about creation and AI

hmmmm, i have read 2 straight pages on the post "Evolution for those who care" and i wanted to post my 2 cents worth here since the other post is way too long.

ok first off i do not beleive in god, and i hope sometime in the near future everyone else will drop religion as i think it gets in the way of science and many other things.

hmmm where to begin? i dont think we were created by random, we evolved out of who knows what by a long period of time. things evolve because the environment changes around them so they must adapt. im sure from whatever we proceeded from, that animal had to change its life styles to survive, and after a few thousand or maybe million years we evolved finally. i do think it is a slow and gradual process, and mutations dont really effect evolution because when a "mutant" animal mates with a normal animal, the baby still has a chance of being normal, but if wide spread mutation occures, than the whole species can be drastically altered.

i also think every single person who posted their thoughts about science and everything, is most likely wrong because time and technology will advance to be so great that it will answer so many of our discussions in this forum. there is no such thing as "random", something always happens because of something else. its sort of like that newton theory "for every action there is a equal reaction" or something like that. meaning when something in the universe blows up, such as a star, then it effects the surrounding planets, then those planets effect all the life forms on it and so on, it is a chain reaction.

i know what im saying sounds weird, its because i really suck at explaining and when i went back to read what i wrote, it didn't come out right so please bare with me.

i dont understand how people beleive in god. how can a "spirit" just wave his/her/it's hand and create something? that seems like the stupidest thing humans have ever thought up, there has to be chemical reactions, fusion/fission, etc etc to create whole planets and solar systems, not a wave of some non-existing entities hand. i know you guys are saying "how can you prove there is no god?", well obviously i can't, but using my common sense, i think there isn't a god.

back to the thing about randomness, for something to be TOTALLY random, there has to be NOTHING effecting the outcome of the thing being random. meaning no outside force has meddled with the outcome, which is (in my idea) impossible. but again all of my thoughts (and your guys thoughts) will be proven wrong or correct as time reveals more secrets of our surrounding.

about AI, i think it is VERY possible to create a totally sentient being. not now, but soon enough (if we dont kill each other off) we will find out how to, i am so sure about this, although i cant prove it. we will indoubtably create a machine NOT greater than us, but can think for itself to some extent. i cant say when this will happen, but im sure if our human race can live another tousand years, we will be doing some unimanginable things. to us it seems almost impossible to create something that will react to its surrounding without any outside input, but then how do we think for ourselves? once we firguer out how our brain actually works, all we will have to do is recreat it to some extent in machine form and it would be able to think for itself. as of right now, an AI is a series of if's and then staements. "IF this happens THEN do this", and the best AI in the world is just a HUGE library of IF and THEN statements, thats all. it just has so many if statements that it can react to many of its normal surroundings, but if it is put into foreign surroundings where there are no IF and THEN statements to be true or false, than this machine will not function as intended, but a true AI will be able to think for itself. I consider current AI to be first generation AI, when a machine will be able to create it own IF and THEN statements without a programmers input, then i would consider that second generation AI.

also about a "creation" can never be greater then its "creator". i think that is false, but there is some truth to it. a "creation" can not be created greater than the creator but it will have the potential to be greater, if the creator was good enough to create a sentient AI. but a creator CANNOT create something more intellegent then intself on purpose, only by ACCIDENT can it give a future to the creation which would make it smarter than him.

ok im very tired so ill stop blaberring now. BTW nothing came out as i intended it to, i just cant explain things worth sh*t. all that stuff i said sounds like 1sy grader talk, if you would talk to me in person, i would seem a lot smarter :) but all that stuff i said is really confusing i know. i just cant explain things really well...

please dont flame me for anything i have said

[kedaman]

i dont understand how people beleive in god. how can a "spirit" just wave his/her/it's hand and create something? that seems like the stupidest thing humans have ever thought up, there has to be chemical reactions, fusion/fission, etc etc to create whole planets and solar systems, not a wave of some non-existing entities hand.

First: hes not a spirit, there no such things as ghosts and spirits. He didn't wave his hand and we didn't create something. WE didn't create anything. Nothing can be created out of nothing so we can't create, so that's why we can't use the create word. It's like saying 1+2=4 because it's not true inside our universe. Instead we use the create word for making modifications in an original way. That's why we have that word. God created everything that is needed for Bigbangexplosion/whatever that started this universe. God created us in that meaning that every atom in us are his creation, and time is his hand to modify us to what we are (evolution illusion). There's nothing stupid about this theory, because it's zillion times more likely than yours. Not nessesarily logical in that part god is outsider to our universe so he don't need to obey this universe rules, but if we have that part everything makes sense, everything is correct. Nothing is leaved to chance. Your theory is logical, but leaves what science can't proove and the cause of universe existense, unexplained.

Relgion bullshit can't explain things correctly. How did he create universe?

Well lets assume there are rules like 1+1=2 in this universe. In another(if) there could be 1+1=3. Outside these/this universe we don't have any rules at all. 1+1=whatever you want. There's also no rules that says that matter can't be created out of nothing. So god created universe by saying things, or whatever, because for him everything is possible for him. This is what I call logical in both inside and outside our universe.

Also science and technology is built up based on our universe, so it won't explain this. People who come up with theories that are slowly accepted by science, but they're nessesarily not always true, because something is not logical, a part is missing. I have come up with a theory that's not missing any parts. And it's logical after all.


back to the thing about randomness, for something to be TOTALLY random, there has to be NOTHING effecting the outcome of the thing being random. meaning no outside force has meddled with the outcome, which is (in my idea) impossible. but again all of my thoughts (and your guys thoughts) will be proven wrong or correct as time reveals more secrets of our surrounding.

Randomness can either be chaotic or an illusion caused by our stupidity. I think we're going to find out this in the future. All theories can be prooved that are not using outside universe logics, so by time we will know almost everything, maybe everything in this universe except it's source. You can't proove my theory. many will try but noone can. The only thing I can do is make this clear for people that this is a logical possibility.

We can't create AI but we surely can evolve it. IF THEN is not AI, it wont learn anything, it just functions the way it is programmed to. Althought making selfmodifyable IF THEN library will be AI.

[SteveCRM]

In science, matter nor energy can be created or destroyed, just changed in form.

I am somewhere in the middle between kedaman and hdem2.

But Riddle me this: Who created God? Did he just will himself to exsist? Not possible. I beileve in God but i am also curious about the scientific point of view. About 4.6 billion years ago, the Earth was created and Life evolved from a single cell from chemical reactions. You need to have the perfect weather conditions to create a cell from non-living matter. Some people say God crated life, others say that he didn't.

But look at it this way. Way back then, people were to puzzled to think of solutions of how we came to be so they could have (i'm not saying they did) made up a guy and say he created everything.

[kedaman]

SteveCRM, I know that, all should know
Megatron, If you believe in God, you don't actually need to drag him into our universe, his not a thing, a statue or a man in our meaning. His outside universe, where we cannot know what, but surely he have the ultimate power to do anything he wants, theres no rules out there.

So there is even no rule about time: nothing needs to be created or destroyed, so in other words we could say that God always have and always will exist, but we can't. We don't know how God's livingroom is like, although the bible have gived us some screenshots but they aren't really reliable. God maybe have "time", but I doub't. It would just disturb him and stress him IF he have time to think about us all, which what I think, he must have. This is kindo highabstract to think about things explaining a connection between a timeless "Gods-hyperspace" and our "time-space" universe, but I think god have some API calls for that. Maybe he subclass or somthing.

hdem2, I don't like you splitting up this in more threads, people maybe post some not related post or ask things about parts of whole theories, things will mess up this way. Anyway I'll post the links to the two other threads on this topic

Grey Vbworld (http://forums.vb-world.net/showthread.php?threadid=13820)
Evolution for those who care (http://forums.vb-world.net/showthread.php?threadid=14521)

In the beginning there was unending nothingness. Whether this lasted for the briefest moment or countless eternities, it is impossible to say because time did not exist.

If you can't create anything, how do you create something out of this unending nothingness. When was the real beginning? Has the universe always exsisted?

[Sam Finch]

The universe has existed since there was time for it to exist it, before the universe there was no space and no time. So the Idea that god cannot exist because he couldn't create himself out of nothing implies that the universe doesn't exist. Personally I don't care wheather god exists or not, I really don't think it matters. It's probably a bit of both.

It can't be both. It's one or the other.

[noone]

My main problem with the whole notion of god has already been mentioned. If god created the Universe, who/what created god? The idea of god always existing is just something my mind cant grasp. If god always existed, why cant the universe always have existed?
I do think that true AI is possible but probably not in our lifetime. True AI will have to learn to react and adapt to situations that its creators never programmed it to react to.

Wouldn't it be interesing if people ccould program "feelings" into robots. So if you do something bad to them, they'll blast you.

But since you are the creater of the robot, you would alos be able to deactivate it. Sure it could do math problem and other stuff better than you but you are still the creater of it, thus you know it's every move.

[kedaman]

Megatron:
According to my theory Universe began at a point, and will end at a point or will lose its meaning while time seems stretched out to unlimitedness, which is what i think is the same. (if u reacted at this then before posting, answer this: What is time without movement?)

