variety of flavors in the forces for and against any act like this. Many of the points made in that letter are quite true, while some certainly are either false, or mis-stated. Many people here, are making absolute statements suggesting that opinion or cause of action are homogenous to a single view or cause. Any such position is false, since counter arguments could be made for each position showing that the view held is not representative of group x.

The only true position is that there were many causes for this war, some were not honourable. There were many reactions to this war, some will hurt us. We can't turn our backs on a course of action simply because our rationale is not homogenous. On the other hand, we should not support some action on the misguided belief that the action has simple reasons.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
So if i bombarded it with neatrons i could inadvertantly set off a nuclear explosion??????
Dam i must stop camel **** jumping competitions immediately!!!! :D :D :D


It depends on the type of shoes you are wearing. Stepping in a camel cake barefoot may greatly reduce the chance of causing an atomic blast followed by a devastingly odius mushroom cloud, however, your chances of foot cancer increase. I would reccomend Nike Air shoes. These shoes will give you the superhuman ability to jump like Michael Jordan and you will never have to worry about not clearing the highest point of the tempel of dung.

[Shaggy Hiker]

How about elephants, are elephants radioactive? I don't think I could jump their dung.

[nishantp]

Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
Of those who complain about those facts, every one of you has stated a similar level of blind acceptance on this board. It may well be that you have experience and background that goes far beyond normal, after all, you are obviously educated and intelligent. However, we don't know each other, and have no way of judging where a person speaks from in such a limited forum. Thus, what appears to be blind acceptance of some factoid by one person, may actually be a carefully constructed position built on years of study. We simply can't know.


I would just like to point out the unlikelyhood that someone who has studied on a topic such as middle-east issues for years would come to a forum such as this one to express their views. Its more likely they would be off teaching at a university, or some place where people are accountable for what they say.

Otherwise, I applaud your level-headedness and your attempt to alleviate ignornance (i don't agree with all of your post, but hey...).

[MasterBlaster]

Elephants are the worst danger. Everyone knows that weaponized uranium is used in the process of salting peanuts. If that elephant has been eating salted peanuts then you might as well kiss your butt goodbye or buy a pole vault.

[BodwadUK]

The point of Camel **** jumping is to make the largest splat possible not avoid it.

DAM U that means i have to cancel the new elephant **** jumping competition that was to be held this weekend. They wont like you you know!!! :( :( :( :(



Can i jump in cow **** or do you think the methane will be compressed too much and therfore ignite???? :) :) :)

[Shaggy Hiker]

Actually, that's the reason you jump on cow ****. How do you think the cow jumped over the moon? It stepped in the wrong place.

[BodwadUK]

Fair point!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

Would that not mean there is a cow jumping over the moon every day???? :confused: :confused: ;) ;)

[Shaggy Hiker]

I wish they would. There's a reservoir near here that I like to sail on. At this time of the year, the reservoir is filling. That floats all the cow pies, so the sailing is through drifting mats of pies.

Fortunately, the pies sink or break up after a few weeks, but I'm still not going to touch that water any more than I absolutely have to. I know that's unrealistic, since there's crap in every natural body of water, but those rafts of dung were pretty unappetizing.

[BodwadUK]

Jump on them when you want to get to shore!!!!:D :D :D :D

[plenderj]

Something I doubt the US media is bothering to cover is the fact that there are widespread anti-us protests inside iraq at the moment.
Also add to that the utter resentment for the US in more rural areas because of all the people who were killed.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by plenderj
Something I doubt the US media is bothering to cover is the fact that there are widespread anti-us protests inside iraq at the moment.
Also add to that the utter resentment for the US in more rural areas because of all the people who were killed.
Yeah it’s being covered. I was recently in Canada and it was covered there too :)

But I think you are over-reacting as usual. Sure there are protests from some of the people. That is expected. I think it’s also a good thing. For the first time in a long time the people are actually free to express themselves without fear of being shot. I hope that they would take the time too look at that before complaining to much :)

And militants are always going to stir the pot. They do it here in the US. The far left and communists were responsible for most of the anti-war rallies here that made such news. There will always be people who don't agree with what is being done. But at least now the Iraqi people CAN disagree without getting a bullet in the back of their head.

