Some insults & questions about consciousness.

[Guv]

It is incredible that people who cannot spell simple words and could not pass a 7th grade English grammar test think they have a worthwhile opinion about esoteric subjects.

Evolution, creation, proofs of God's existence/non-existence, AI, et cetera are not trivial subjects. Many of the comments and opinions posted on these subjects are either naive or utter nonsense.

In particular I have seen AI systems described as consisting of an incredible number of If-Then-Else Type statements. A person with that view of AI has never come close to understanding any AI application.

Now the question after a bit of background. In prehistoric computer era, a program which beat the world chess champion would by definition be considered AI of a high degree. The actual program does not come close to being AI, nor is it structured around a lot of If-Then-Else Statements.

Big Blue beat the world champion without a hint of conscious behavior. There was nothing there saying things like "I am playing Chess" --- "I would rather be doing something else" --- "I think I am going to win this game".

Is consciousness necessary for intelligent behavior? While not AI, the ability to play world-class chess simulates a type of intelligent behavior. If that can be done without consciousness, what intellegent behavior cannot be done without consciousness?

Next, I believe that somebody will someday create a computer (perhaps not using electronic components) which has consciousness. However, I cannot imagine being able to decide whether a computer has consciousness.I believe other people have consciousness because I believe I have it and because others seem similar to me in so many ways, I cannot believe that they are not conscious. My belief in the consciousness of others is highly subjective & due to thought processes internal to myself. I cannot imagine an objective test which would validate the consciousness of something non-biological in origin. Can any of you?

[Sam Finch]

It is incredible that people who cannot spell simple words and could not pass a 7th grade English grammar test think they have a worthwhile opinion about esoteric subjects.

I can't spell because I'm dyslexic. Many people on this forum use english as their second or third language. Why should anyone's opinions be judged on something as trivial as spelling and grammer?

In particular I have seen AI systems described as consisting of an incredible number of If-Then-Else Type statements. A person with that view of AI has never come close to understanding any AI application.

On what do you base your opinion that AI cannot be achieved simply with If Else statements? Surely all the brain does is check if certain hormones are present and certain neurones are firing and then fire a particular neurones etc.

Just because we havn't come close yet doesn't mean we are on the wrong track, In Fact useing this "prehistoric" view people have come quite close to AI, Computers have been made using this sort of technology that, as a side effect of doing the tasks that they were built for, they were observed to dream while not in use. If this isn't coming close to conciousness then I don't know what is.

Your chess computer, I don't think playing chess requires itellegence at all, In fact it would be possible to write a book where you turned to page one and were faced with all the possible moves with page numbers next to them, select a move and turn to that page number and that page tells you the books move and all the moves you could do followed by page numbers. In fact if this book were written properly it would never loose, and unless the player knew that he'she was playing a book it could probably beat any human chess player ever. (In Practice this book would fill millions of volumes and would take centuries to write.)

I don't think the point of the forums is actually to answer the questions discussed, it's just people having an interesting discussion, why should we exclude peiople just because their opinions are in your opinion flawed?

[noone]

Thank you Sam for saying what I was thinking much more clearly and intelligently then I would have :)

[Guv]

I apologize to all dyslexics who post here.

I also apologize to those for whom English is a second language. When I was very young, my father asked me to speak some Norwegian after I made fun of an immigrant. He then pointed out that the immigrant spoke two languages, while I only spoke one.

I do not apologize for suggesting that many Posters to this forum express naive opinions about esoteric subjects which they do not understand.

"Computers have been made using this sort of technology that, as a side effect of doing the tasks that they were built for, they were observed to dream while not in use. If this isn't coming close to conciousness then I don't know what is."

The above statement is fascinating if true, which I doubt. Sounds like a Twilight Zone episode to me, not something real. Perhaps it was from one of Nimroy's Pseudo-science TV shows. What computer program behaved as described above? Can anyone specify who built said computer? What company was responsible for the programming? How did they determine that the computer was dreaming?

My opinions on AI are based on study of various attempts to implement AI, mostly applied to various games. I have studied fairly detailed descriptions of the structure of Big Blue's programming. As a start, try reading "Computer Gamesmanship" by David Levy (Simon & Schuster). None of the AI efforts I have read about are structured around a huge number of If-Then-Else statements. Many use Von Neumann MiniMax strategy, simulated neural networks, game trees, position evaluation functions, post analysis of heuristic play, and various other techniques. The If-then-Else Statements are almost incidental to the overall structure of most AI programs described in various articles. If-Then-Else statements can be used as the basis for playing Tic-Tac-Toe, but are impractical as the basic structure for more complex games.

The major obstacle to AI is lack of an understanding of how the human brain functions. If you cannot describe what you want to do, it is difficult to write a program to do it. For example, current Bridge playing programs cannot do better than mediocre humans, while a chess playing program beat the world champion. Apparently there is no known description of a good basic approach to expert bridge play, comparable to the good position-evaluation function used by chess playing programs.

Does anybody have an opinion on how to decide whether or not some non-human entity has consciousness?

[jdavison]

Cambridge International Dictionary of English

conscious (THINKING) adjective
awake, thinking and aware of what is happening around you.

Does this help at all. I am also dyslexic.

[Iain17]

Guv

I don’t particularly want to rain on your parade, but your grammar is hardly perfect is it. It is nigh on an impossibility to write a post that is grammatically perfect. The use of commas is a good example, and is in my opinion possibly the hardest part to get entirely correct.

As for spelling, I am sure that anyone can use a spell checker.


I am guessing from your signature that you are a Star Trek fan. Well did you know that the phrase “To boldly go where no man has gone before.” is technically considered grammatically incorrect? It is in fact a split infinitive and should read, “To go boldly where no man has gone before.” Just a useless bit of trivia for you. ;)

[Tyler from Alaska]

Well put Iain17!

[HarryW]

I often read prose that I've written, that's been grammar-checked and corrected by Word or Wordperfect or some such word processor, and think it makes less sense than what was there in the first place. Besides, different areas use language differently, I don't think 'standard' english is very relevant except for in legal documents. I've always had the most trouble with semicolons.

What is a split infinitive?

[Fox]

He means that to go was split up into to boldly go... to go is an infinitive as to work or to buy are (the 'standard' form of a verb).

[HarryW]

Bloody hell, it takes someone from Switzerland to tell me something about the English language ;)

How can people know so many languages?!? I know a guy who speaks fluent English, Dutch, German and French. It's insane. I can barely speak English :D

[HarryW]

Oh yeah I forgot...

Thanks Fox ;) As always, proving that you know everything.

So do you think we'll ever create AI more intelligent than us humans? Come on get involved! This is a heated debate! ;)

[Benjimin]

Wel sory for me bad Gammar. Wheir not all born in Yankie land, Britan or Auzzie land u know.

Guv, In Search Of what I great show :) :)
Has anyone heard that great Leonard Nimoy version of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" or what about William Shatner version of "Mr Tumberine Man". Guarantee hours of amusement.