God is not a part of this universe, his the module in the project. Universe is the form. God is the sub_main. He creates an instance of the form, wait until it runs trough, and then kill it or wait it until it get killed. The form will run in a certain time interval, the module is independent.

The real beginning ure talking about should be when project is executed, but, that's not applying for my theory. There's no real beginning, because the word "beginning" needs the "time.dll" to run. It will show a "missing dll"-message. Hehehe, hope you got my metaphor.

Why would God need to be created? He needs that time.dll to be that, then who created that one? Answer is that God is. Or whatever (our language doesn't support the God-hyperspace dimensions).

I believe that time travel and altering of time is possible. That's what the 4th dimension is all about. As a ship's velocity approaches the speed of light, the flow of time decreases. If you and me are both born at the same time and I was put at a rocket travelling 250,000Km/s and you were stationary, you would have aged 20 yars in 20 years whereas I might have only aged about 3 years. the speed of light is a univeral speed limit. No partical that has a mass can meet or exceed it, thus light is a constant. If someone were to travel at the speed of light, they would never age. Time will stand still for them. If you exceed the speed of light, time will run backwards. Time flows relative to an observer. You'd not notice anything when you are traveling but to an observer, you ae either miving really slow (a little below the speed of light) or you are stationary (spped of light) or you appear to be doing thing "backwards" (exceed speed of light)

So what's the big deal with all this time travl stuff? Well this proves that time can be altered and or stopped. This means that time is still there. It will always be there.
Just sometimes, it flows at different rates. Hence, we do not need a time.dll, because time is like the rectangle around the Form. It's always there.

[Cbomb]

Einstein did prove all of what you just said. But now with Quantum Sciences coming about they find that light can only be the speed limit in this dimension.

An experiment was done where they split a particle and then using mag fields they altered one particle. The other (a copy of the one being changed) was down a tube 5 miles away. And yet displayed the exact changes at the EXACT same time. (Proven by synchronized atomic clocks) This leads ME to belive that the "change" information is moving at some instantaneous speed through a different dimension.

I find this intriguing. Imagine we can build something that transports matter instantaneously! Vega here we come!

[Sam Finch]

It was actually proved a few days ago that the universe isn't going to end, it'll just keep on expanding, but slowing down just enough so it'll "stop" after an infinite period of time (I know this doesn't make sense but you know what I mean)

[Zaphod64831]

I think that trans-dimensional theories could be the explanation to everyone's question of where our universe came from. Consider this, God is God, but not the only God, he is a sentient being from another, parallel, universe that has created this one to study and interact with. It is quite possible that someone with a seemingly infinite life-span could gain enough knowledge, with help from the others of His species, to affect time and space. If they were able to do this then they could transport the beginnings of enough matter and energy into one single point in our universe. This could create the "Big Bang" effect which has been intriguing our scientists for so long. They would also, theoretically, be able to create the sparks of life. Probably as simple as bacteria, or any type of single-celled organism. This would eventually evolve into some sort of higher life form. And, being able to manipulate time, they could easily have our universe pass by in a wink of an eye, stopping in whenever it suits them, explaining why something major hasn't mappened in the last 2000 years. Also, they would also be able to study our universe with extremely fast computers, considering their time manipulation they could create computers that actually process information an instant before it is given the command, thus explaining the "all-knowing" characteristic.

Of course, I've just been letting my mind wander with possibilities, so don't attempt to take any of this seriously.

[Cbomb]

Like A calculator that "thinks to you" the the answer. Sounds like Star Trek, H.G. Wells, and Superman all in one :)

[kedaman]

Megatron:
I didn't mention what time.dll does: It just give universe a possibility to change, not putting a time dimension into it that is constant to everything. Exceeding c does not nessesarily make time go backwards, if you don't do it directly (because thats one real impossible). Warp technology is next to AI, i'd say

SAM:
I know exactly what you mean, and it makes sense too. I've just told about that theory, but how the heck did they proove it?

Zaphod:
Like in THGTTG, hehehe, except that universe is the experiment, not earth. Remember, 42

[Sam Finch]

do you mean the one about the univere coming to a stop, I don't understand exactly what they did, they took loads of measurements from the north pole.

[Zaphod64831]

kedaman: Actually, I got the idea from an old Star Trek novel called "The Wounded Sky by Diane Duane."

It's about the possibility of an infinite number of universes co-existing in a single, larger universe. Sort of like a bunch of REALLY slow-moving bubbles in a soda. In the book a strange, glass-spider-like creature discovers that it can manipulate physics through what it calls "creative physics." A theory where physics aren't fixed, but defined through the people and ideas that limit them. Just as Newton "discovered" gravity and applied some rules to them, thus the limits were set. Until a more precise limit was set later on by more aspiring physicists.

Anyway, back to the main topic. These "bubble" universes exist in the larger universe. The larger universe is unlike all the rest in the sense that it is the EXACT opposite of a vacuum. It is filled with a material called "de sitter space," a super-condensed matter which is described as follows:

Imagine a black hole, now compress that black hole to the size of a pinhead, now fill an entire universe with these pinhead-sized black holes, then compress that universe down to the size of a pinhead. Repeat about a googol times.

In short, this material is so condensed that when they brought a SINGLE particle of it into our universe the planet on which they brought it was sucked into it in exactly ZERO time. Less than an 1/1000 of an instant.

In the book one of these universes in the de sitter universe bumps ours and begins to open a rift. This rift can only be closed by entering the other universe. When the Enterprise and the glass spider creature enter the other universe they find that it has absolutely no physical limitations, including matter, gravity, and light. But through their new "spirited" selves they discover that there is a single entity in the other universe, that universe's God. The other entity, being alone for who knows how long before, has no sense of self or others and has no idea how to perceive the fact that there is something other than its own mind, which it has yet to discover even exists.

They end up communicating to it through telepathy, attempting to teach it years of knowledge about the fact that it even exists in just a few moments. They end up teaching it about itself by "inventing" pain, which ends up working as they are able to attack it psychologically. They eventually teach it about the predicament they are in and end up fixing it. But the "God" ends up learning loneliness and asks them what it is to do when they leave, with no one else to talk to for the rest of eternity and the knowledge that there is someone else out there. They teach it about creating life and living through those lives.

Anyway, my point is, our universe could have been created in this sense. Someone from another universe could have penetrated whatever barrier lies between universes and spawned ours, or created it in some sort of laboratory. Someone with that ability would have no problem with creating "miracles" and such.

But again, I'm just letting my mind wander.

[kedaman]

Zaphod, I surely need to read that book, sounds interesting. Again this definition of universe(s) goes far from standard and I can't find any ways to agree/disagree with you. But one thing I found very hard to agree with:

In short, this material is so condensed that when they brought a SINGLE particle of it into our universe the planet on which they brought it was sucked into it in exactly ZERO time. Less than an 1/1000 of an instant.

You just said exactly Zero time! If you stop the clock in a universe, there's no movement out there. I think if you put one single particle of anti-vauum into our universe it would in a second collapse the whole universe, eating up exactly everything making everything go so fastbackwards when every particle speeds up zillion times c. We will end up with GIB GNAB as fast as almost ZERO TIME.

What is an anit-vacuum?

[Zaphod64831]

That may be true, but it's still a great book. I had to change a couple of aspects, by the way, because if I hadn't I would have ended up having to write the entire book.

And Megatron, a vacuum is absolutely nothing in a spot. Anti-vacuum is absolutley everything in one spot. I'm afraid that's the best that I can explain it as, but with a little imagination you should be able to figure it out.

[Gen-X]

Someone mentioned here correctly when they said "We must understand intelligence first before we can make a computer to USE it".

We cannot even come to an agreement about :

1. The size of the universe
2. Who created it
3. Does God exist?
4. Do we really see things?
5. Is there randomness?

And about another billion things...


If we cannot even get THOSE explained where we ALL agree then how on earth will we EVER be able to all agree on what intelligence actually is?

Until we can do that we cannot create AI.

[Sam Finch]

This is my favorite Gen-X argument so far

We will never achieve artificial intellegence because a group of amature VB programmers can't answer 5 of the hardest phillosophical questions of all time.

[Cbomb]

And I was so sure you guys could pull it off. ;) But really by exchanging beliefs and information back and forth like this, and with a programmer's analitical style of thinking we learn and accept or decline ideas slighty faster. Bringing everyone to the answers to the 'top 5' more quickly. :)

[Edited by Cbomb on 04-30-2000 at 05:40 PM]

[Gen-X]

Sam *big sigh* :(

I am struggling here not to say "are you that SHORT sighted"

[Heck, I just did... Oops]

When I say "WE" I am talking about humanity as a species. The collective of ALL of our best minds.

And when I say "and about a billion others" I am talking about things like :

1. We cannot agree if neural nets approximate our brain
2. Psychology now even REFUTES Freuds concepts of Ego
3. What goes into our decision to pick chocolate over caramel
4. What are the factors effecting a decision
5. Heck! What IS the decision making process.

We can't even work these things out and yet we are supposed to be able to PROGRAM them into an AI?!?!?

How about you actually answer one of these questions for once Sam instead of just giving me the "Oh I love this classic Gen-X argument"?

Answer me JUST this :

How can we program an Artificial Intelligence to do something we do not understand ourselves?


