Why are young developers doubted due to their age?

[kb244]

I myself am 19 (and know lots of friends who are young as 15 trying for their MCSE) I am familiar with a number of development languages, Visual Basic and Active Server Pages are my main focus on the job, but I am also familiar with almost all the Visual basic versions (yes even the VB-DOS) , also with C++, both Microsoft and Borland based, and I am aquainted with least a few other languages, I normally post all the languages I am confortable with at the bottom of my signatures when posting over at tektips. A Fellow "Programmer" states :

"kb you can't seriously only be 19?! You know all those languages? Parlez-vous francais?
John Durbin
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253
"

I explained how over the past 5 or 6 years I "messed" with languages throughout highschool , and had some AP courses on C++ duriong my senior year as well as furthering my knowledge in my current job, yet he replies.

"oh so like I've messed with a blonde, burnette, and redhead, and like means I have no understanding of women"

I had his post redflaged since they wernt relevent to the post where I was helping someone with a problem, but I wonder why most people will doubt the abilities based on your age, I belive now in the 90s( and first year of this new century) that the internet had played a very powerful role in my progress, and dont ask where I got the tools to experiement with (you already know) to me he seems to be old of those old coders who doubht anyone can become familiar with anything computer-wise in such short periods of time, anyone care to comment on the issue?

PS: I have no idea what he was trying to say about his last reply.

[Gen-X]

I hear you...

I'm 28 and STILL I get people doubting my ability due to my age... it isn't just the 19 year olds ;-)

When I tell people I started programming on a Commodore 64 at the age of 5 they all look at me like I am absolutely mad!!!

The problem is that people of the "older" generation immediately associate "youth" with "naivety". They cannot possibly believe someone younger can know more because they themselves didn't learn as much.

We live in the information age where the most valuable asset is the ability to ADAPT. Gone are the days when you did COBOL and nothing else for 30 years... holding your head high and claiming you are an "expert" in Cobol. Now you say I have done x,y,z, a and b and you hold your head high because you can adapt to ANYTHING you are given.

I myself know 12 languages and probably 5-6 databases as well as being able to tell ANYONE at ANY time "Heck, If I dont know it... give me a week and its mine".

I don't know if they have this saying in the rest of the world but here in Australia we have what we call "slash" kids. When you ask them what they do for a living they say Waiter "slash" Lawyer "slash" Barman... Its the age of mutli-skills.

I mean look at me... I have a company called "Gen-X Consulting"... which stands for "Generation-X". I'm an IT consultant being paid in the top 5% in the state I live and I am probably the youngest of all of them. I blade (in-line skates) like crazy, have shocking blonde/white hair, a nipple ring and a tattoo of a tiger on my back. I do body building and club myself to death every weekend. Looking at me you wouldn't in your wildest dreams think that I am a systems analyst...

What you are hearing from these other people is "fear"... the "fear" that someone younger than them has more skills than they do and that the more obvious it becomes the more likely they wont get a job in the future.

Its the whole reason why middle-aged management spend more time securing their jobs than they actually do their work... "fear"

[kb244]

I totally agree, also most of the older generation had to pay for their education, they could never think a kid could be rich enough or smart enough to go through collecge to get the same "degree" they had. also I agree with you on the "Heck, If I dont know it... give me a week and its mine". I myself am constantly learning something new on the job when its required, I work with 2 main databases as well for the webprogramming, I've ran into some people who criticized these forums, and stating something like, if you want help pay for it, hmm back in the days of paying for quick tech support, now days we all support each other, for most of the yougth I know, it's like game, see who can do more, just like its a game to compare our computer hardware "Well I got this and this and this..." hehe. thanks for your reply.

[parksie]

Younger people have the advantage that it doesn't matter what it is, they'll know more about it than anyone else within a few days - mainly through fiddling. Then they leave all the older people in the dust.

[jdavison]

Gen-X is 100 percent right! I fortuantely work with a group that respects your abilities no matter what your age but my previous employers looked down at me because I am only 27. Now I do mostly ASP and vb apps. They constantly through things I have no idea how to do and I tell them Sure, no problem and give them an approx time frame and off I go. The real trick to the business I found is its not what you know but how well you can figure it out. If you can do that well you'll get the respect you deserve. Just don't let them get to ya.

Well although I don't agree with Gen-x when it comes to his biblical point of view, I do agree with what he said about age and work in general. I'm 30. I started learning how a VIC-20 works at the age of 10. I know that the commadore-64 didn't come out until the early 80s so Gen-X saying he started on it at the age of 5 is totally false. But I do know what it's like to start out young and others talk down to you cuzz of the "you don't know nothin" syndrome.

I only wanted to say, I understand and I agree that if the older ones were to open their eyes, and see that some of the younger ones are really trying, then maybe they would get a different view of them. I for one use the younger ones on my projects. I find that they like to test and experiment. Which in turn helps me out in testing ideas etc... I know that I wouldn't have gotten this far without some of the yournger ones.. So... Kudos to you young ones.. keep up the learning.. cuzz as the old saying goes...

"Knowledge is Power"

:)

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

Thanks for pointing that out, your right about the C64 not coming out until the early 80's, That means I must have been 8 or 9 instead of 5.... my mistake.

Appologies


I have a question for you though...

One of the reasons I believe people don't give the younger people credit for their abilities is that the older people think something along the lines of "How can this person know MORE than me, I have been here longer and have studied longer and have done it longer... There is no way this person could know something more/better/wiser than me".

Isn't that EXACTLY what the religious people are doing? They believe because their religion has been around for so long that anyone "younger" coming along and saying "I see something you don't" is considered to be ignorant or they just don't know what they are talking about????

[Edited by Gen-X on 07-09-2000 at 11:14 PM]

Heh.. I was just agreeing with you about age, but I won't be duped into going into a religious discussion with you.. I would rather keep the conversation here at the Visual Basic Forum just that.. about VB. VB-World didn't make this site to be a biblical discussion group. I will say this though.. I have read everything here at the site related to the bible.. so I have read what you think on the subject of religion. I personally hate religion, but I love the bible. I only made my little statement above about my not agreeing with your biblical beleifs so as to keep the others from thinking i'm siding with you on that subject.. cuzz i'm not. nuff said... let's keep this conversation positive.. :)

On another note.. I noticed your URL to your web site and when I went to check it out I got this Error..

