Pentium or Celeron?

[mendhak]

What sort of a user would go for a Pentium, and what sort of a user would go for a Celeron?

In other words, "If I use so and so applications, I should get a Pentium, but if I use these apps and not those, then I should got a Celeron."

Any elaborations? :)

[alex_read]

What sort of a user would go for a Pentium
- a wise man
and what sort of a user would go for a Celeron
- an idiot

I chose a celeron in my laptop & am regretting it ever since. I've put a load of tweaks on it to speed things up, but there's a performance hit with everything!!

Internet (kazaa) & programming, i.e. visual basic are the worst ones - run fine on a similar spec pc with an athlon by with my celeron they're just slow & crap.

[BodwadUK]

Celeron is for people who dont know anything about PC's and think they are getting a deal!!!!


Pentium is way better but you cant beat an Athlon XP :D :D :D :D

[Rick Bull]

I thought Celerons were OK if you aren't planning to use CPU intensive apps like DVD players, games and that kind of thing. For word processing and such I thought it was fine?

What's the difference? Less cache on the Celeron?

[NoteMe]

Originally posted by BodwadUK

Pentium is way better but you cant beat an Athlon XP :D :D :D :D


You could always use MP...;)

[BodwadUK]

Less cache and also an unstable arcitecture. The making is less precise and has a tendancy to cause less stability and cause it to go slower than the original Pentiums.

You sacrifice stability for lower cost.

For apps like word the celeron is ok but not for games, DVD quality is based mainly on graphics card and has very little to do with the processor. if you want it for simple work in a simple office celeron is ideal if you want it to do something for you that requires uummmpffff then dont go with celeron. :D :D :D

[NoteMe]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
Less cache and also an unstable arcitecture. The making is less precise and has a tendancy to cause less stability and cause it to go slower than the original Pentiums.

You sacrifice stability for lower cost.



Just wondering...are you talking about the Celeron or MP processor now...??

[BodwadUK]

Celeron :D :D :D



Ok *** is an MP???????? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[NoteMe]

MP...is AMD Athlons best prosessor...it's mainly used for servers and dualboards...;)...I've gt it...:D

[BodwadUK]

Can i have it??? :D :D :D :D


How much your PC Cost and how old is it???

[NoteMe]

I can't remember what it did cost..or don't want to...and no you can't have it...it as old as my account here at VBForum...;)

[mendhak]

Hmm...
OK, let's say I work with the following:

PHP, ASP, VisualInterDev, Visual Basic, C++
SQL Server
mySQL
MS Word, Access, Front Page
Internet stuff: Morpheus, IE, Yahoo, MSN
Flash, PaintSHopPro...
IIS web server... uhm...
One antivirus, obviously...
That's it.

I don't play games anymore... SO which of the above ones qualify as an "uummmphhh" application. Does this warrant me to get a Pentium, or will a Celeron still do here?

[alex_read]

I've seen slow performance with these on mine:
ASP, VisualInterDev, Visual Basic, C++, SQL Server, MS Word, Morpheus, IE, MSN

I could see there maybe a problem with these too:
PaintShopPro, Flash & the antivirus

*** is front page doing in there ?!?!?!?! - no excuse for that one!

[BodwadUK]

You need a pentium because Webserver need umpff to keep going, VB etc needs umpfff for running and compiling

Word ,Access excel and most internet apps will be fine on a celeron make your choice :D :D :D :D :D

[alex_read]

Depends if he's doing any work with vba or has documents or databases with lots of pictures in (or using the clipboard a lot to copy & paste bits between the office apps).

Generally, the internet is okay, but as soon as you use Morpheus or Kazaa etc, you can kiss your speed goodbye - it's not even worth trying to use some of the other apps if you're downloading a lot.

[BodwadUK]

Celerons can cope with that sort of stuff their not THAT cr** :D :D :D



































P.s That was a Joke :D :D :D :D :D

[VisionIT]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
Pentium is way better but you cant beat an Athlon XP :D :D :D :D

Er...

Athlon 64? That beats the XP by a long way! :) It's the first x86 64bit processor for the general public! 99% of MB's won't support it yet... so make sure yours does before you buy one! :p

AMD MP's will now become AMD Opterons BTW, they are starting to provide new server solutions.

Regards,

Paul.