I'll give you a chocolate if you can at least answer me this ;)

[Zaphod64831]

By seeking out a more powerful being, hence the gods in all the religions. By seeking these beings we are attempting to find these answers. The answers provided by the gods of all these religions eventually lead to understanding, and understanding to AI.


And make sure that chocolate isn't a cordial cherry, I hate those.

[Zaphod64831]

And by the furthering of technology. As we advance in our current understanding of technology we will eventually be able to probe the human mind through a much more organized and definite means.


Make that a box of chocolates. :)

i have always thought this, but gen-x brought it up. an AI cannot be totally independant of it's "creator" or programmer untill the programmer himself totally understands how the noodle in his head works. Gen-x is saying, how can you program a machine to do something that you yourself dont know how it works, such as how to make a decision on your own. a scientist cant program that into a machine if he doesn't understand what your brain is doing along the way to come up with your dicision. thats all, its just a basic concept. can you program anything you wanted in VB? no because you must learn those code words before you can use them right? same thing when you try to create an AI, you must know the "code words" in how to create a dicision before you can complete your program.

you might able to do something like this later in the future by taking the software from DNA and converting it to digital information.

[Zaphod64831]

I agree with Gen-X too, I'm just saying that once we get to a high enough level of technological understanding we will eventually be able to understand our own minds better.

and we might be able to program a robot to have "a mind of it's own"

[Sam Finch]

Don't insult me just because I wear glasses, ok, you're question
How can we program an Artificial Intelligence to do something we do not understand ourselves?

I don't know where you pulled this Idea that we have to program it ourselves, some major advances have been made in AI by using progras written by a process mimicing evolution, although we havn't tcreated an einstein, we have created creatures that can accomplish simple tasks in an intellegent way, simulations of a fox chasing a rabbit, for example, pot a 100th generation fox against a 40th generation rappit the fox will always catch it, and nobody knows how they work, I actually have seen these in action and they do display signs of intellegence.

I'm not saying that we definatley can create AI, but I don't see your objection as valid, you are dismissing most of my arguments on the grounds that they are mathematical, and that maths is based on itself, wheras you've pulled some ideas out of a hat, nameley

We must program the machine outselves, this Idea of software "evolution" cannot work

We can never understand the process of human thought.

where have these ideas come from?

well i dont understand your idea how a machine creates other AI's and not a programmer. well how is a NON sentient machine going to be able to program a SENTIENT machine without having emotions, feeling pain, feeling worried, etc when the machine it self doesn't feel those emotions? it is impossible, some scientist who figuered out how those nuerons and other stuff in your brain works has to create the first sentient being, than MAYBE that first generation of sentient creations can create more complex models of itself. i hope you understand what im saying, basically im saying you got to feel what your making and you just cant put all this math together and hope that your machine feels some emotion. it isn't math that makes us happy or sad, scared or brave, its something else that no one knows quite sure what it is. so once we do, then we can duplicate it in machine form some how.

we have created creatures that can accomplish simple tasks in an intellegent way

your talking about some robot that serves you breakfast or something, that machine has no emotion. it was programmed not to run into walls, and how grab things, thats all. i hope you dont think that it will get scared if you pointed a gun at it, that machine has no clue whats going on, it just grabs stuff and puts it down at a programmed location. i am talking about being sentient, not a machine.

[Sam Finch]

it's not done like that, I think it's done by programming chips, completly random programs are put into the chips, the best few programs are then combined, a bit like mixing DNA, this gives the next generation, then the best are taken from that and combined, with fast computors and simulators you can do this very fast, if you have an algorythm for measuring success, I think you have to design the framework very well so that the programs can be combined without destroying them.

[SteveCRM]

About all this about everything happens for a reason...I know this sounds silly, but maybe everything does happen for a reason. If someone has a Bible handy, they should read the first book, Genesis. That has some interesting things on Creation. Wow, this is one of the deepest posts I've ever read.

if you want deep, check out the post "Evolution (for those who care)". that post has all these kinds of posts times 3.

also SAM, i understand what you mean, but a computer chip wont make a sentient being. this is what we are talking about when we talk about AI. sentient means you are AWARE of your surroundings without any outside input, such as a computer chip or a programmer. all animals, humans, dogs, birds, elephants are sentient to some extent. meaning they fear for their lives, and they know right from wrong, to some extent. when you do all that complex algorithym, its just programming and the machine doesn't feel any emotion. we are discussing how to create the ultimate AI, which thinks on its own without chips.

[Sam Finch]

Sorry, I've missed something here, why aren't we allowed chips, how can you have any sort of computer without chips, without coung back to calculators the size of wardrobes.


If we continue to evolve thes machines to accomplish more complex tasks they will become self awar, just like animals did, it's a natrual step in evolution, wheather we can know if our machins are self aware or wheather they just seem like it is a very interesting question

you guys should really check out the post "Evolution (for those who care)" post. there are some really mind bogeling theories out there. this is the stuff that really interests me, when you talk about time traveling and the universe. not in the kid way though, like in star trek and junk, i think all those shows are bull. but that thread is very intresting, not kiddy theories, so check it out. thanks for all your posts guys, i like talking about this stuff

[Gen-X]

1. You can't replicate DNA Digitally
The whole reason our DNA actually works is because of the material it functions in... organic matter. if you try to digitally replicate DNA to a non-organic substance it will fail. Don't forget... part of DNA determines how much seratonin is required to be chemically injected into a neuron to cause it to send a bio-electric pulse to its organicially graphed brother...

Simply replicating this WONT WORK.

2. Create something simple that will create something more complex

Think about what you said...

Lets create something simple : "An AI Dog"
It will create something more complex

Mmmm... I know that I am smarter than a Dog. So I could come up with something better than an AI Dog before IT could.

So I make "An AI Parrot"

Mmmm... I STILL think that I could make something better than an AI Parrot.

It goes on, and on, and on... until I get to the point where I have had to construct something that is NOT simple, it is as complex as me... and yet it is STILL not complex enough because it only has what I gave it.

Does that make sense now?

3. Sam's Spawning AI Life Principle

Sam. Your theory of constructed intelligences that "mimic" sentience such as the robots and other mechanisms utilize AI theories such as Genetic Algorithms, Expert Systems, Natural Language Processing, Neural Networks, Fuzzy Logic and a lot of other things.

You are right. We don't know how they work, they do "APPEAR" to show intelligence.

But guess what!?!?!

You have created an AI Aomeba!!! Woohoo!!!

If you want to create something that does this and it uses ITSELF to evolve then it would have to follow a similar path to ourselves in evolution.

This means it would require the following in order to successfully evolve :

1. Millions of years
2. A perfect environment conducive to evolution
3. ALL required resources
4. The EXACT stimuli at the EXACT required times

Now if it took the universe 65 billion years to do it right... and it did it NATURALLY... how on earth can we get the process to REPEAT itself electronically!?!??!

Don't forget...

WE decide its made of silion
WE decide to use electricity or light
WE decide to put resistors in it
WE decide to use copper circuitboards

What if artificial life was meant to use some OTHER substances? How can we ever recreate something if we are FORCING the materials used in doing it.

Its wasn't a CHOICE that we are carbon based and have 80% of our bodies made of water.... it wasn't even done on PURPOSE. Those materials were the most conducive and the most stable (Carbon is a double bond vailence with Oxygen) of all elements to be able to support life.


While maths might tell you that If you see the numbers :

1 2 3 4 5 6

That the next step is the number 7

The universe doesn't play by those rules. Humanity has been evolving, we compare ourselves to our ancestors of 1000 years ago and we say "We have improved". We see that it is a steady increase and we say "We KEEP improving therefor we will CONTINUE to improve".

In 100 years time we improve to the point where we have perfected Genoside and wipe ourselves out of existance.

PROGRESSION DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL CONTINUE.

You look at a robot that can dodge a wall and you say to yourself "One day it will be like us, it will PROGRESS as we have... therefor one day it will be sentient"

Very flawed logic

As for me "pulling them out of thin air"... My statments and beliefs are grounded not only in scientific theoretical study, but logical analysis with an incredible amount of existing scientific data to support it... I am one of those very "abnormal" people who enjoys reading published works on scientific discoveries.... None of it comes out of the "hat".


BTW, FYI... Doctors now believe that the brain actually DOES generate NEW neurons with age. Althought they are not sure if these new cells form fully fledged neurons they do create what they call quasi-neurons that form NEW connections between existing neurons of the brain...

The natural extrapolation of this is that it supports what we KNOW about people becoming wise with age.

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-01-2000 at 11:13 PM]

[kedaman]

I'm going to dig even deeper than Gen-x:

Actually I have done that already, but nobody seemed to answer me on my big big big big Q i posted in the beginning.
I give yuo 100 chocolate boxes even the most stupid answers to this.

Is there anything that is called "SOULS"? Is there anything that is not bound to physical behaivour in this world that is connected to LIFE

Believing in souls don't make this **** easier, im not saying believing in god is the same thing as believing in souls, so i suppose you can:
1. Think that we have souls
2. We don't have souls
This makes:
1. We have souls, we cannot be replicated, copied, our bodies cannot live without a soul.
2. We don't have souls, we can be copied, we are machines of meat and blood, our brains are computers, we respond, behave, think according to a system, that is our brain. We have no actual "INTELLIGENCE" so we cannot create ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE", or we have to redefine INTELLIGENCE so that what we have IS INTELLIGENCE, resulting in that WE CAN CREATE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE

Well, i didn't tell anything about AI in the first point. But what i think, this is most important thing, the lost root directory in the tree that Gen-x builded. The first one will go to Gen-x subdirectories

Now anyone want chocolate?