Method Not Allowed

The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL /main.phtml.


It then is supposed to put the info of the browser etc.. into your browser.dat file. I viewed this file.. it's not very big since others have probably gotten this error and never actualy was able to view your site. (Yes, I am not just a VB programmer. :) ) I thought out of kindness you would want to know about this and would want to fix it. :)

[Gen-X]

Do you know much about internet programming?

Perhaps if you did you would realise the reason the website isn't running is because the ISP that I am going through has removed PHP from their server.

Alas tis neither my fault nor am I able to correct it... So I am in the process of registering my own domain.


But then again I am sure you would have already known that seeing how "skilled" you are in being able to reverse engineer what I was doing thinking it something to smile about ;)

[Mongo]

Fellow stone-cutters, oops, code-cutters, I wouldn't waste much energy feeling looked down upon due to your age. As you get more experience in this dubious realworld, the excuses don't get better. They (the lame excuses) only change to having/not having a degree, having/not having an advanced degree, having/not having the right type of degree from the right institution, the number of degrees, your gender, sexual-orientation, height, race, religion, hair color, the size of your nose, yada, yada. The list is endless. If you can, gain an awareness of the inequalities, build your integrity and teach others through leading by example.

Aw, sounding too soapbox. Why aren't you kids in bed?!?! *smirk* I know, "Sleep is for those who can't program."

[benski]

Mongo-


I second that. Superbly Put. :D

[Jamagei]

I am 19 and I applied to quite a few jobs in programming. I eventually got a job in vb programming at a small company in which I work work with just one person who is about 27 and he is teaching me more and more each day about networks and stuff. I only really started with computers (not programming) about 4 years ago. I only recently got my a-level in computing (that's all i got.) I also know lots about hardware systems and stuff like that (why don't i send all a C.V prattling on like this). Anyway he could see this and thus employed me. You have just gotta find someone from the right sort of generation to employ you. They understand the 'give me a week' idea. But when I tried for a bigger company with lots of older programmers (i actually know quite a few people at the co.) they turned me down. TWICE!!

[Edited by Jamagei on 07-10-2000 at 07:58 AM]

[HarryW]

Has anybody ever seen the series on TV of StarGate? Well, Gen-X reminds me of the woman.

Hey I don't mean it quite that way (honest ;) ) I say it because she says at the start that she's got a PhD, she's fantastic, she was a Gulf War bomber pilot for 18 months etc etc. and she's like 25. She's not a bad looker either, obviously. I mean, come on ;)

Anyway, I think that description probably needs toning down a little. At least that's what I'll think until I see him on telly as Mr Universe, or whatever ;)

*Ahem* Sorry, just speaking my mind.

I personally don't think its much of a problem. If you're in the IT sector then you're most likely going to be employed by either older people who know little about it (read: management) or by knowledgeable younger people. You might get an ego problem from the older knowledgeable people, but to be honest if they have an ego problem I don't want to work with them.

If someone thinks I'm capable of less than I am, then it's just cool to see their reaction to what I CAN do ;)

Well that's it, I'm done.

[Gen-X]

Actually there are a few different kinds of people you will meet in the IT industry.

1. Management
Usually but not always older. More often than not (unless the IT manager) has absolutely no idea whatsoever about the work you do and therefor has to defer to what they DO know and that is to compare the wage you are getting with the wage THEY are getting and make a judgement call.

I have actually see managers refuse to take on certain contractors because it would mean they are being paid more than said manager and he didn't like it. This is typical middle-age syndrome of protecting your job rather than actually doing the work.

2. Fellow Contractors
Really couldn't care less who/what you are as long as you don't interfere with them getting their 37-40 hours a week completed ;)

3. Perminent Staff
Again not always... but sometimes these people will be highly offended at your presence because you are doing work they thought they could pull off... and invariably it was taken off them because they failed. These people are already upset having realised their skill level is severely lacking and so if you have ANY excuse for them to winge and complain (such as age) they will try and exploit it to see you fail because it attempts to prove they weren't so bad after all.


You "usually" (I really cant stress this enough because I am sure there are people who fit into one of the above who will protest) don't find "knowledgable young people" because they are "knowledgable" enough to not get stuck there perminantly (unless they are totally green) and go contracting.


HarryW
Thanks for the erm.... um.... compliment... I think. Funny you should mention Mr Universe... it was one of my nicknames in high school ;)

[HarryW]

Oh my God, I didn't mean to fuel the ego! *Slaps head*

;)

It wasn't exactly a compliment, more like a scepticism, but take it how you will.


*Chuckles* I'm sure that was one of MANY nicknames you had at school ;) You would have had plenty if you'd gone to my school I can tell ya hehe

No offense *Cackle* I'm just kidding.

[Gen-X]

The funny thing is Harry... when you go through puberty at 10 and have a voice deeper than the teachers and stand 6' tall by the time you are 14 people don't tend to give you nicknames.

Of course I stopped growing taller and they all caught up but the effect was already instilled in them.

Its the funniest thing... I have never been bothered by people in my whole life, either school or night clubs or anywhere. :)

[tweekmonster]

How bout all us younger people start our own software company and show them old farts a thing or two :). It wouldn't be hard. People want the same functions...always with more options (of course).

[Jamagei]

GEN-X

do you ever post a reply without claiming how big and strong and clever you are?

so you might be bigger in real life but in here we don't care about real life i doesn't and physically can't affect us on-line. so veiled threats don't work. in chatrooms and forums the sharpest mind wins. You telling us how big you are does nothing but make me think "what an egotist." I do not claim to be best at everything. I am not opinionated about trivial matters, especially when they don't hurt anyone e.g. religion (that is here in the future and is not a start for debate so don't do it.) so when you post replies why don't you just be nice and answer the question objectively and not subjectively. now if you are as intelligent as you say you will be able to do that.

P.S. capacitors HAHA!