[mendhak]

Originally posted by alex_read
I've seen slow performance with these on mine:
ASP, VisualInterDev, Visual Basic, C++, SQL Server, MS Word, Morpheus, IE, MSN

I could see there maybe a problem with these too:
PaintShopPro, Flash & the antivirus


That right there decided it for me. It's pentium for my laptop. Thanks. :)



*** is front page doing in there ?!?!?!?! - no excuse for that one!

Only for validation!!! I still use notepad :D (and it's better than Dreamweaver at least)

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Rick Bull

What's the difference? Less cache on the Celeron?

What BodwadUK said. Celerons don't have the xtra burst cache that the pentiums have. The poor design causes them to run hot also. I had an older celeron and had to mod my case to keep the thing from overheating. It eventually cooked itself, even with the in/out 2 fan system I put in it. Biggest waste of $500 I've been guilty of in a while.

AMD make a helluva nice processor also, you may want to consider one of those also. Personally, I only use pentiums cause of the stability and their ability to run a bit hot without cooking themselvs.

[mendhak]

If the Celerons are known to behave as you mention (cooking), why does Intel make them then?

[NoteMe]

To sell finished PC packages to families that has no clue about PCs...;)

[VisionIT]

Originally posted by NoteMe
To sell finished PC packages to families that has no clue about PCs...;)

Dead right :p

Regards,

Paul.

[NoteMe]

I worked in a PC shop before, and we sold computer stuff, so I know a whole lot of how to sell those computers to naive families....;)

[Sastraxi]

I had a celly 533 and never had any problems with it... of course I had no say in what my computer was going to have at that point so I was stuck with it :p. They're pretty slow, mine however matched well a K7-550 (I think, maybe it was a K6), it was something like 1500 3DMarks vs. maybe 1450 (same gfx and ram, mind you). If you're into budget computing, you may want to think twice about a celeron (now... the mendocinos were okay but the coppermines are pretty bad... my cel. 533 mendocino beat a server's cel. 733 coppermine). Your best bet would be a Duron. My dad picked up a Duron 1200+ (rated at nearly a GHZ I think) for one of the servers, and it was excellent, and very very cheap as well.

[VisionIT]

Just a quick note regarding the Duron's mentioned by Sastraxi...

The duron's don't have Quantispeed technology, and therefore they run at the given speed.

IE
D1200 = 1200Mhz (or slightly higher)
D1300 = 1300Mhz (or slightly higher)

XP 1600's (1.3Ghz) are as cheap as the durons... and they do run Quantispeed. Much better option for people who love speed driven systems, although 1600's are really dated now! :)

Coppermine BTW, :rolleyes: WHAT A JOKE!

Regards,

Paul.

[BodwadUK]

Durons are very good budget processors and most motherboards supporting a Duron also support Athlons so you could get a board that supports both and a Duron until you can afford an athlon. Oh and Duron being faded out so be quick :D :D :D :D

Mhz speed doenst actually judge a processor by its speed, the athlon XP 1800 actually runs at 1.5ghz but in contrast to the pentium it is effectively equel to the 1.8ghz Pentium processor. :D :D :D GO AMD :p :p :p


Other system specs need to be looked at like ram in order to get the full effect from your processor anyway so processor isnt everything. (it just wont work without one :cool: :cool: :cool: )

[mendhak]

What is the difference between Athlon and Duron? I have absolutely no idea about these.

For what reasons would I opt for an Athlon/Duron, and which one of these is better?

[VisionIT]

Less L1 & L2 cache on Durons... making them slow and laggy! Athlon's have 256/512 cache, although the XP's & 64's have a different band of cache and therefore can't be compared to previous models.

Regards,

Paul.

[mendhak]

Hmm...

so that makes

Duron ~ Celeron
Athlon ~ Pentium.

You mentioned something about AMD processors not having Quantispeed. For reasons that are lost to me, I know that AMD has an equivalent (?) of Quantispeed, called Netburst.

That is all I know.

[VisionIT]

Er...

I think you have that backwards M8y...

AMD DO have quantispeed, strangly called Quantispeed :p

Netburst is fitted with Pentium's. AMD Durons don't have quantispeed, and neither do original athlons, but the XP's and AMD 64's do!

Take a look at the XP model 8 data sheet for more details.

Regards,

Paul.

[BodwadUK]

My Order Of preferance from cost - speed


Celeron - Duron - P4 - Athlon XP


Thats all you need to know isnt it??? :D :D :D :D

[mendhak]

Yep, That's all I need to know

VisionIT: No way in HELL am I going to be looking at a specs sheet :eek:

[Sastraxi]

P4s cost more than Athlon XPs though.... nowadays you'd be pretty wacky to get a P4.