Bonus question, what is SENTIENT then? 20 chocolate boxes. Sam had pointed something about Genetics. Any clues?


if you want deep, check out the post "Evolution (for those who care)". that post has all these kinds of posts times 3

Hehe, Do you know who started this mess? :D If you do, and know why, you then should now why i'm offering that much chocolate

no i do not believe in a soul. i do believe we are totally able to be copied, we are just meat, bones, organs, etc... no "devine" substance lies within us.

about us being intellegent, i have never thought of that. are we created so that we will never be smarter than a certain point? i dont know, i cant answer that, but i am sure that we will one day be smart enough to create a partialy sentient being. even if its as dumb as a fly, it is sentient nevertheless. i dont even think it is that far away before we create a dumb life form that thinks on its own. give it another 100 years and genetic enginering will be able to do some pretty crazy things.

[kedaman]

I didn't see Gen-x last post when i was to post my last post so i have to post my replies into this post. Hope you got it.

But guess what!?!?!
You have created an AI Aomeba!!! Woohoo!!!

What's so funny about that. If we can create AI, we can make it learn zillion times faster than evolution, because of human input to that AI.
WE can give it:
2. A perfect environment conducive to evolution
3. ALL required resources
4. The EXACT stimuli at the EXACT required times
trough enough scientific researh we will learn to advance AI enough fast way so that we can look forward in having more intelligent AI than we are, in near future. I'm not refering to my last post, I'm looking from your aspect.


WE decide its made of silion
WE decide to use electricity or light
WE decide to put resistors in it
WE decide to use copper circuitboards

Now refering to my last post, i suppose we can make organic machines one day. Until then we can experiment with silicon.

The universe doesn't play by those rules. Humanity has been evolving, we compare ourselves to our ancestors of 1000 years ago and we say "We have improved". We see that it is a steady increase and we say "We KEEP improving therefor we will CONTINUE to improve".

I thought you didn't believe in evolution. Have you changed side or are you making another point from our view?

[kedaman]

Thanks hdem2, now im waiting for Gen-x to give his thoughts about "souls".

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

I believe that all forms of "sentient" life have an intangable and unquantifyable aspect to their existance that could be called a "soul". It is also called the spirit, Chi, Chakra and many other things to many other people

Your right... it doesn't have to have any religious connotation at all, in fact if you read the book "Ender's Game" that I mentioned to you before by Orson Scott Card you will find out his definition of what these souls are.

This doesn't preclude the ability for other sentient life from having them because they exist as a result of our force of WILL.

"I think therefor I am"

It is this statement that draws the essense of a human being to itself.

This then leads to what the definition of "Sentience" actually is.... Is a Dog sentient? How about a bird? A gorilla?

Basically my view is that sentience is an "AWARENESS" of your own existance, and the ability to effect that existance knowingly.

In this sense creatures like Dogs and Birds might NOT be considered sentient because althought they are alive they are purely instinctive creatures and their "intelligence" is instinct (or genetic) driven and NOT intellect driven.

Human beings are the ONLY species that has been able to ALTER the course of its own existance. We live in constructed buildings, we fly to the moon, we do things BEYOND our genetic programming.

THIS is sentience... simply wagging your tail, saving the young boy from drowning or being "sheepish" when you were caught chasing the chickens is only following the instinctual responses that were built in.


What's so funny about that. If we can create AI, we can make it learn zillion times faster than evolution, because of human input to that AI.


Ouch! What do you think happens to life forms that evolve zillions of times faster than they are supposed to? They DESTROY THEMSELVES!!!

Why do you think we took this long to get where we are? because that was the time required to make these dramatic changes. Sometimes Faster is NOT a better option


WE can give it:
2. A perfect environment conducive to evolution
3. ALL required resources
4. The EXACT stimuli at the EXACT required times


And how do we know exactly what the perfect environment is? or the resources? Don't forget WE made the choice of the materials it uses... who is to say that those materials are the right ones? Are we not now trying to FORCE life to exist against the natural laws of physics and the universe?

We don't even know what the perfect environment IS, or the required resources... so how can we give them to a construction of our own design?


Now refering to my last post, i suppose we can make organic machines one day.


They are called "clones"... and we are yet to see if a "soul" exists as a result of cloning a "sentient" form of life other than an instinctive one like a sheep or a monkey


I thought you didn't believe in evolution. Have you changed side or are you making another point from our view?


I said I don't believe in DARWIN's theory of evolution. I don't believe its mutation, and I dont believe its survival of the fitest. Don't confuse that with the fact that we ARE evolving... its just the trigger and the vehicle that I disagree with.

Evolution is as I said... a natural progression, the organisms pre-programmed response to the environmental factors around it.

This explains why an entire SPECIES gains a particular trait... because they are all influenced by that same environment. If you believe in Darwin, one Bat mutates Sonar and suddenly a million Bats mutate the same thing... I am surprised people don't see how absoulutely stupid that sounds.

[privoli]

i cant be stuffed reading so im just gonna spam and say hi

[Sam Finch]

I like Gen-X's definition of the soul, however I still don't agree, I think what you have missed out in your philosophy is that it's human nature to rebel and question, this can be attributed to our DNA, Also our parents are not the only influence on us, our freinds, teachers, people on the telly all influence us in some way, what forms us is this whole mixing pot of Ideas, nobody questioned the Idea of God in the Middle Ages because there were no influences to the contrary. The soul as I was told is the part of you that lives after you die, If we don't accept this, and I don't believe in the Idea of the afterlife, I posted my view somewhere on this thread. What is left for the role of the soul?

[Gen-X]

Sam... Throw the word "Soul" out the window.

Think of it as your "essence"... or "Chi" if you want to be Oriental, "Chakra" if you want to be Indian, "Mojo" if you want to be Austin Powers ;)

Basically its a word to describe that which is PURELY yourself. Something that your genetics says otherwise and something your entire influencial circle says otherwise.

Gallileo tried to tell the Catholic Church that the earth was NOT the centre of the Solar System. The use of his telescope showed him the revolution of the planets and that they were not around earth (I think he spotted Venus or something).

Before that he was DEVOUTLY catholic and the entire environment of the time was that of the Earth being Geocentric to our solar system.

It wasn't a "rebellion" that caused him to make the change, he didn't set out to prove something wrong for its own sake, and he certainly didn't just believe everything that had been taught to him and was passed via genetics.

What he did was have the perspicacity to actually realise for himself that DESPITE everything he knew and felt down to the very CORE of his bones was incorrect.....

THAT is the soul. THAT is what sets us apart from animals, why we have developed beyond then and WHY we do NOT just use instinct.

Look at animals.

You hit them every time they go to eat food, they will LEARN to be scared when eating food [THE MIND]

They are born with the knowledge on how to survive in their environment. It is their INSTINCT.... [THE BODY]

But they have NO soul... they can only act INSTINCTIVELY and with the knowledge they have gained during their survival (ie Dodge the water... nearly drowned, avoid the cave... bear nearly killed me).

Human beings have MORE than just that... heck, we have a Neo-Cortex after all!!! We can overcome things we KNOW to be dangerous and things even our BODIES know to be dangerous and still do them... Animals would never do that unless the alternative was death itself.

Surely even you can see the difference here?

True, but DNA does control most of this. Sure you have different personalities but all those personalities can be found in your DNA. Once your mind is used to a certian type of personality, it is easily accessable for your mind.

[Sam Finch]

I can't remember my history but Gallelao was renaisence right, and a mathematician, he had a great intelect (BODY) and views to challenge what he saw (MIND) it wasn't his soul, or his chi(a bodily energy at the center of chineese medicine, a substance which can flow from person to person and is not a unique personal thing) or his essence (a smell, or flavor) why as humans do we have souls and not other animals, where along the evolutionary ladder did we aquire one? your personality is purley a combination of nature and nurture, if there is such a thing as a soul I don't think it is this.

[kedaman]

Gen-x:

Identical Twins are seperated at birth and go to live in 2 totally different places. After several years they are brought together and amazingly they exhibit some extremely similar characteristics despite the fact they were in different environments.

Two identical twins are not identical. In fact's it's gramatically wrong, there can't be two identical things, by many arguments, and this one will fall because two "identical twins" had the same DNA but are different bodies. The DNA will never build up a person without being affected by either mutation or environment. So your DNA is not you.


"SOUL"
Basically its a word to describe that which is PURELY yourself. Something that your genetics says otherwise and something your entire influencial circle says otherwise.

I asked you about "SOUL" as a part that is not of physical character. did you misunderstand me or did you answer me? Is "Soul" just a a word like "Hate", "Love" or "Math", or do you think Souls have a particular existance? Is soul an illusion? (Refering to evolution thread)

[Gen-X]

Sam

Galleleo Challenging common beliefs is NOT the Mind. The Mind is what you have been taught to be true, your education, culture, society...