[kb244]

Funny postings Gen-X

oh and tweekmonster
I would try that, yet, I know computers, and programming, and so forth, I wouldnt have the capital, business learning, and such to manage a bisuness but I like your train of thinking hehe. Right now I got my computer triple booting at home (Win98, Win2k Pro, Mandrake 7.1 Linux)

I'll probally be knocking off Win2k to make more room for my Mandrake partition, no offence but I find Mandrake 7.1 to be a hell of alot better distro than RH 6.2(I downloaded RH6.2 first because I Couldnt find a copy of mandrake)

in any case Its not so much a problem from my own Supperiors, I work in a small copany , just me , my CEO , 2 Summer developers(working for the summer then back to college in 5 weeks) ,2 other perm guys they threw downto the State building and My lead developer, who helps cordinate everything, all of us except for the CEO and his wife arnt even older than 30, its a small company, we all know our stuff, and we exchange, Brian(one of our new perm guys) comming from a larger company will say that the huge Doubtful ego will come from the larger people who dont know anything but management, or it'll come from the older always been programming people, who know Cobol but cant imagine some small guy learning something better and faster, in about eh 4 weeks.

I get the problem mostly from aquaintants, you know the other usual people, which I am overly friendly about to , but have the gut feeling that I'm just another "kid" who thinks he knows it all hehe, but I submited this thread as to get a response from others who have run into the same problem, also tweekmonster, we dont want to grow up to be like those older guys who will doubt the youth, some of us will you know. Well anyways Thanks for all your comments, feel free to add more.

"The more we learn, the more we realize how little we know"

[tweekmonster]

--Capital? Business learning? The internet is the office of the future, and our ties will soon be worn as a belt. The only "capital" an internet co. will need is a computer, a compiler or 2, and a good web host (to solicit the goods). "But TweekMONSTER, what about the money for the boxes for the software? blah? blah? blah?" We could be a software co. that's "environmenatlly aware", besides, Active Download (all rights reserved [not by me]) will be replacing them boxes.

--And doubt the youth of the future? that'll never be me. My programming vinge started when i was 11, now i'm 20. I would support the future youth rather than doubt them

[HarryW]

LOL!

Like I said, you DIDN'T go to my school! There was a guy ther who stood 6' 4" at 12, and he had plenty of nicknames ;)

I find your statement that you've never been bothered very odd, since in all my experiences it's the biggest guy who gets picked on the most. It's a matter of ego, that's the whole reason they make trouble, their ego. What's the fun in saying 'yeah I kicked this guy's ass, he was a paraplegic blind thalydamite victim, you shoulda seen me!'

Do us all a favour, right, and leave it out? Either that or we all drop our trousers and measure up right now, and get it over with ;)

[Gen-X]

Jamagei


so when you post replies why don't you just be nice and answer the question objectively and not subjectively. now if you are as intelligent as you say you will be able to do that.


Ever heard the saying "Whats good for the Goose"?

As for capacitors it was an honest mistake.... but then I guess you are going to tell me that the great Jamagei NEVER makes mistakes nor has the "capacity" to accept when other people make them?

I say it like it is, its called "truth" and if you read it like "bigger, stronger, more clever" then doesn't it say more about YOU than it does about me? I said "6 foot tall" and you say "bigger".... I never said that was either I just said "6 foot tall"... You said to NOT be subjective and yet you made a SUBJECTIVE determination that 6' was tall, that I consider myself intelligent and that I am stronger....

So why should I listen to a hypocrit?

Harry

Ok boy, whip it out then and I will go get my telescope :D

PS: I could tell you more of why I wasn't picked on but then certain "objective" people on this thread would consider me bignoting myself again, so to protect his delicate sensibilities I will not bother.

[Jamagei]

why is it that when i politey ask someone to be more objective and have a look around them (alright you have a point i was being subjective about you and therefore a hypocrite and i apologise) but then when harryw likens you too a woman in one thread and then says that you are not correct he gets nothing!! i don't get it. i know that you are a clever guy from some off the other threads that you have written. i don't understand some off the stuff you type but the general gist off it says a lot about you.

also when you said that you started puberty before everyone and you were 6' when you were 14 that says to me "i am bigger than you" plus with the bodybuilding thing thrown in that just sounds too much to me that you are saying "i am built like a brick-****house. but that is just my subjective opinion. c'est la vie!

[HarryW]

Jamagei is right, you volunteered the information, nobody asked for any measurements. The simple fact that it was brought up by you implies vanity on your part.

And by the way I could start saying some really personally insulting things from what you said, in retaliation for your telescope gag (I know you were j/k... I hope *Evil grin*) but I won't cos this isn't the place for it.

Btw that is I think the first time you have called me Harry instead of HarryW. Well done, you figured out my name from my heavily encrypted username, I was hoping people would ;) (I prefer to be called Harry, that's what my signature is for)

No what on earth does 'What's good for the goose' mean? Vitamin tablets? Plenty of fibre? Regular beak-brushing?

[Gen-X]

Jamagei

One of my many ;) character flaws is that I don't take "advice" well from people who aren't actually using the advice themselves... (which probably means there are times I don't take advice well from myself but thats my own battle).

The fact you admitted you were being subjective as well is enough to make me sit up and take notice of what you say.

I understand that when I said I went through puberty early and was 6' at 14 you read "I am bigger than you"... but I actually am not happy about the situation. What I meant was "I had more problems as a result". I had teachers take me aside and SCOLD me because a game of killer ball on the oval at lunchtime turned into people getting hurt becaue of my size... That wasn't any fun. I had to watch every last little thing I did and as you can imagine there wasn't many girls that were comfortable eough being around someone who could pick them up with one arm... Its one part of my childhood that I really truely HATE.

But I am sure some people will read it and still subjectively say I am bignoting myself :(

As for the body building part that was said specifically in reference to me being similar to Billy Idol and it was stated simply to indicate that which differs between us.

Harry

Jamagei is right, you volunteered the information, nobody asked for any measurements. The simple fact that it was brought up by you implies vanity on your part.