X

[BodwadUK]

Good boy!!!

*Bodwad gives Xanith a choc drop

[veryjonny]

Originally posted by nishantp
And since you like to believe things until they are disproven, I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that your mother slept with your uncle last night.

that just shows your pervert mentality.......

[WiKiDJeFF]

In this day and age it seems that we are truly slaves to freedom.

[chenko]

I remember seeing when they pulled that down on TV, they made it look like loads and loads of people were celebrating, but when it was show on a documentary from a wider angle, about 20 people were dancing about, and there were people scattered around and they wern't interrested in the slightest.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by Xanith


And militants are always going to stir the pot. They do it here in the US. The far left and communists were responsible for most of the anti-war rallies here that made such news.
And you're facts would be where???? Besides, does someone's political views make their opinion any less important?

Originally posted by Xanith
There will always be people who don't agree with what is being done. But at least now the Iraqi people CAN disagree without getting a bullet in the back of their head.

X

I'm sure this is of great comfort to the people who have just buried their children, brothers, sisters, friends, parents etc.

[WiKiDJeFF]

I'm sure this is of great comfort to the people who have just buried their children, brothers, sisters, friends, parents etc.

I'm willing to guess that it is.

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
And you're facts would be where???? Besides, does someone's political views make their opinion any less important?
I read this from numerous sources months ago about this awhile back. This was not a grass roots protest to some massive injustice as was the case during Viet Nam. This was a politically motivated movement by Communists and Left Wing groups.

And I never said that the opinions of Left Wing Radicals or Communists are any less important. What I am saying is that the protests you saw (at least here in the US) were politically motivated and organized and not some ground swell of grass roots protests of ordinary people frustrated with the president’s policy in Iraq.

Originally posted by Ex-FB
I'm sure this is of great comfort to the people who have just buried their children, brothers, sisters, friends, parents etc.
Actually it probably is as most of the dead were killed by Saddam. 1 million give or take thousands were killed by Saddam. They are probably very happy hes no longer in power.

X

[WiKiDJeFF]

I'm not saying your wrong, but whered you get the number 1 million from? I'm always looking for new stats since I'm something of a number freak.

BTW Roughly 62% of America supported the war.

[WiKiDJeFF]

Some interesting stats I got from CNN.

A group of Americans between the ages of 18-24 were surveyed.

87 percent cannot find Iraq

83 percent cannot find Afghanistan

76 percent cannot find Saudi Arabia

70 percent cannot find New Jersey

49 percent cannot find New York

11 percent cannot find the United States

http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/

[Maven]

I don’t think that survey is an accurate representation of the USA. Quite frankly I slept through geography class and was referred to by my teacher as a “Slacker”. Point is I have no trouble at all pointing out any of the countries on the map. Well I take that back, there is probably a few in South America I wouldn’t stand a chance in hell of guessing and one or two in Africa.

[BodwadUK]

I think we are going off topic :) :) :)

I hate maps i cant even find my local supermarket :D :D :D


Iraq needs to get back on its feet again with a proper government in place chosen by the people. America does need to back out and try to make a friend out of Iraq (Politically). Their actions at the moment may damage that as they show no signs of backing out or any sign that they are trying to quickly establish a Iraqi government. :) :) :) :)

[WiKiDJeFF]

Um, how can we back out now? There is still a mess left to be cleaned up and currently we are the Iraqi Government. Right now we are working at cleaning up the mess, after which a new government will be set up. C-Span has the latest briefing on this.

[Maven]

Backing out would be unresponsable of the USA. I mean we broke it, it's our place to fix it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I didn't support the war, but I support an early withdrawal even less. We went and did it, now we need to finish the job. If we leave now Iraq will either become as democratic as Iran, or will fall into ethnic civil war. Neither solution is good for anybody.

[BodwadUK]

I am not saying back all out what is am saying is to remove some troops and to stop looking to much like a large invasion force.