In that respect Galleleo would have believed the earth was the centre of the universe... after all that is what he was always taught.

Thus it was him going AGAINST his mind, AGAINST what he had always told was true that he came to his conclusions.

The capacity for his intellect was his BODY (DNA), but not the content itself. The content was STILL his mind.

We acquired our "soul" when we became self-aware. When another Animal has reached the ability to actually gain true sentience (Go look at a SETI site for the definition of this) then we will know if they have a soul.

I have to ask if you agree with this first, because of you dont' even agree with THIS simple concept then there isn't any use in continuing.

And seeing as you are now looking up words and applying the incorrect meaning to them (typical problem with the english language) how about trying to look up the word facecious :mad:

Magatron
DNA does NOT control most of this. I can exhibit ANY personality I want, neurons have NO chemical bonds in the neo-cortex when you are born.. it is your UPBRINGING that establishes those bonds.

DNA is a blueprint for FUNCTION. This means that it IS possible to have defects, mental conditions and the like in your DNA but it is NOT something that will tell you that you will be a stubborn person, or a jealous one, or a happy-go-lucky one... that comes from your experiences.


Kedaman
"Identical" in this means "Started with the same DNA template". This means that gentically at birth they are the same. Of course mutation can change this "slightly"... but it wont cause them to suddenly sprout hair or grow a tail now will it?

I know you do not natively speak english, which means some of the meaning behind it is lost. The tests were done to show that similar genetics can in SOME cases show similar personalities.. but not ALWAYS.

It was done to show that your DNA is not wholely responsible for what you are... just as other tests were dont to show that your upbringing wasn't wholely responsible.

They came to the conclusion that it was a "combination of both".

Its just MY theory that there is an esoteric part that there is a 3rd source and to my mind this explains why not EVERYONE who had an alcoholic father didn't become one themselves.

[Sam Finch]

Originally posted by Sam Finch
I can't remember my history but Gallelao was renaisence right, and a mathematician, he had a great intelect (BODY) and views to challenge what he saw (MIND) it wasn't his soul, or his chi(a bodily energy at the center of chineese medicine, a substance which can flow from person to person and is not a unique personal thing) or his essence (a smell, or flavor) why as humans do we have souls and not other animals, where along the evolutionary ladder did we aquire one? your personality is purley a combination of nature and nurture, if there is such a thing as a soul I don't think it is this.


sorry my bad, I didn't write what I thought I'd written

The Point Was that Galleleo was Part of the reneissance, every body was challening the views around them, that was the thing to do at the time. He was influenced by those around him.

The only example I can think of of your "Soul People" is someone who is mentally disturbed and acts irrationaly, Is this what you mean by a soul?

Gen-X: What controls your perosnality then? You feelings are different functions in your DNA. It has to be some form of matter that controls you.

[kedaman]

Simply put (what megatron said) Do you think "soul" is of physical character? Is there a code how of how you act? Or has "soul" no scientific explanation?

It must be some form of matter that has the instructions to influence your behavior. Therefor, if you're an angry person, your DNa will make your feeling of anger and rage more easily accessable than your other feelings.

[Gen-X]

Why MUST it be some form of matter that influences your behavior?

I agree that some people may have a genetic disposition TOWARDS a particular behavior (hereditary spouse beating for instance) but that doesn't mean you will do it.

Some people have the ability to OVERCOME what their genetics tell them to do.

Imagine this :

- A man's father was an alcoholic
- The man himself "feels" the lure of alcohol
- But the man doesn't drink... in fact he stops himself


This has shown that even with a genetic weakness towards that area he can MENTALLY overcome that weakness.


This is how people sometimes CURE diseases like obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), gambling, smoking and drinking... They train their MINDS to overcome what their bodies are telling them.

While I agree with you Mega that the body DOES contain some of these behavioral traits, it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING comes from genetics... the mind and the construction of neural pathways can completely ALTER a persons personality, behavior and even bodily function (See Stigmata... its where the MIND believes so strongly it can actually cause itself to bleed).

[Sam Finch]

Your example of the alchoholic, I've seen cases like this, the son doesn't drink because He has learnt from his Father's mistakes, I still don't understand where the Soul part of your psychological makeup comes in.

Is stigmata like an extreme example of the power of suggestion, I've done some hypnotism in my time so I'm seen some lesser examples, (I've had people seeing Pink Elephants and stuff, and I had a guy walking backwards for half an hour asking everybody why on earth they were walking forwards) But Bleeding!! I'd be very impressed if someone managed that (or scared probably) Can it really be done?

[kedaman]

Gen-x, i was asking of what nature "soul" could be. Can you answer me?

Gen-X:

ALL of the instructions for you you are in your DNA your body thakes those functions and uses them! It's not some soul that does it. How can this non-matter soul affect a form of matter??

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

Read between the lines... I dont KNOW where the soul comes from, what it is... all I know is that I can see a distinct difference between matters of the mind and matters of the body that I personally put down to what I call a "soul"

Megatron

You really are not grasping this concept are you? I can understand it is your philosophy to think that a human being is a complex organic machine.. right down the the very last. That every single thing about us is pre-determined and that at some point in our future we can completely copy and recreate human beings like they were clumps of proto-matter.

Taking that into account I can see perfectly why you refuse to see anything other than that.


Imagine a car. The car is a machine that has all of the "functions" as you like to call it built in. It contains everything you need to drive, each of the components interact with each other and work...

But it has no DRIVER... without that driver it is simply a machine. You can turn it on, you can even point it in a single direction but it wont respond. You need something controlling the body.

The human body is made up of 2 different types of responses... Autonomous (heart beat, breathing, reflexes) functions that you do not control and that just WORK... it also has responses that you MUST control in order to function (walking, etc). Now we say that walking is a neural trigger from the brain to tell the limbs to move... but what tells the brain to send that impulse? It just triggers because a complex interconnection of billions of neurons just "happened" to come to the conclusion that I want to walk forward now?

That is what sentience is about... the ability to do something THAT HAS NOT BEEN PREDETERMINED.

Will I have a chocolate cake this morning or caramel? Mmmmm... I like both of them equally, I haven't had either of them in a long time.. Which to choose... which to choose.

Please Megatron.. tell me what my DNA tells me to pick?

Gen-X

Okay, I see your point now, and without a doubt, I don't think I can argue much further. But a soul is not a form of matter. How can non-matter influence matter? What happens to this soul after you cease to exsist? Even if this is true, does that mean that dogs cats and even protopla and bactera have souls as well?

[kedaman]

Read between the lines... I dont KNOW where the soul comes from, what it is... all I know is that I can see a distinct difference between matters of the mind and matters of the body that I personally put down to what I call a "soul"

Were' still on the same subject, same definition, YOUR DEFINITION. What is your "soul" that is not matter and interacts with it? OR DON'T YOU KNOW?


But it has no DRIVER... without that driver it is simply a machine. You can turn it on, you can even point it in a single direction but it wont respond. You need something controlling the body.

Of what nature is this driver? You can't missunderstand me one more time. You keep explaining what it does, and we all now it already, but you don't tell us what it is.

[Gen-X]

Kedaman

For @*#$^@#& sake!!

How many times do I have to explain to you that I DONT KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!

I told you that I can see a distinct difference that is not explained by either mind OR body and I have put it down to soul. I can make any number of postulations if it will make you feel better :

1. Particles from another dimension called Philotes that entwine when passing into OUR reality causing the atoms to form together to create us.

2. The creation in another dimension of our "essense" aquired when we reach sentience and are actually aware of ourselves.

3. A self-determining trans-dimensional, para-neuraletic consciousness that attaches itself to biological organisms


If I ask you who/what God is I am sure you will give me similar answers... you dont know yourself you just know it exists.

Megatron


But a soul is not a form of matter. How can non-matter influence matter?


Is Time matter? Yet it influences us?


What happens to this soul after you cease to exsist?


Personally I think that it does whatever it wants to do... if you are a christian then it goes to heaven (or hell if that is what you have chosen), if you are bhudist you go to bhuda, if you believe in reincarnation then you get reincarnated.

For me it explains why people see what their religious beliefs have taught them to see at the time of death/near death... the white light and all that...

If you think there is nothing but oblivion beyond death then that is exactly where your soul will go.


Even if this is true, does that mean that dogs cats and even protopla and bactera have souls as well?


Like I said before... my personal belief is that souls are a result of sentience... TRUE sentience... not just animalistic instinct. So dogs and cats dont have souls because they are purely instinctual creatures, they don't have the brain capacity to be able to support a driver.

Think of the car example again... We say the car can have a driver... But can a single wheel have a driver? Or how about a grain of rice? That is like saying bacteria has a soul

[Sam Finch]

I told you that I can see a distinct difference that is not explained by either mind OR body and I have put it down to soul. I can make any number of postulations if it will make you feel better :

1. Particles from another dimension called Philotes that entwine when passing into OUR reality causing the atoms to form together to create us.

2. The creation in another dimension of our "essense" aquired when we reach sentience and are actually aware of ourselves.

3. A self-determining trans-dimensional, para-neuraletic consciousness that attaches itself to biological organisms


I think that'll keep Kedman happy, I think I see what you mean by the soul, do you mean that the soul is the personality itself, born from Nature and Nurture like a child is born from its parents, am I at least barking in the right forest?