Is that how it works?
Well then I guess I understand where I am going wrong. I didn't realise that simply telling factual details about myself at points when they are relevant was vanity... Here I was thinking vanity was all about having incredibly high opinions about yourself and not being able to wait to tell every living soul about it...

I could say the fact you gave me the "impression" about measuring up would make you the victor is vanity as well... but you were just making a joke.

So I guess thats what it comes down to. Say something but SHEILD it in a joke or else people will think you are vane. This is something I hate about human behaviour and especially about male behaviour.... hide everything behind a joke ;)


And by the way I could start saying some really personally insulting things from what you said, in retaliation for your telescope gag (I know you were j/k... I hope *Evil grin*) but I won't cos this isn't the place for it


Hence the reason I chose to diffuse the response by joking back... like I said, thats how male human behaviour usually works :)


Btw that is I think the first time you have called me Harry instead of HarryW


I like the sarcasm... reminds me of someone I know ;)


No what on earth does 'What's good for the goose' mean?


My first thought was that you were having me on here... then I realised you might not be in the same country and the turn of phrase might not exist in your neck of the woods. Therefor I am deciding that you truely don't know what it means...

The phrase is "What is good for the good is good for the gander". It means that if its good enough for me then its good enough for you and was said in relation to someone asking me to be objective instead of subjective when they themselves were being subjective.

I could explain where it comes from but that isn't a very nice tale and it involves animals being hurt :D

[Edited by Gen-X on 07-12-2000 at 09:37 PM]

[catocom]

The problem is that people of the "older" generation immediately associate "youth" with "naivety". They cannot possibly believe someone younger can know more because they themselves didn't learn as much

I am 35, and I think Matthew Gates who isn't even 16 yet
is way smarter at programming that me!!

I learn something new every day, often by someone
younger than me!!

I don't doubt anybody's ability on anything because
of their age.

Things change all the time(especially in the computer field)

I quit school when I was 16 and got wild.
(did go back and get my GED though)
I don't have any colledge & very little tech school,
(on small engine repair)
But I can build computers from the ground up...and so on,
and so forth, but what I'm getting at is I've basicly
taught myself.
Don't get me wrong I think School is great, and am not
knocking it at all, it's more important know than ever.
As I said(Things change all the time).

As someone else said in this forum"You may be smarter
in one, or more areas than me, but I may be smarter
in another."
I personaly don't discount anything anybody says simply
because I think I know more ,or am older than they are.

I would like to be a little younger myself.
Anybody know where the "Fountain of Youth" is?

So Please Don't catagorize me as being pessimistic,
just because of MY AGE!! Thank you..



[Edited by catocom on 07-12-2000 at 08:24 PM]

[Gen-X]

catocom

Do you consider yourself "typical" of someone your age?


If not then why did you think what I said was even SLIGHTLY related to YOU?


I said "in general" and "on average"... If you personally happen to be different to the norm then congratulations and well done!!!!

That doesn't mean you start personalizing it by going *I*, *I*, *I* and then not thinking it is a common fact.


Its nothing "personal" so don't make it

[catocom]

I do consider my self an average, general, typical
American, but I do apoligize for thinking of
the world as a whole.

I guess it may be that way in Australia.

[Gen-X]

Firstly your American so that makes you anything but average ;)

Secondly your only 35 so I am not so sure I would class you in the "old" category we are talking about

And lastly.... Your still American ;)



But honestly, I am basing the views that I have mentioned after being in the workforce since I was 10, working for my parents in a newsagency and having staff more than twice my age doubting my skills simply because I was younger. The people who had the BIGGEST problem with the fact I was their manager were those people who were 45+ and they were almost "galled" by working under someone so young.

This view continued when I completed my university degree and went out into the technical world, from bosses who thought "green graduate" to managers who thought me incapable of responsibility. All of them failed to realise I had probably managed for longer than they had completely discounting the skills I had aquired prior to university.

When I became a contract this "trend" continued even further with job agencies and clients alike all looking to LOWER my rate for no other reason than they felt I didn't have the experience or the knowledge. Each one of them ended up astounded at the end results and commented that I was more effective and more productive than people twice my age who were on twice the rate.

Even now at 28 I still get the occasional retrograde who spouts off how they have been in the industry 30 years and when we compare resumes my list of skills and knowledge almost tripples theirs and they shut up pretty quickly.

The world isn't about how "LONG" you have known something any more (gone are the days when it was considered trendy to have done nothing but COBAL for 30 years), but how "ADAPTIVE" you are to learning new things. THAT is where the respect should lie for a person... not their age under the false apprehension that only being above the age of 40 gives you the skills required to perform some job.

The "average" computer programmer who is over 40 will probably have 2-3 languages under their belt while the New Blood will have 10-12 languages and probably several DB environments thrown in as well. When you ask these older people to try something new their answer is more often "I wouldn't know how" where as the youth of today say "Give it to me! I'll have it sussed in a week"

I started my own company last year and when people ask and I tell them how well it is doing they have to ask twice about what my age is. Then it usually follows them asking me where I live, what car I drive etc, etc and at some point they come to the misguided belief that I must have had all these things "dropped" in my lap and that I couldnt' possibly have actually worked for them or "earned" them from my own abilities.

Their loss... I'll just head home and jump in the spa and forget about all of them with their suburban houses and white picket fenses trying to feed their 2.3 kids and moaning and groaning that life isn't fair and they are hard done by.

Hey, How did that soapbox get under my feet???
:D

[catocom]

Originally posted by Gen-X
The world isn't about how "LONG" you have known something any more (gone are the days when it was considered trendy to have done nothing but COBAL for 30 years), but how "ADAPTIVE" you are to learning new things. THAT is where the respect should lie for a person... not their age under the false apprehension that only being above the age of 40 gives you the skills required to perform some job.
:D [/B]

I agree whole heartedly with you on that note.

When I first started programming GCode for CNC equipment
in a machine shop only about 10 years ago, the program
use to complile the program was primative, but still
costed over $10,000 now you can get a cad/cam program
that will blow that one away for $1,000 or less!

I tried to get the owner to upgrade in 1995 but he wouldn't.
the next year his main computer hard disk totally trashed.
He finally got the program I had suggested, only by that
time I was no longer working there.