Even if you dont actually back out you could at least show more signs to the people of Iraq that you are trying to get them their own government as quickly as you can. Plenty of Iraqis believe America is trying to run the place because all they see is American troops on their streets.

There is no sign of any structures for the new government either, i think even empty gestures like start building government offices in each town for counsils will reasure those that dont have tellys that something is happening. You have got rto win over the people by showing them signs (Even empty ones) that you are doing something for them. Too long without any signs of change and they will believe America is an occupying force. :) :) :)

just my thoughts anyway ;) ;) ;)

[WiKiDJeFF]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
I am not saying back all out what is am saying is to remove some troops and to stop looking to much like a large invasion force.

Even if you dont actually back out you could at least show more signs to the people of Iraq that you are trying to get them their own government as quickly as you can. Plenty of Iraqis believe America is trying to run the place because all they see is American troops on their streets.

There is no sign of any structures for the new government either, i think even empty gestures like start building government offices in each town for counsils will reasure those that dont have tellys that something is happening. You have got rto win over the people by showing them signs (Even empty ones) that you are doing something for them. Too long without any signs of change and they will believe America is an occupying force. :) :) :)

just my thoughts anyway ;) ;) ;)

If anything we need more troops there to keep the order, prevent looting, and combat terrorism.

We are an occupying force.

[BodwadUK]

But that is what they are scared of and so more terrorism will rise up in their country if unwanted people are present.

[WiKiDJeFF]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
But that is what they are scared of and so more terrorism will rise up in their country if unwanted people are present.

That is an interesting theory. Criminals hate police, would removing police reduce crime? Would removing America reduce Terrorism? These questions are virtually impossible to answer.

It's hard to know how terrorists would respond if America left Iraq. So I think we shouldn't depend on their response. Besides the bigger problem right now is the state of Iraq. The country is a mess with no infrastructure and this problem needs to be dealt with.

[BodwadUK]

Terrorists rise up because of hatred, hatred of troops in Iraq is caused by the presense of them and no noticable Iraqi presence. Maybe if we were to have an Iraqi presence of police and make our troops assist instead of run.

It needs food and water. The infastructure needs building up from the mess that saddam left it :( ;) :( :(

[WiKiDJeFF]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
Terrorists rise up because of hatred, hatred of troops in Iraq is caused by the presense of them and no noticable Iraqi presence. Maybe if we were to have an Iraqi presence of police and make our troops assist instead of run.

It needs food and water. The infastructure needs building up from the mess that saddam left it :( ;) :( :(

Thats a relatively simplistic view on the issue.

The mess resulting in a lack of public utilities is a result of removing the acting government. Now it is our job to put in place a new government and rebuild the country.

The whole terrorism issue is a side effect of invading. Terrorists only represent the extremists, not the majority. And even the majority has spent a lifetime listening to tv channels and radio stations promoting anti-american feelings.

[BodwadUK]

I agree it is simplistic. The country must have a large income from oil trade so where did all the money go??? Saddam kept it for himself and let his people live in relative poverty.

The extremists do the most damage look at Sept 11th. something like 8 people killed thousands!!!!! In UK we have/had (Dont know where he is) an extremist priest from some religion who publicly told people to bomb us and ANY western country!!! the government couldnt send him packing becuase of 'Human Rights' and that just pisses me off because it just sounds like some ***** trying to make himself into a leader by promoting the murder of others. And we couldnt do anything about him!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[WiKiDJeFF]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
I agree it is simplistic. The country must have a large income from oil trade so where did all the money go??? Saddam kept it for himself and let his people live in relative poverty.

The extremists do the most damage look at Sept 11th. something like 8 people killed thousands!!!!! In UK we have/had (Dont know where he is) an extremist priest from some religion who publicly told people to bomb us and ANY western country!!! the government couldnt send him packing becuase of 'Human Rights' and that just pisses me off because it just sounds like some ***** trying to make himself into a leader by promoting the murder of others. And we couldnt do anything about him!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yes the extremists often do do most of the damage, I am just saying that their views don't necessarily reflect the overall feeling of Iraq.