Gen-X

If WE have souls, than every living being should have a soul. We are no differnet. We all have the 7 characteristics of life. If think that all this mumble jumble was created back in the old days when technology was not so advanced and people are crazy believers. These traditions carried on and some people still believe them.

If this is true. How did people first come up with the idea of a soul? Or how did someone come up with heaven or hell or reincarnation? Has anyone actually seen/experienced these things?

[Gen-X]

Sam

Your sort of in the right forest... but instead of it being a "combination" of nature and nurture I think it is something that is "neither" nature OR nurture.

Megatron


If WE have souls, than every living being should have a soul. We are no differnet. We all have the 7 characteristics of life. If think that all this mumble jumble was created back in the old days when technology was not so advanced and people are crazy believers. These traditions carried on and some people still believe them.


Maybe you should read again what I said about a driver... some "machines" just simply cannot be driven, they simply function based on the commands they were given (instinct) while others can actually have a driver take control and get them to do things that were beyond their mechanical abilities (sentience)

So in this respect we are VERY much different... firstly we (and the other primates) are the only creatures in existance to have a neo-cortex, which is the outer layer of the brain responsible for higher order functions.


If this is true. How did people first come up with the idea of a soul? Or how did someone come up with heaven or hell or reincarnation? Has anyone actually seen/experienced these things?


"soul" is just a name. In fact it is an anglo-saxon christianic word which they use to describe the spirit of a person that goes to either heaven or hell.

In oriental culture they are "ghosts", in the greek culture they are "spirits" or "avatars".

The point is that WE decided what they were and where they lead us. That was my point about people going where they WANT to go when they die... If they have decided you get reincarnated and they came up with the concept of what it is then for THEM that is exactly where they will go. Maybe that means another dimension, another reality, or just an infinate loop of proto-matter...

Heck... maybe OUR universe is a collection of "souls" that some other trans-dimensional species dreamed up as a place where they go when they die :)

[Sam Finch]

Sam

Your sort of in the right forest... but instead of it being a "combination" of nature and nurture I think it is something that is "neither" nature OR nurture.



I thought that was what I said, the soul is "born" from your DNA and your experience, kinda like I was born from my parents, I'm neither my mother nor my father but I'm still a combination of the 2 (don't push this analysis too far, the similarity probably ends quie quickly) Is that what you meant?

Is that outer part of the brain the place where the soul is created? No. Therefor, it doesn't matter if we have 100 layers. There are several different nerves in the brain that extract functions from your DNA and that helps you live.

The example with the driver and the car: The driver is like your nerves sending signals to yourself, not a soul.

[Sam Finch]

I don't think he means the soul is a physical thing, kinda like a computer program, a number or an Idea isn't a physical thing, it's known as an abstract noun. The soul is your personality itself, I think that's what he's saying.

Does anyone here get the station TLC? If so, there was a 1 hour special on this evolution bit. They said that at the beginning, an atom was created out of nothing. How is the possible?

[Sam Finch]

he he there still trying to puzzle that out, I don't think they're saying it was created from nothing, it was created from a singularity, kinda like a black hole in reverse.

[kedaman]

Is Time matter? Yet it influences us?

It does not, because without time nothing can influence nothing. So as definition says, Time is the reason for influence.



I told you that I can see a distinct difference that is not explained by either mind OR body and I have put it down to soul. I can make any number of postulations if it will make you feel better :

1. Particles from another dimension called Philotes that entwine when passing into OUR reality causing the atoms to form together to create us.

2. The creation in another dimension of our "essense" aquired when we reach sentience and are actually aware of ourselves.

3. A self-determining trans-dimensional, para-neuraletic consciousness that attaches itself to biological organisms


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that'll keep Kedman happy, I think I see what you mean by the soul, do you mean that the soul is the personality itself, born from Nature and Nurture like a child is born from its parents, am I at least barking in the right forest?

I'm happy with what you have given me Gen-x, that's exactly what i wanted you to say. Now I ask you one more thing, if consiousness is not dependent of matter, created when new humans are born, and goes it's own way when they're leave the biological organism, what do you think is more fact, that we are, or that universe is? This causes a conflict in our universe, that physics cannot explain: Nothing is interacting with something, Hence we or universe cannot exist. Do you agree on this or not?

Also if no one else have an explanation for this, I say I have.

[Gen-X]

Actually they are kind of right when they say it was created out of nothing.... but you have to understand the "perspective" from which it was meant.

We have proved that particles "appear" inside a vaccum. This is basically the same principle.

All atoms consist of 3 Quarks and depending on whether its a proton, electron or neutron determines which of those quarks it is (I think there ar 7 types of quarks).

It is believed that Quarks exist in a "field" that is outside the perception or "existance" of our 3rd Dimension. Just like the Sun is a process of Hydrogen atoms colliding and fusing to form Helium (it doesn't happen so much that the entire sun is Helium... its a gradual process of conversion) some believe that the universe is a process of Quarks colliding and fusing into atoms... at which point they leave this "field" an phase into what WE consider reality.

So from the point of view of the person in OUR reality they would see "something... created out of... nothing"

I know that doesn't sit well with you Megatron... you like to think that every single thing in existance is completely and totally made of matter, that it MUST have some form and that it MUST come from somewhere.

Sam
No you still misunderstand what I mean by "soul". It is not something born of the two things... it is NOT something that comes as a result of the other 2...

I can't state it any more clearly than this :

I believe the soul has NOTHING to do with DNA and NOTHING to do with conditioning/education. It is COMPLETELY seperate from your mind and TOTALLY seperate from your body.

It is NOT something that sprouts from the combination of the two (and remaining distinct from either one), it is something that develops completely on its own.

The only thing that can change is which of the 3 components you follow most... MIND, BODY or SOUL. Some people might have a terrible experience in their life which causes the MIND to exhurt over the top of both body AND soul. That doesn't mean its changed.

Megatron
You can't see passed it can you?

If the car/driver is like your brain sending signals to itself that is like saying the car battery telling the car to drive. You need something EXTERNAL to a machine to get it going... it may have a power source like a battery and combustable fuel like petrol... but it is still only going to drive in a stright line.

I never SAID that it was our neo-cortex where the soul is born... I said it was the neo-cortex that gives US the ability to actually be sentient... and that it is the SENTIENCE that gives us a soul... whether that soul comes into existance as a result of our awareness or it "attaches" itself because our SENTIENCE is actually an anchor I don't know.

But I ask you this Megatron... Why is it that human beings are the only species that can SPEAK, WRITE, READ among other things... because we hare just highly developed instinctual animals?!?! We *ARE* different to every other form of life on this planet.

Think about Apes. We are told that they are our ancestors. Through evolution we were the end product of millions of years of evolution from Apes. If that were the case, then why are there no longer ANY of the inbetween steps from US to THEM? Surely if Neanderthal man was better able to survive (hence the WHOLE reason he evolved from apes) then HE would be here and THEY would not?

Hasn't it ever bothered you the fact that the ENDS of the evolutionary chain exist but the middle is strangely non-existant? I agree that our DNA makeup is the same, but then again isn't "most" life the same? 2 occular units, 1 heart unit, 2 lung units, rib-cage.. etc, etc. (I'm excluding crustatians, jelly fish and the like for the moment, their environmental stimulous for development is greatly different from ours). It isn't a co-incidence that ALL bipedal and quadrapedal forms of life share the SAME traits of existance.... it also isn't coincidence that homo sapien is the ONLY form of life with a neo-cortex and we just happen to be the only form of life that develops art, philosophy, literature etc...

You can't tell me we are just the same as animals in anything but a biological sense.

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-10-2000 at 07:36 PM]

[Gen-X]

kedaman

Who ever said "nothing" influences "something"?

That I say my personal opinion on what a soul is, does not constitute matter does NOT mean it is "nothing".

Perhaps by our definition of what "something" and "nothing" are you could say that but as you could read from what it might be, it could be like quarks... something that exists outside of our 3rd-dimension (has no substance) and yet because it exists in another place that has an intersection with our dimension (funny enough, right at the point where WE are) that it is the reason for us having control.

Now I am sure you have an explaination for what it is and where it comes from... I have known from the beginning of your questioning about my opinion that you have been wanting to head directly towards "God is the reason for our soul, it comes from HIM, HE controls it"... It has been so obvious from the moment you asked the question, as if you were trying to lead me in that direction form the beginning.. not because it was a natural direction to go... but because it was the direction YOU wanted to go.

If it makes you happy to accept my opinion but twist it to say that God is responsible for it then enjoy the rapture it brings you... but that isn't what I am saying and it certainly isn't the direction I would go.

So I guess I have to summarise for you my singular opinion as to why God does NOT exist.

- Assumption : God created the universe
- Requires : God to be omniscient and sentient
- Sentience is an exhibition of control
- It is an influence that can "direct"
- It is the antithesis of instinct which only "reacts"
- Our universe is about "reactions" not "anticipations"
- Therefor if God controls our universe he is NOT sentient
- If he is NOT sentient then is is not a "being"
- If he is NOT a being then he can only be a "force"
- Therefor remove the label of "God" because that is a being

I am not saying that the above statements are scientific in any way... it is a simple explaination of why I personally disbelieve in a creator philosophy, because for me the existance of a creator indicates a known and obvious existance in the universe.... and I do not need to function thinking there is any reason, purpose or "goal" to be achieved... if there is they are the goals we set for ourselves as human beings and as the human race.