He seems to actually respect me more since I quit.
Go figure?

[jdavison]

Again I think Gen-X is completely right. It doesn't matter how long you have been doing anything anymore but how quickly you can learn something. Things in the computer industry seem to change quicker and quicker to the point experience is almost irelavent anymore. Seniors seem to be threatened by this but that is a general statement and not meant to refer to specific individuals as I work with some really great senior consultants currently.

[absalom]

I am never doubted because of My age I am 13 and have my MCSD and MCSE and trying for an A+ certification maybe that is why I don't get doubted but hey I have been fairly well off for someone my age

[Gen-X]

No offense is meant in saying this....


But I hardly consider MCSD and MCSE as being a qualification high enough to merrit either acceptance or doubt of a persons skills....

Its like saying I have a certificate because I changed a car tyre once and that people don't doubt my ability to be a mechanic.

I think Most people who have been using PC's for a few years (and I do mean USE and not just fumble around with) would be practically assured of getting those certificates without a blind bit of study. As long as you can say "Microsoft is the Best" you already have a 50% mark ;)

[kb244]

what if you didnt have those certifications, would you be seriously doubted then( I know when some people thing of 13, they think "oh gee wow you're getting into Qbasic" )

right now I have no certifications, other than whats at brainbench.com (That free cert site)

also Microsoft Exams have been depreciated of value over the years, for example, the new win2k Cert doesnt even require that you know TCP/IP , they say "Let win2k handle it".

Also Microsoft isnt always the best, different useage may be better in other OSes, for example, I've used Mac, Windows, Linux (btw I love mandrake 7.1 distro) I have used a 486/25 SX for 5 years, learned everything about it, in and out, (went to Pent/100, then K6-2/450, now at a Athlon/750 powerhouse) there isnt much of a time , where I wont know every inch of my PC, I feel the broader knowledge I have, the more flexible I am in any position, I can get placed in, sticking your nose in a 60$ book, to cram for an exam, is hardly my definition of "knowing it" but in any case, I would be doubting your knowledge, but for arugment sakes, regardless of age, a MCSD doenst really show much(for all I know is that it could be a simple Administering Win98, and some other cert , since it takes 2 exams to get an MCSD) Gen-X is correct on that one part, Most of microsoft's exams, are not based strictly on the language, or task at hand, for example, studying for the Web Applications using Visual Interdev 6 exam, I found that 80% of the exam was based on Terminology, and microsoft's way of thinking, and microsoft's way of project managment, the 10% would be the IDE (knowing where all the menus are and buttons and what not) and another 10% would be actual syntax, which mainly consisited of knowing how to open a SQL Recordset from an ASP. I can belive you're trying for an A+ cert, since it's based on hardware, and has multiple sponsers, they wont be as Bias.

[oetje]

I'm programming in VB for 3 years and normally I never tell people on the internet that I'm 12.

[kb244]

If in person you were approached, you cant exactly hide your age in person.

If in person you were approached, you cant exactly hide your age in person.


Yeah, that sucks, I have been looking for a job all summer, but since I am 13, nobody will even let me show them what I can do...
Although I look like I am about 16 or 17(I am about 6 feet tall) its not like I can lie to the people telling them I am 16.

I really want to get a summer job, and if I dont find one soon, I wont be able to get one, because school starts in about a month.

ok, this is kind of off the subject, but is there anyplace where I can get an "online job" where I just do stuff on my computer for people??
I havent really heard of that, but I am sure its being done...

and I dont think it is fair I cant get a job,
I am 13, SOOOOOOOO.
I know
Visual Basic, HTML, JavaScrit, a little perl, C, a little C++, quite a bit of SQL, quite a bit of ASP, I know how to use Flash, I know API, I know a little bit about database(in VB), I know a little PHP, and I am learning XML,
shouldnt I be able to get at least a $5 an hour job?
even if I list all my skills, nobody EVER hires me, they dont even tell me what to prove to them.
I am also experienced in Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, and Microsoft Image composer.

so... I am pretty sure its my age, but I want another opinion, do you think age is the reason why i cant get a computer job?

[kb244]

If I were you I'd just try working off the internet, perhaps, but you could "Probally" check with some intern service(hey even they may be surprised) most jobs cant even hire you under their policy unless you are over 16 even for a parttime job, But yea I can see where it would suck major arse. Hey According to your signature you are still learning C++ want me to tutor you over the weekend sometimes on IRC?

[Gen-X]

dennis

I am wondering if the reason isn't because of the skills you have but in how much knowledge you have in them.

While you may say "I have quite a bit of knowledge about SQL", I know myself I considered how much you would know and came to the conclusion that based on the extensive knowledge that someone like myself who has a Computer Science degree has, what you consider "quite a bit" is probably very small indeed.

I am not trying to say you are not capable... but while you may see that knowledge as fairly good, not having seen the WHOLE thing you might not understand where your skill level is... for exactly the same reason that employers don't see it

Do you understand cartesian joins? Left joins? Unions? Nested Selects? Query Plans? Table Scans? Data normalization?

When I was 13 I thought I had a mountain of knowledge... and I did, but the older I got the more knowledge I accumulated and it made what I had at 13 look like nothing.

My best advice to you would be to forget about the summer job in computing, make yourself an application that you can sell as shareware that people would use. Let the proof be in the pudding so to speak, let your skills talk for themselves by the end product you have created.

I've been in this industry in one form or another since I was probably 13... meaning I have been here 15 years and I still learn things every day.

Your onto a good start, a damn good start and if you just keep it up then by the time you get to college you will be romping it in over everyone else... by the time you leave college you should have some amazing marks and *then* you should be first pick with any computer company.