[VisionIT]

It's only 200 sheets! :eek:

I'll send it to ya! :p

Regards,

Paul.

[JoshT]

The fastest available P4's do outperform the fastest available Athlon XP's. Hopefully AMD will fix this problem without having their chips cost as much.

[VisionIT]

They already have... :)

I can't tell you any prices just yet though. Rest assured... AMD 64's have already topped P4's 3 fold!

Regards,

Paul.

[JoshT]

I can go buy a P4 today, can't but an Athlon 64, problem not solved - Intel will also have faster chips out when AMD releases theirs whenever.

[VisionIT]

True :)

You could post that everyday for the next ten years... and you'de still have to wait for either brand to build a bigger, better model. Just be patient... and AMD will command the CPU market, promise.

Intel... greedy and well, they created the Celeron for god-sake!
AMD... cost effective, quality & quick, although they did release the K6-3 (Still don't know why?)

As regards P4's out-performing latest AMD's... i strongly disagree M8 (Sorry :) ). The AMD 3000+ easily blows Intel's P4 3.06 out of the water. Just benchmark 'em!

Regards,

Paul.

[BodwadUK]

AMD processors are much better than Intels and cheaper.

Intel are mainly around only because new people to PC's have heard about pentium's but not AMD processors so they assume the pentium is better.

Dont get me wrong Pentium do have a good processor but they shouldnt be considered at the front of the market because quite bluntly they are not. Ask any PC user and most will say AMD are better. :D :D :D :D


And Pentium have deals with microsoft (More so than AMD) that will stop any third party software vendor without a license (From Microsoft) from installing packages on most machines!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

P.s Cant remmeber whats its called but it is a chip on a motherboard that can be desabled (But wont as standard) and prevents a program without a special Key from working. Microsofts Idea and many others are jumping on the bandwagon because it sells as "Extra Security". DAMN RIPOFF IF YOU ASK ME!!!!

Microsoft have also started (with many more companies e.g Compaq, and i think intel) procedings that will make it illegal to distribute freeware without a license and that will really piss off alot of people if it gets through the courts!!!!!!:( :( :( :(


Damn sorry i have run off the subject and let my feelings get it the way

If any of these go through then F*** microsoft and Hail Linux and Illegal software vendors :D :D :D :D :D

[VisionIT]

Microsoft have also started (with many more companies e.g Compaq, and i think intel) procedings that will make it illegal to distribute freeware without a license and that will really piss off alot of people if it gets through the courts!!!!!!

Haven't heard that M8! It's damn stupid :o It'll be laughed out of court if it even gets that far. :)

Damn sorry i have run off the subject and let my feelings get it the way

Hey.... no probs. ;) Glad you told everyone about the Microsoft scandal. You're a public service, LOL :)

Those chip's your on about... are called EEPROM's. They can be flashed in the same way as your BIOS. Again though, we have ways here of wiping locked EEPROMS... and it's damn simple. Or, just convert the programs to ASM, and remove any references to the EEPROM!

I believe you can now create virtual EEPROM's which any package you create can make use of. It's just add's a virtual device to your system like VPC does, and read's data from it. Only the user who created it can modify the settings through an admin panel, which you'd obviously create :)

Kind Regards,

Paul.

P.S They could also be TTL chips, although it's very doubtful.

[JoshT]

You could post that everyday for the next ten years... and you'de still have to wait for either brand to build a bigger, better model. Just be patient... and AMD will command the CPU market, promise.

The Athlon 64 is at least 6-7 months away, but a lot a Americans will be getting their tax return in a month or so and have money to blow... (I'm perfectly happy with my Athlon XP 1700+ at home, myself)

As regards P4's out-performing latest AMD's... i strongly disagree M8 (Sorry ). The AMD 3000+ easily blows Intel's P4 3.06 out of the water. Just benchmark 'em! Benchmarks I've seen go either way for the 3000+. And AMD has lost much of its price advantage, and I suspect more commercial apps will be optimized for the P4.

[Sastraxi]

That "extra security" measure is called Palladium and it sucks.

And I'll add to the discussion of the 3000+; it seems to be going the way of the GeforceFX; weak to start, but when refined it will be amazing.

[VisionIT]

Originally posted by Sastraxi
And I'll add to the discussion of the 3000+; it seems to be going the way of the GeforceFX; weak to start, but when refined it will be amazing.

Fair comment ;)

The 3000+ is already a great processor, but it could and will do better in weeks to come.

Regards,

Paul.