I believe in ideas such as honesty, compassion, sincerity, honor, respect for life and everything else... but they are not qualities dictated to us by some supreme being... they are concepts that WE have developed and choose to follow.... just like "some" of us choose to follow the concept that they were created by someone else.

I just don't see why we are the only form of life woith a soul. Surely we are much more intelligent but that doesn't make a differnce. Bears and Lions are much stronger than us. Shouldn't that count as "special qualities"?

I like your example of the car and the driver but it just doesn't make sense to me that there is some form of Non-matter controlling me and telling me to write all of this. I belive it's a combination of nerve signals and functions from your DNA that make us up. There is no external source telling me what to do.

how do these "souls" get created? When do they get created. When we are a small zygote? embryo? half-born? How does this souce of non-matter attract itself to humans and when does it do it?

[Sam Finch]

OK, now I don't know what you mean by the soul, the way I see it you have your personality, the thing that makes decisions. This is shaped by Your DNA and outside influences on your personality.

Are you saying there's something else that influences it. where does this soul come from? your DNA and your experiences combine in a very complicated way, i'd say chaotic but it's probably not something maths and chaos can describe. the point is just because people don't turn out like their parents doesn't mean there's any other "Factor" to your personality if you look at the smoking thread ravcam is increadibly anti smoking because his parents smoked. I'm influeced more by my freinds than my parents. your personality is a combination of your DNA and all the influences around you, some of them you adapt to positivly others negativly. I don't think a third influence is involved, especially not one that doesn't seem to be accounted for anywhere.

[kedaman]

Now I am sure you have an explaination for what it is and where it comes from... I have known from the beginning of your questioning about my opinion that you have been wanting to head directly towards "God is the reason for our soul, it comes from HIM, HE controls it"... It has been so obvious from the moment you asked the question, as if you were trying to lead me in that direction form the beginning.. not because it was a natural direction to go... but because it was the direction YOU wanted to go.

No i'm not pointing at God. Actually i'm pointing at myself. This theory is clearly differing from my beliefs in God. I would say god created humans but i wouldn't say he created our souls, that's what differing my theories here: There was a will from the beginning, ONE will, it was god, and not telling you how it actually worked out but now, theres are billions of wills, all pointing in different directions, trying to change "universe", which is a shared illusion in that sense that god dreamed about this before all this, and after the split, we share that dream, because we're connected. I'm telling you that universe does not exist, that it's an illusion, that we control it and we are all parts of god. End of theory. Now you can't kick me for that because you have nothing to take logics from when they are illusions. Also, you can't kick out god from this universe because he already is. You can't apply logics from this universe, or this illusion on god because nothing says that he can only be this or that but this and that or none or/and both of them at the same time. In english: How on earth can you explain something that is not explainable. It has even been written in the bible

I can tell you that god' does not exist. Simple, true and fact, all at the same time because when we use exist word, we have always used, it, we refer to something that's not. Also "Nothing" was Nothing becase it's not in our universe. And whats not in an illusion can be true. Did you get my point? You told me about dimensions, i think there are just as much as we see them, because they are illusions, there can't be more than what we can't see. If we found more of them, they will be only added to the illusion.

From the other side, Universe exists. God does not, because he is not in it, and universe is definition for everything so if God isn't there then he can't exist. Simple, true and fact.

Now this theory is my explanation but that's not what i believe in, because i believe in God. If you think i'm so stupid that i would believe in him for stupidity then point your finger at the rest of religious humanity, including yourself because if you believe in universe then thats your stupid religion.

I'm totally sceptical to everything except myself, my "soul" the driver that is so blind, he have nothing to look at but he want it so much that he can see it: Universe

[Gen-X]

Megatron


I just don't see why we are the only form of life woith a soul. Surely we are much more intelligent but that doesn't make a differnce. Bears and Lions are much stronger than us. Shouldn't that count as "special qualities"?


What do "special qualities" have to do with it? It isn't STRENGTH that determines soul its the ability to do something external to your environment and your influences.

A lion is a lion is a lion... it never acts like a human or acts like a fish. The reason for this is that lions and bears are INSTINCTUAL. They do what they do because their genetics PROGRAMS them to do it. They eat, they play, they procreate, they die. Everything they do is based purely on the genetic memory that was programmed into them at birth... and as they grow up their parents "teach" them, what they have learned... MIND and BODY.

Humanity is different. It is our INSTINCT (Body) to procreate... and yet more and more people choose NOT to... have you ever known an animal to ABSTAIN from sex because it didn't feel like making babies?

Or a lion that turned down a deer even when it was ravenously hungry because it felt SORRY for the deer?

Of course not!!!! THAT is the difference between US and THEM. We can make the choice that goes against everything INSTINCTUAL and everything TAUGHT. (Are you reading this bit Sam?)


I like your example of the car and the driver but it just doesn't make sense to me that there is some form of Non-matter controlling me and telling me to write all of this. I belive it's a combination of nerve signals and functions from your DNA that make us up. There is no external source telling me what to do.


Now this is where you have it wrong. "IT" is "YOU". Its not telling you what to do... YOU are telling YOU what to do. Its still your brain, its still your body... but it is ALSO YOUR soul. Some people believe that the existance of this "soul" can be seen in auras when you look at people through radiographic spectrums... This "radiance" is far brighter in human beings than it is in any animal.


how do these "souls" get created? When do they get created. When we are a small zygote? embryo? half-born? How does this souce of non-matter attract itself to humans and when does it do it?


Ok. I am going to "theorise" here. Take into account this is jut off the top of my head.

How do these "souls" get created?
They are not created. They are just like Quarks. They are "particles" that all float around somewhere.

When do they get created?
When Quarks meet under certain conditions and there are 3 of them then they form an atom. "souls" are created when the conditions are met to bring them into existence... OUR existence.

When we are a zygote? embryo? half-born?
Here is the funny thing. Lets take a baby. It was born with instincts, the ability to breath under water etc, etc... It knows how to breath, it wants to eat, it wants to poop. At this stage it is purely instinctual. There comes a point when this "being" finally realises that it exists... it doesn't just LIVE any more, it doesn't just DO... suddenly it realises that it has its own existance, its own willpower, its own abilities. I believe at THAT point the soul comes into existance.

How does this souce of non-matter attract itself to humans and when does it do it?

Imagine this. We have a stream of water. In that stream are lots of weeds. The weeds continue to float down river. Suddenly there is a STICK in the river and a weed gets "caught" on it.

Now lets consider the fact that we exist in the 3rd dimension. At some point we come to TRUE sentience, and it is THIS sentience that creates a STICK in the river. Now lets say that the "conditions" under which the quarks form is that there is a STICK in the river.

At the point of our sentience we create a conduit, a "presence" in a higher dimension that is not VISIBLE to our own here in the 3rd dimension. As the contents of this other dimension are say "philotes" (for want of a better word), they are snagged on this new presence in their dimension and our "soul" is formed.

Now this "soul" can be shaped by our DNA and it can be shaped by our "mind"... its now connected to us symbiotically and so just as we can damage ourselves it gets damaged as well. If our mind is hurt it could hurt the soul.

(This ones for you Sam)

But it does NOT mean that the soul was CREATED as a product of the BODY and the MIND... if you have a particularly STRONG philote then it resists the effects of the body and the mind... in fact if it is THAT string it can sometimes CHANGE the body and the mind...

To challenge you Sam... lets take a family.

Father bashes his wife. His son grows up in an environment where his DNA tells him to bash his partner and his EDUCATION tells him to bash his partner...

How then is it possible that he will grow up to do something DIFFERENT when both his MENTAL and his DNA influences both tell him the same thing????

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-10-2000 at 11:11 PM]

[Sam Finch]

OK, I'll work this through for you.

The childs DNA doesn't say he is a wife beater, he might have got his Doa I beat my wife gene from his mothers side and that might be a don't beat your wife gene, but even if he get's it from his fathers side, it's unlikley to be a beat your wife gene, He'll probably loose his temper quite quickly, but he won't neccacerraly be pre-programmed to beat his wife, he could beat his temper by taking up yoga or some way of learning to control his temper. If we look at the Nurtur side, he could see the wife beating in one of two ways.

He sees wife beating as the done thing or

He sees how muich his mother is hurt by his father and goes against his fathers habits by not beating his wife, He has learnt by his experience, because his DNA tells him to.

also he could start out by seeing it happen and believing that this is what happens, but other influences could suggest this is wrong.

we do not need this 3rd influence to explain why people do not take ater their parents, there are so many influences and so many ways he could be influenced that he could turn out in any way at all.