I know it sucks but unfortunately we cannot beat the way the world works... so we have to join them

[kb244]

I was going to recomend that make some shareware as an option, hey you may want to check out brainbench.com and take some of their free exams, just to see exactly where you stand on their scoring, Most of the languages I know, I at least try to look ahead and see what more there is, for example in C++, I am quite knowledgible in it, well past enough to teach a first year High School class ( hehe ) but I at least know how much more there is to it, I often find myself knowing alot less than there is, while others underneath me think I'm the Guru (they need to get on this site and some others more often)

you can see my brainbench transcript at
http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=629151

Right now I'm praticing to pass that C++ , and the VB6 exams, in the C++ I lack some of the OOP concepts, the way they have diagrams and what not, in VB6, I lack some of the terminology. I was asking in other forums, where to stregten my understanding of OO Concepts, rather than C++ syntax, and what not.

Also try teaching someone something you know, I used to teach programming at the NC State University (hehe, not as a professor tho, as a teacher to the ACE Computer Camp that was there) and I've tutored people with Qbasic, VB, C++ for the past 2-3 years on IRC, Until you actually start trying to teach someone something you know, you never know how much you yourself knows, teaching is one of the best ways to keep in the game, other than taking on a Job.

[Sophtware]

I know this is off the beaten path but it seems ok to ask..
What amount of experience would be ok or required to TRY to get a job programming? and what does a beginning programmer do at a his/her first job?..just make tiny little apps that display company logos or what? ..i no am not being to descriptive but i just dont know.... all i personally am interested in right now as far as job wise in programming is something to get my foot in the door so to speak i dont really care what..so can someone give me a good idea of a place to start job wise?? (((VISUAL BASIC PROGRAMMING)))


And About the age thing...i am 20..and i just started 3 months ago programming..and i read posts made by the younger members of vb-world and i admire them for starting so early in life programming it's really cool...

I remember hearing a this somewhere somehow..
"What you cant make up in age, you can make up in dedication"

in other words ..it means..at whatever age you are in whatever you are doing..you can make up the lost time in actually doing it!

And it's true because i been programming in such a small period of time compared to many of you, in my vb class am passing with a A ..hehehe

So it's really about dedication...you can dabble in something all your life and not now squat and then have someone come by whos been doing what youve been doing for a smaller time and be better.

So am gonna take this time to pat myself on the back cause i worked hard enough to get that A in my class hehehe
"Pats self on back"..There


Ok ive said my piece




P.S Have any of you ever said one word over and over again so much that after a while it just dont make sense?
Like this...

Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello hello hell o yello yello ello lelo ello ello
hah after a while of saying a certain word over and over again...it just wont make sense..


Ok then later all.




Private Sub Retard()
Vb Pro 6 sp3&4
End Retard

YES I WOULD LOVE YOU TO TUTOR ME IN C++!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D


Gen-X, damn, the website I am learning SQL at(cant remember the URL right now) didnt mention any of those things :( damn I gots to get me a book.

which is why I need a job, I just spent about $500 on software in the past 2 weeks, my dad bought it for me, but I think he is gonna start to get tired of paying so much for software and books and stuff... :(

I like the idea of shareware, but how would I sell it?
how would I get the money to me?
I am making a business, http://www.dennissoft.com (its got a few errors because geocities + namezero = error) but accepting credit cards cotst at least $25 a month.

I saw some links on here before, I think in the general q & a section.

and for shareware, what would I make?
I mean everything has already been done at least 5 times, and I cant think of anything to make, a little help would be great :)


yeah, I have said a word over and over and over again until it makes no sense. It makes you doubt whether its a real word or not :) like maybe you just imagined it was a word... hehehe....

[kb244]

denniswrenn

the concept of shareware is like you might cripple your program to only do certain features, or have a nag screen, or have a 30 day trial, until they either buy a registration code, or pay you to email or send them a full copy. Or you could just say Send so and so to blah blah (if they'd do it, but if not, oh well) I would keep the price reasonable for the software you create, the more likely some non-pirater will pay for it.

Sophtware

for starters I'd just keep learning, try out brainbench.com, see how good of a score you get, try that as your marking point, it will tell you general fields you can work on too. they are free exams, at least they send you a certificate (which looks a lil nice, not as nice as a MSCE exam cert) if you pass any of them.

Originally posted by kb244
denniswrenn

the concept of shareware is like you might cripple your program to only do certain features, or have a nag screen, or have a 30 day trial, until they either buy a registration code, or pay you to email or send them a full copy. Or you could just say Send so and so to blah blah (if they'd do it, but if not, oh well) I would keep the price reasonable for the software you create, the more likely some non-pirater will pay for it.



no no, I mean I have no ideas for software to make....

[mwdelta]

I, like, totally agree with you about the perception of young programmers. (Just joking, I don't really talk like that). I just turned 18 (but look younger (http://www.workload2000.com/Graphics/founder.jpg)) and haven't been able to get a technology-related job despite having the necessary skills. Maybe after I release the software I'm developing, I'll either be able to get a cool job or won't need to have one. :)
Check out my website at http://www.workload2000.com and tell me if it looks professional!

[Gen-X]

Some Tips

I can't speak for America (probably because I live in Australia) but hopefully the industry isn't too different over there to make what I am about to say completely useless. :)

Education
When a person hasn't had a computer related job under their belt the Employer can only go by what the person has done with his education and how well they scored. This means the person who gets the job is the person with the Computer Science Degree... failing that they go down the list looking for technical degrees (at institutions that cannot make it high enough to qualify for FULL degree status), then further education degrees and finally after exhausting all that will look at things like MSCD or other third-party qualifications.

The thing is that almost ALL of these pieces of paper (including the Comp Sci degree that I have) are worthless!!!! They are no indication whatsoever as to your capabilities but without anything to go by you at least need that piece of paper. I used to watch fellow students get 95% in computer projects.... but they spent 3x the time on them that I did and I got 75%. This means for an additional 20% they required 300% increase in time... In the real world these people have all had troubles and end up working 60+ hours a week just to do what a good programmer can do in half that.

Presentation
The tricky part here is to exude confidence. You need to come across to a potential employer that you are fully equiped and totally able to do whatever you are given. Unfortunately its quite easy to take this a step too far into "arrogance" and unfortunately those who are young are "seen" to make this step all too often. If you can find a comfortable place between confidence and not being arrogant, while giving the impression you are very well grounded then you will have a foot in the door.