[siyan]

Barton seems weak now, but once they ramp it up and hit 400FSB it will be quite good.

Barton will be AMD's chief moneymaker over the next 7 months or so - they will have to make sure it is a good product. Athlon 64 won't be released until September at last I heard.

Opteron, however, will be out shortly. Which makes me angry that AMD would wait to release Athlon 64 alongside a 64bit Windows XP....

[Sastraxi]

:( Don't they know that AMD makes up most of the Linux crowd, which is already begging for 64-bit?

[Zaei]

Originally posted by Sastraxi
That "extra security" measure is called Palladium and it sucks.

Id be really interested to know how a low level chip knows that those assembly instructions running through it are decoding an illegal DVD... maybe they've codenamed the project "Miss Cleo" :D

Z.

[mendhak]

Originally posted by Zaei
Id be really interested to know how a low level chip knows that those assembly instructions running through it are decoding an illegal DVD... maybe they've codenamed the project "Miss Cleo" :D

Z.

Actually, it'll be the hardware and the software working together to figure out what you're doing, or if anything's illegal.

[BodwadUK]

Palladium stops any program that doesnt have a specific security code from running on your machine. This means all freeware is effectively out and so is anything that is not approved by Microsoft (Windows Side).


THIS STINKS OF A

MONOPOLY


Microsoft can and will make billions more if freeware was extinguished, this is because freeware is the only way people can attract windows users. Look at Linux it is plausable that Microsoft could stop Linux booting up or if their court action against Freeware works Linux will be illegal because of the Kernel (Its Freeware And Nobody really owns rights to sell it!!!!)

If Microsoft etc get this through then it wont make a dam difference but will make illegal sites more common and may push users to goto Linux and actually damage Microsoft because people are becomming increasing more aware of the computer world and how much Microsoft is attempting to dominate it by controlling its users.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[mendhak]

But the stupid user will always exist.

[JoshT]

Hopefully Palladium will be easily disabled with a MB jumper or BIOS setting. Windows might refuse to run with it disabled, but no big loss there.

Athlon 64 won't be released until September at last I heard.

I believe it says that right on AMD's sites - and I'd bet that they'll be hard to come by for at least a month after that.

On a side note, anyone actually use one of the Via CPUs I've seen in cheap PCs?

[siyan]

Does AMD support Palladium? Lets hope not but something tells me otherwise...

And I have considered putting a Via C3 or Eden together, but its for a highly specialized environment (high ambient heat).

-C

[mendhak]

I don't think AMD will be supporting it. I do know that it's backed by several companies, so it will be brought upon us anyways...

I'm going to post an article I have about this...

[mendhak]

Here... found it:



What do you think? Is Palladium a new tool to control us? Or has it been created for our own 'good'? If its possible, feel free to discuss or ask questions...

For those of you who don't know much about Palladium, I've explained below.

What is Palladium
Palladium is actually a set of features incorporated into the operating system kernel, and the hardware, including the CPU, chipset and peripherals. According to Microsoft, "these features will give individuals and groups of users greater data security, personal privacy, and system integrity." More specifically, these features will reduce the risk of viruses, spyware and other attacks. Files stolen from your computer will be useless on another PC, since these have been encrypted by the hardware itself. In addition, Palladium will be supporting several other features such as setting documents to auto expire after a certain number of days, or being able to specify which users may view which portion of which file on your computer. The encryption used will be PC-specific, which means that even if an attack on the core of the system were successful, it would only be applicable to that one PC. The aim of this Microsoft-led initiative is security, and it plans it to such an extent that even the data travelling on the cable between your keyboard and CPU will be protected by the Palladium hardware for the keyboard.

For any of you techies out there, Palladium will also be offering page isolation, so that each piece of running software has the assurance that it will not be modified by any other running software or the kernel itself, and thus achieving protection from virii and trojans. Another highlighted feature is "sealed storage," which means that information can be securely stored and can be accessed only by the Palladium module which placed it there, or any other components which Palladium may deem as trustworthy.

Palladium makes the use of Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology, another thing you should know about. DRM restricts the use of files in order to protect the interests of copyright holders. DRM technologies can control file access (number of views, length of views), altering, sharing, copying, printing, and saving. These technologies may be contained within the operating system, program software, or in the actual hardware of a device. This is what Microsoft plans to implement with Palladium.

The implications of this include the fact that any new software you plan to install on your machine will have to be verified by a central DRM certification authority. In this case, it will be Microsoft (wonder of wonders :rolleyes: )

Conspiracy?