Just a thought, but the top one percent of America has most of the wealth, and one in five children here live in poverty. (I am not advacating, suggesting, or commenting on anything with this statement).

[BodwadUK]

I agree :) :) :) . We are responsible for them and their protection now as well but they are more likely to start listening to extremists if they believe they have no say in their country or that America is stealing from them (oil, Goods, money etc)

They are seeing no return from the liberation and this will cause unrest. Its all about buttering them up wether it is expensive or not. A new town hall in towns etc shows democracy is on its way and will cool down the tension and replace it with excitement (For those who want a democracy)

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)


Poverty is everywhere but the American government tries to help those who are poor. Saddam didnt give a sh** and took what was rightfully his own peoples money. He had hordes of money and wealth that he was keeping while his people suffered. That is a very bad leader in deed!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I do see your point though :) :) :) :)

[WiKiDJeFF]

Clearly we don't have to accomodate the extremists, we simply have to beat them.

I doubt Iraqis would care about a new town hall when some don't have running water or electricity.

[BodwadUK]

Well ok then after the water and electricity is restored. My point is you must show that something is happening to benefit them and then they will help isolate the extremists.;) ;) ;)

[WiKiDJeFF]

Iraqis are already starting to embrace western culture. CNN had a nice article on how they are installing satelite TVs for the first time. Imagine going your whole life without having free media. :eek: :confused: :mad:

[BodwadUK]

I Object

i dont have satelight its skank!!!!

5 Channels of joy :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

:D :D :D :D :D

[Wally Pipp]

And at the same time Shia spiritual leaders are flocking to Baghdad to establish an islamic bond with the clear intention of taking over the country and making it an Islamic state.
Loads of Shia in and around Baghdad are listening very keenly to what they're saying and it ain't in favour of the US. Shalabi is called "a man who's knowledge of Iraq and the suffering is only hearsay" and they don't trust the Iraqi National Congress one bit.

So I wouldn't say things are definately going the right way. In fact, if this was the coalition's post war plan it isn't really flying off the blocks, is it ?

[BodwadUK]

Why cant people just accept differences and stop trying to force their beleifs onto others???

Hey i know lets make a strict country that prevents people to have free will!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Why not exists and accept thats what i think. Islamic state my arse!!!!!:( :( :( :(

[PeteD]

I don't think the war had anything to do with weapons of mass distruction. I don't think it had anything to do with Saddam. The middle east is very important to the west because of it's oil, and this was obviously a factor, but here is my theory about why the war in Iraq took place:

The US is very concerned about the breakdown of relationships with Saudi Arabia. They are concerned that the feeble Saudi monarchy will soon be overthrown, and the relationship will become much worse. The war on Iraq was an excuse to gain control of a very strategic piece of land in the middle east.

Interesting articles:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/051503_saudi_africa.html

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a7.html

[powdir]

Hmmm....interesting couple of theories P. It a real tough subject this one. I do believe however that the war was NOT one of liberation - only a naive fool would swallow that one and smile.

What REALLY bugs me is the political spin - if i ignore it i get passive and stoopid. If i listen i actually get quite ANGRY - PISS off Blair you patter merchant, you patronizing, smug *******...SEE, SEE what i meAN. And that is not good for the health

I also quite funny to watch the popular media change subtley. Remember RAMBO helping out the 'Meester I love Mickey Mouse' Mujahideen. He would be back kickin' their arse these days i'll wager - is there truth in the runour that there was a dedication to the 'BRAVE FIGHTERS OF AFGHANISTAN' at the end? or is that urban myth...

OOPS too much talk, It's FRIDAY !!! must dash down for some Rizlas and Pringles now...NO WAIT...going out tonight...must be...able to...umm...converse with..um... friends...and...that

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND ONE AND ALL !!!

[PeteD]

Originally posted by powdir
must dash down for some Rizlas and Pringles now...NO WAIT...going out tonight...must be...able to...umm...converse with..um... friends...and...that

LOL, was thinking exactly the same! ;) Have a good'n!