You have to remember most people see youth as being rash and compulsive... quick to make decisions or to go off doing things that haven't been thought out... so you need to overcome this with confidence and make sure that while remaining enthusiastic you aren't so much so that they would question your ability to perform well.

Again you can't get passed the age problem... while some people might be more than happy to have you on their programming team, they still have to impress THEIR clients and if they were to tell the Managing Director of a major company who has invested $500,000 in the development of their software to a 13 year old and tell him this person is responsible for his companies investment being spent well I don't think he would be happy.

A tip
Here is a tip you might not have thought of. While you might want to become programmers, not everyone starts in the position they seek... Sometimes you have to work your way up. My first job out of University was doing Network Administration. I started out as the "junior" in the IT department who did all the **** jobs, fixed peoples software problems, installed new machines... did all the completely horrible jobs in computing, carried cable boxes etc, etc.

By the end of that year I was not only the senior person there but had also shown my programming ability by taking opportunities along the way and was developing software that made their business run smoother.

So sometimes getting into the area regardless whether you are doing what you want or not is a good step.


I would suggest you went around to companies and instead of asking them for programming positions, talked about being gophers or cleaners or technical assistants. Then once you are in there you can let your natural skills come through when the opportunity presents itself.

[HarryW]

Some very good advice there. (maybe not a cleaner though, there's not many programming opportunities for cleaners ;))

A good friend of mine has just got a job as a network admin/software engineer/systems engineer. He has some good experience in VB from A-Level Computing, and a lot of potential, and he's a nice guy, easy to get along with.

After he got the job and worked there a week or two, they told him that he was selected from over 20 other candidates. They also said that a lot of them were very experienced programmers, with a lot of ability, but they were complete eggheads and the interviewers (now his workmates) felt that my friend would be much more fun to work with. So basically, be yourself and be natural, because the people that interview you will most likely be working with you, and they don't want a complete a**hole.

Qualifications are 'barriers to entry'. They're not what employers are actually looking for, they're looking for aptitude and skills. Qualifications are used, generally, to cut down a large field of applicants to a small group of interviewees, by interviewing those with the highest qualifications where no information on skills is available. This is for the same reason that many jobs will require "a degree or higher in any subject" - the fact that you have attained a qualification at this level shows aptitude. It also shows some breadth of knowledge, experience alone will usually be fairly specialised.

Qualifications are more important in areas where there is hot competition for jobs, but in the IT industry they are far less important because there is a shortage of staff.

I have found that a good way to get the experience that employers want on your CV is to do some work experience. With the current shortage of staff most companies will be happy to have a free IT worker for a while, so long as you can show you won't be draining their resources and distracting other people. This is how I learnt ASP (I don't have a web server to play with and I'm certainly not going to buy ASP myself). If you can't work during office hours, then another way I've heard from someone on this forum, is to go to a company and offer to write them a free application - when you've finished it, you can use them as a reference, and put the project and experience down on your CV. That also shows initiative.

[kb244]

Well for some of you, you could do what I did to get my current programming position, apply to a job, or place on your resume, you seek entry position, some of the smaller companies, love to grab up the younger learning crowd, if they are confident you can keep up with the technology, which is what I did, although I need to work on my business "apeals" such as being corporate-like, my CEO said he is very proud of my work, and can gladly show my work to customers saying that "this is what this guy did..." Most of us beginning into the field of professional carreers (not nessasarily just programming) would be easier to start down into a smaller company, stuff like "entry" level, or "Looking to seek cotinuous learning path..." somehting of that sort, also you dont have the strict ridginess of a larger company. just thought that might seem like an idea for some of you.

[parksie]

I'm only 17, with no proper qualifications, and may still be able to work for a large company in britain. The only reason this is possible is because my dad works there. On my own, I would never have been able to. It seems that they don't mind too much, they just refuse to take your personal word for your abilities.

[HarryW]

That's very true, the larger companies tend to be very beaurocratic and inflexible, which can be really annoying. I've worked at some of them, and the amount of administration going on for pointles stuff it just stupid.

My dad works at a big company (they make helicopters in case you're interested) in a software engineering and support department, and he's on this committee about company protocols (something big companies have a lot of), and he says he' surprised they don't have a protocol for wiping your arse ;) The thing is, nobody takes any notice of them because they think it's bloody obvious what they have to do and don't bother checking for protocols, but if they got checked up they'd probably find they were wiping in the wrong direction or something ;)

Anyway, that was a bit OT, but I wouldn't want to work at a big company long-term, I'd rather work for a smaller company. There's much less politics to worry about too, company politics is a pain in the arse. People get this corporate mentality, their sense of humour goes stale, and they become bitter and twisted ;) Well maybe not that bad, but the sense of humour definitely loses something.

[kb244]

Unlike smaller companies it seems, is that larget companies, you are hired, or interviewed most of the time by a non-technical person(or someone who may not actually work int he feild, but has a degree in IT Recruiting or something) in any case, when you goto those interviews, they have qualifications(or what I like to call barriers since they can be overcome) Typically these guys will not know how to judge how much knowlege or skill is absolutly required, so they depend Degrees, or certifications, to give them a general idea what the average employee would need to perform the task. Also in any case Age might even be one of those qualitfications, aside from the technical issue, they will look for maturity, anyone below their mid-20s , in my opinion has at most been looked down on as being imature and not taking anything serious. This is why I recomend finding smaller companies, as they may be easier to get in, and may be easier to prove your skills. Also the enviroment is usually less threating, and for some can help learn what it's like to be in a professional carreer even if you know the professional skills, Any thought on this comment?

[Gen-X]

Maybe I'm different but I don't understand "permanent" staff mentality :D

Perhaps because I haven't had a permanent job for nearly 6-7 years now.... but there is so much contract work out there and it is paying a hell of a lot more than normal-sit-your-but-down-and-stay-there employment I wouldn't change for the world.

Of course you require more qualitifcations and more notches on your resume than the average worker but once they are there you will never turn back. I keep getting job agencies asking me to work full-time and when I give them the figure they nearly have a heart attack... But why should I cut off my arm to take a lower paying job that will bore the absolute hell out of me in 6 months!?!?