As I just mentioned, vendors will wield more control over certain aspects of your computer system. Let us take a look at a few possibilities with the implementation of Palladium:

There is a GUID (Globally Unique IDentifier) in that copy of Windows Media Player sitting on your machine, did you know that? Microsofts eBook Reader requires software activation. Microsoft can effectively trace the users, restrict them from sharing books with one another or prevent the user from running those files on the computer at all.

Also, Windows Media Player creates a log file of the content a user views, and "phones home" to a central server to obtain content titles. If the file is found to be pirated, it will be disabled, and you will be prevented from accessing your own content. This is an important development for copyright laws: copyright can regulate duplication of works to protect content owners. Now, copyright is being used as a justification to both protect content and to profile the consumers of content.

DRM, from the looks of it, will lead to a new practice, where each purchaser must reveal their identities to the software vendors, to prevent anonymous consumption of content (You can kiss that evaluation copy of WinZip goodbye). Revealing such information can result in price discrimination. The vendor may sell items at different costs to different prospective purchasers based upon the purchaser's identity and financial profile.

Many DRM systems will not allow a user to transfer content to portable devices, such as MP3 players.

Many DRM systems work only with Windows operating systems to the exclusion of Linux and Macintosh users, but we all knew that didn't we?

For small time software developers and programmers, they may not be able to run their own programs on their own machines. It sounds weird, but it's true.

As for Open Source Software, the same applies. Since OSS relies upon reverse engineering, some of which even interact with the hardware, they will be deemed illegal, since this is obviously against Palladium.

What about corporate muscle flexing? Of course! If MS-Word were ever to be seriously threatened by Staroffice, and a significant amount of users were using Palladium PCs, then Microsoft could roll out a policy change to the effect that Word documents would be sealed using keys that would be accessible to 'good' applications such as Excel, but not to 'bad' applications such as Star[office]

Similarly, if Netscape Navigator were to threaten Internet Explorer some day (stop laughing), Microsoft may simply refuse to certify Netscape software, citing reasons of 'non-compliance with a certain policy,' and that would be the end of it.

In yet another analogy, HP could just as easily force its printers to output low resolution documents if a genuine HP color cartridge was not used in the printer. This would certainly make some customers angry, but when you consider that HP makes its "printer" money on accessories, losing a customer who isn't purchasing their brand of cartridges is not really losing that much.

Governments will be able to arrange things so that all Word documents created on civil servants' PCs are `born classified' and can't be leaked electronically to journalists.

Pirated music can be remotely deleted.

Remote censorship is another attribute that needs attention: the mechanisms designed to delete pirated music under remote control may be used to delete documents that a court (or a software company) has decided are offensive - this could be anything from pornography to writings that criticise political leaders, maybe even this post in the future.

Palladium also helps Microsoft in that it makes it more expensive for a user to switch away from their products to others. That is the economic advantage of Palladium, for Microsoft as well as for the other participating companies.


How it affects us
It doesn't have to, but it probably will. The Internet will probably be divided into the 'haves' (Palladium PCs) and 'have-nots' (non-Palladium PCs). Content and services will cater to both these groups initially, but will gradually shift towards the haves, rendering the have-nots somewhat handicapped, if one were to compare the perspectives of today and then.

For those of us who rely upon MP3s as our prime source of audio entertainment, this will mean that only protected MP3s may be run on your PC. These MP3s will, of course, come at a price and cannot be shared.

Cheating on computer games will be difficult. Very, very difficult.

Freelance software developers will have to work for a company, else they're out of business.

The jokes of yesterday, some of which involved Microsoft deleting files on your hard disk, government looking in on your files etc. are a possibility with this technology.

There is an alternative, of course. To switch over to a platform which will refuse to comply with the TCPA and DRM standards. I'm positive that this will be Linux. I've heard that a TCPA-enabled version of GNU/Linux is being written currently, which will be the Linux equivalent of Palladium.

You could, also, stick to your present PCs and not go for an upgrade.

Of course, skeptics will remark that such technology has been created in the best interests of user security. That may be true, but greater emphasis has been laid upon corporate interests. You can expect the industry behemoths such as Intel, IBM and Microsoft to grow, at the expense of innovation though. Besides, what technology has not been abused?
One may naively assume that no entity will cross their 'ethical' limits and utilize the technology in any of the ways I've mentioned above. By citing reasons that may appeal to an individual, an effective veil will have been thrown over our eyes, whereby we will be lulled into a sense of security, oblivious to the fact that this very sense of security can (and will) be used against us. (Did someone say "PATRIOT Act"?)