I just don't get them some times.

[Sam Finch]

How easy is it to start in the freelancing/Consultancy bussiness? I'm thinking of going freelance as I'm not really in a situation where I can get a full Time Job (No prober computing quallifications and only 3 or 4 months experience working in a company) I'm working for another company at the Moment "On Contract" although we havn't drawn up a contract and I'm not charging because I just want the experience. How do you go about getting the proper notches to do it for real?

[Gen-X]

There is a difference between "freelance" and "contractor".

Contractors are those who are highly sort by job agencies (not normal agencies but IT agencies) to fill positions from 3 months up to 1 year. The level of qualifications required is pretty high, the resume must read even HIGHER than that because the client is forking out a sh*tload of money to have someone who can step in and sort it out.

It sometimes is hard to break into (this of course is relating to Australia... Don't know about other places) but once you are in and you have 3-4 contracts under your belt for some serious companies then you have your foot in the door and are almost assured of continuing work for as long as you want it.

I have contracted to the Department of Treasury and Finance, IT Companies, A Statistics company, A courier company (administration), the Department of Defense and now for a Defense Contractor..... Having all that on my resume is the reason I keep getting work :cool:

I have to admit... In the beginning it was painful... people were reluctant to have people who didn't already have contracts under their belt and they were reluctant to pay fair money... it took time, effort and simply biding time until you get the skills and contracts to be able to start commanding what you want.... My resume now reads like a company skill profile (ie collection of all their staff) with a contract list nearly 4 pages long.

Just keep at it and if you are good you will get there :)

[whittam]

I can't get you lot you act like this only happens to young people.

My husband at the ripe old age of 45 was told after he set up the Networking system for a multinational company in Australia that they couldn't pay him for it because he didn't have any qualifications.

So off I went and got the qualifications I completed a three year course in 15 months and was told that they were worth nothing because if I did them that quickly either my lectuter was too easy or I was cheating.

I think age has nothing to do with it in Australia people don't want to pay

[kb244]

I've also heard it takes alot longer for some of the new technology(like new video cards and athlons and what not) to get into australia, maybe they didnt want to pay the shipment either? :}

[whittam]

Your right about that.

By the time it gets here its already outdated.

Where I study they have just upgraded from Windows 95 to 98.

Australia the land of opportunity!!!

And just to add.. Ten years ago I worked once on the team where there were couple of clever guys knowing bilion of languages. And every morning they came in the office and saying "Uhm.. it is a raining today, I think I will write in Borland C" or "Uhm.. I am getting nostalgic about Pascal today" or "uhmm.. I think Microfocus Cobol handles these things so nicely, I will use it for this part" , etc.

Well, obviously we had a bad manager when he did not stop them doing this "language choices" because the end result was the most un-maintainable application that I ever came accross. So yes, these guys were technically briliant, they code fast and they knew many languages, but they had a business accumen equal zero.

It is important to avoid "What is the most technically complicated way that I do it so that I can show others how clever I am" type of coding and, maybe for the reason of wanting to prove themselves, younger guys do it more often than old ones.

Cheers!

[VBD]

I am 13 and have been programming in VB For like 4 years and started QB When I was 8. I have mastered Network Communications, but still am having trouble with DirectX. I signed up on RentACoder and got a job right off. I didn't talk about my age/education. I didn't put : I froze my computer 18 times trying to program in DX. I just don't go for DX Jobs. I put stuff about all the protocols I've mastered/network stuff I can do and post that and go for network jobs. No one asks about my age. No body suspects I am some 13 year old geek. I just program their and it works out... I started of from VBWorld and stuff. I've learned that the yonger you are, the less you can tell people about you because they will look down on your age. My advice is to hide it unless you are older.

:p I have also read that mentions of MSPaint aren't good in yoru resume :p

[BodwadUK]

Ok after reading the first few posts i am slightly confused....


I am 19 took one year after leaving college with a BTEC to get a job and ill give some advice

You should get a years experience before applying for jobs cause people arent interested and you wont even get an interview. Learn other things like HTML, Javascript etc. I found many interviews were aquired by me because i had skills in Visual Basic AND simple web development stuff which older people often dont have and seem easily impressed in it :D

Make lots of advanced programs, i work in DX and although its only direct draw it gives fantastic and impressive code to show at interviews, and many people dont have a clue how to use it especially if their older.

University isnt required but may be helpful, university often doesnt help you develop advanced projects, you touch many things in simple ways, it becomes more of a taster in languages than actual learning!!!!


One important thing is dont give up keep developing and showing off your talents in more ambitios and succesful products

P.s Oh and learn how to spell i think i failed cause i am s**t at it!!:D :D :D :D :D

[venerable bede]

I'm 127 years of age and I have a nice doggy.

[Gary.Lowe]

It's simply older people percieving you as a threat to them because you know more in a growing world of technology.

In addition you would also gain the knowledge of real world polotics and the various things they do.

I have had a lot of problems with people in the past not just in IT with the perception that they are older and they know better.

The simple answer is go around them and if you can't then the company isn't worth working for as they have these plonkers holding the company back becasue they don't want to be below anyone else.

[Wally Pipp]

Age and maturity are actually not connected. Everyone seems to think so but they aren't.

They are distant cousins. Twice removed. To a Chelsea pensioner's home. Flat A325 and F986 (second floor, white curtains). In fact, they only meet in the dinner hall and exchange gum cleaning tips to each other.

[plenderj]

There's also the fact that if you're younger, you simply won't have picked up many years of experience.
For example, I'm 20.

Three years ago I thought I knew everything about VB.
Two years ago I realised I 'now' knew far more, and thought I knew everything.
A year ago the same thing happened.

And now, I've accepted the fact that I know a lot, but I'll never know it all.
I'll always be learning more and more.



Things like version controlling, naming conventions, debugging, generating release & debug versions, dealing with customers...

... its all stuff that you keep learning and learning about.

[JPicasso]

Please watch Star Trek The Next Generation episodes with
Wesly Crusher in it.

Most people would like to put his head through the navigation console.

It's very similar to that. Not saying it's right, just trying to put it
into perspective.