If one were to take a step back and look at recent developments in our 'rights,' one will observe these rights being encroached upon, incrementally albeit.

Besides, when was the last time a technology was not abused?

I end this with a very fitting quotation:


This put Dan in a dilemma. He had to help her--but if he lent her his computer, she might read his books. Aside from the fact that you could go to prison for many years for letting someone else read your books, the very idea shocked him at first. Like everyone, he had been taught since elementary school that sharing books was nasty and wrong--something that only pirates would do.
--The Right to Read, Richard Stallman, 1996.



Microsoft Palladium (http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/features/2002/jul02/0724palladiumwp.asp)

TCPA (http://www.tcpa.org)

[Zaei]

....
Doesnt the usual virus/trojan execute BEFORE application code, ie, by inserting assembly code into the executable module, anyway?

Sounds like a load of balls to me...

Z.

[JoshT]

I thought both AMD and Intel will be supporting Palladium?

Maybe we should all start hitting eBay to stock up on whatever current stuff we can get cheap?

[siyan]

Palladium will be made irrelevant. It still relies on software.

[BodwadUK]

And can be switched off if you have the know how :D :D :D :D

[Sastraxi]

I agree, even if it becomes "big" someone will very soon start up a group destined to stop it, and will stop it soon, I think ;)

[BodwadUK]

It wont be properly in effect for a few years yet so dont start pooing in your pants just yet, alot can happen in this time :D :D :D :D

[mendhak]

Linux will shine at that time. :)

[siyan]

Originally posted by mendhak
Linux will shine at that time. :)

/me time to start learning

[BodwadUK]

What are some good apps for linux then??? Free preferably :D :D :D :D


I am thinking of installing Mandrake or Suse :) :)

[mendhak]

The way I see it, there are just two mainstream ones... Red Hat, and Mandrake.

Red Hat would be for the advanced/power users and Mandrake for the home (casual like) users.

[VisionIT]

We have both Mandrake 9.0 & Redhat 8.0 here, and they are both superb.

Lindows rocks :p

Redhat 8.0 --> 5 CD's (3 to install, 2 extra goodies which you WILL need)
Mandrake --> 3 CD's (2 to install (?), 1 extra goodies which again... you will need)

Mandrake took around 3 hours to download...
Redhat took around 5 1/2 hours...

Get it all from www.linuxiso.org

The links are pretty slow at Redhat.com , but they are well used every day!

Quick note for Gigabyte 7IXE users though...

You can't install Redhat on a CD-Rom through the secondary IDE with BIOS revision FAa. Just in-case anyone tries it, and thinks it's the disc.

Regards,

Paul.

[JoshT]

Originally posted by mendhak
The way I see it, there are just two mainstream ones... Red Hat, and Mandrake.

Red Hat would be for the advanced/power users and Mandrake for the home (casual like) users.

Hard core Linux users use Slackware or Debian.

If you like Linux, you might also try one of the OSS BSDs - FreeBSD, NEtBSD, OpenBSD.

OpenBSD lets you download the install floppy and install the files from their FTP or HTTP server. You need a NIC and a broadband connection, but its small enough where it doesn't take that much time.

[siyan]

RH8 looks very nice, and if you're used to windows its a great option to try out.

However, if you've never used linux before, be prepared to break a lot of installs.....

[Sastraxi]

Lol, I did it by trying to fix the FAAC/FAAD sources ;). Major pain. The hugely power-insane users (me... :D) use Gentoo, or if they are ultimately insane (not me... yet... ;)), they use LinuxFromScratch (you compile your own Linux). I have built an LFS system before, and shoot me, but it's fun.

[Sastraxi]

Oh, and to someone who said "I'll try Mandrake or Suse", steer CLEAR of SuSE. YaST has so many problems it's not funny... Mandrake is perfect for the beginner =).

[BodwadUK]

Oh that what my brother uses (Suse) and i want to try something different anyway but thank you for the advice all. I have downloaded Mandrake but i am getting Red Hat as well so its a toss up between the two. :D :D :D

What about apps for Linux, What is there available???

[mendhak]

I'm wondering too... is there an MSN Messenger for Linux?

[JoshT]

Originally posted by mendhak
I'm wondering too... is there an MSN Messenger for Linux?

http://linux.about.com/cs/instantmessaging/

[JoshT]

Originally posted by BodwadUK

What about apps for Linux, What is there available???

OpenOffice.org
Mozilla
etc

Plus all sorts of stuff for IT people