They believe that the Universe first started as matter floating around. It then exploded. It's gravity was so high that it pulled everything back in and blew up again. There is proof that the Universe is expanding. They prove this by using radio waves. This is kinda what it would look like. If the Universe wasnt expanding "M". The Universe as it grows..."(\/)" the radio waves are longer and they are spreading farther and farther apart. Our moon moves away from Earth 1 inch every year. The Univese will prolly expand forever. It's very cool. Just wish we could get out there in Spaceships to explore. That means, ALL HUMANS!!!..sorry to sound smart and ****, but Astronomy and Space is my favorite subject :)

[Edited by Matthew Gates on 05-11-2000 at 04:04 PM]

Gen-X

Read what Sam had wrote. I think similar to hyim on this subject. There are millions of functions of your DNA. For example: You wake up in the morning and want to have either chocolate or caramal. You have tried them before so your body remembers and stores the tastes of both of them. So you like both of them. Your DNA functions will retrieve that information and select a choice for you. NOT your soul.

[Sam Finch]

Mathew, Dorry to ruin you're moment, but there was no before the big bang, there was no time at the big bang, it's quite hard to say why, time does funny things in gravitational fields like that, it's why you can't get out of a black hole, because there's no time in them for you to get out in.

Actually, Sam, theoretically, a black hole is like a Einstine-Rosen bridge. It is said that every black hole leads you to what is called a white hole. It's just the oppostie of a black hole. It throws everything out. Anyway, when you get sucked in, you are thrown out through a white hole and into a parallel Universe.

This may sound stupid but what is a Quark. From what I've head they are particals that when formed a group of 3, they form an atom...Someone else mentioned that in the beginning, it was a collisionof quarks that created the first atom. but how can that be. If in the beginning there was no particals, how could a quark have exsisted?

A black hole forms when a Super Giant Star explodes. It is then filled with negative atoms and mass. It gravity is so strong and heavy-weighted...it will crush you like a bug, if your talking bout the black hole of space. When you get out into space..dont go near a black hole :P.

Damn, all this bullshit talk...i guess that's why the board is called "chit chat."

:)

[Edited by Matthew Gates on 05-24-2000 at 08:53 PM]

[Sam Finch]

I think that's a science fiction theory, based on rotating black holes, rotating black holes have an inside which is as large as the outside, they have 2 event horizons one on the inside and one on the outside, when you go through the black hole is still a rotating black hole but the inside is where you came from, this sounds like a "White hole" but white holes don't make too much sense in physics, it could be another black hole which you managed to get out from by gaining enough speed going into it in the first place. I don't understand the physics of why you can't get out of them (Don't say it's because the escape velocity is faster than the speed of light, that's not it) so I can't really say. Or it could be the big bang of another universe as I have said time works in mysterious ways.

[kedaman]

Astronomy and Space was my favorite subject about 7 years ago. Now i have none. Everything's extreemly in favour thats debated around Science, Math, Philosophy and Religion. I've read that theory about universe expanding for ever and didn't like it. After say about 10^64 years we have not even black holes and neutron stars left, just distant distant particles.

For spaceships:

I don't think thats going to be a big thing if we can't pass space without having to use a whole star of energy to accelerate into a enough satisfying speed, ie 32c. I had posted my theory about starlanes of Warped space to transfer matter between planets but i only got some "that's only star trekky scifi"-replies. Now i have to post it again. Building starlanes of warped space that runs trough normal space around a set of habitable planets is a possibility in future. If we expand all over Milky way, we have a network of those, and with different warp speed, like speedlimits in traffic, or cables transfering data in internet. This isn't any science fiction i'm talking about, it's just a matter of time and we have the right tools to create this network.

what is a Quark. From what I've head they are particals that when formed a group of 3,they form an atom...Someone else mentioned that in the beginning, it was a collisionof quarks that created the first atom. but how can that be. If in the beginning there was no particals, how could a quark have exsisted?

[Sam Finch]

someone back me up on this, but I've said it several times.

There was no Before the big bang

it's one of these things that's hard to accept, but it has been "proved" I don't like having to put that word in quotes but otherwise Gen-X will have a go at me the theory of the big bang was worked out mathematicly, and the maths shows that there was no time before the big bang, it's part of the big bang theory.

Anyway, as I was saying, there just was the universe, as a singularity, which rapidly expanded into the early universe.

There is a wierd explanation in physics involving complex numbers but I don't fully understand it and don't have a hope of explaining it. Gen-X, got an explanation? :D

No matter how much we learn..we will prolly never ever find out the truth. It's just meant to be as is. There is the future. The past can only be guessed at, while the future, is what we control. At least, here on Earth, how we make of it. The Universe is automatic..does everything by itself and we cannot change that. Damn...had to get that out, i feel so much better :). Its nice talking about a subject I love for once. Some people that "understand". Alotta people dont take an interest in space enough to talk about it. But i forgot, i have people from all over the world who can talk about it that wonder whats beyond.

New Subject: Scientist believe we were first on Mars and came here by Asteroids (our molecules and stuff, that is).

Care to talk about that new subject now?

[Gen-X]

Megatron

You really, really can't get over this hurdle can you? Everyone else is jumping over and you keep hitting the wall :(

- Quarks exist
- 3 of them are found inside each proton, electron and neutron
- They have NEVER been found in singles
- If you break them apart they DISAPPEAR (NOT expend energy and change form... they just CEASE to exist)

To try and get passed your obsession with everything having to consist of matter...

QUARKS DO NOT EXIST IN OUR UNIVERSE AS SINGLE ENTITIES. THEY ONLY PHASE INTO THE 3RD DIMENSION WHEN IN COMBINATION WITH 2 OTHER QUARKS

Its like OXYGEN. When it is very cold its like a block of Ice... you can touch it and see it... but when it heats up it changes STATE to a gas. As a gas you can neither SEE it or TOUCH it. The molecule O2 has therefor "PHASED" in and out of the visible spectrum.

Some believe Quarks actually exist outside of our dimension and only come into it when in sets of 3... others believe that they exist in our dimension but are "PHASED" such that we cannot see them until they resonate (which they only do as sets of 3)

I really wish you would get over this idea that everthing has to be made of matter... All I need to do is say the word "Anti-Matter", point to the extremely Large Particle Accelerators around the world and give you proof that things OTHER than matter exist.

Sam
Of all the theories of the start of the universe I think the cyclic big bang is the most likely. If Einstein was right that Matter bends Time/Space then the Universe would have been a finite size allowing you to travel in ANY direction and still end up where you started.

As the matter expanded so did the amount of "space" inside this universe. Things are not actually "getting further apart" as it were, they are instead getting "MORE SPACE BETWEEN THEM".

I know its hard to understand but it does show everything perfectly.

To "get further apart" means you have something to GROW INTO. The universe has nothing to grow into... there is nothing on the other side... you wont REACH an end just like you never reach the end of the world if you are keeping to the surface. The capacity for size within our universe is increasing but that is as a result of the matter dispersing, causing the bend in time/space to be less and less.

So to back Sam up, Time does not exist outside of our Universe, it wasn't there before the bang, and it wont be there when/if we come back in for another bang. Time requires 3 dimensions to function in, and those 3 dimensions are RULED by gravity and matter.

Anything outside of it just doesn't exist.

Gen-X

Let's get one thing straight here. I NEVER SAID THAT EVERYTHING WAS MADE UP OF MATTER! WHAT THE IS LIGHT THEN? WHAT ARE THOUGHTS? THEY ARE NOT MATTER.

Here's another question I hope that you guys can answer. Did did the Universe exsist befroe the big Bag. If there was no time, it is impossible to say if it was that way for countless ages or even the briefest moment. How could it have exsisted without time?

Can't we just say, "God created it"?
Damn, if the Universe existed before..it couldn't of always been just matter always floating there. Something had to create it. A great great being or something, right? And when you die, if there is an afterlife, do you learn all the answers to life, or do you just keep wondering for all eternity?

[Edited by Matthew Gates on 05-12-2000 at 08:19 PM]

[Dayo312]

If you understood how GOD CREATED this
world, then your would be to his level.
He CREATED you to be lower then him so
therefore you dont understand.

Dont think you can understand everything
cause you cant.

[kedaman]

1. There was no Before the big bang

2. I NEVER SAID THAT EVERYTHING WAS MADE UP OF MATTER! WHAT THE IS LIGHT THEN? WHAT ARE THOUGHTS? THEY ARE NOT MATTER

3. Of all the theories of the start of the universe I think the cyclic big bang is the most likely. If Einstein was right that Matter bends Time/Space then the Universe would have been a finite size allowing you to travel in ANY direction and still end up where you started.

4. Here's another question I hope that you guys can answer. Did did the Universe exsist befroe the big Bag. If there was no time, it is impossible to say if it was that way for countless ages or even the briefest moment. How could it have exsisted without time?

5. If you understood how GOD CREATED this
world, then your would be to his level.
He CREATED you to be lower then him so
therefore you dont understand.
Dont think you can understand everything
cause you cant.


(1,4,5). Exactly my point, In order to exist from a stage when we didn't, there must be time on both sides, before and after Bigbang. And That's not fact, because Universe have "always existed" in our terms, starting from big bang to now, and before Bigbang is nothing because "everything" is defined to everything inside Universe, and the logics of "There's nothing outside universe", "There's nothing before Big bang" is correct. Therefor we cannot apply logics on what's differing Universe from outside. We can never understand how, but we can always try.

So, as god is on a higher level of existance, outside logics of universe, there's nothing that stops him from knowing everything about our universe, contradicting that we are on a lower level, wherefrom we just can see our world and lower levels.

2. Fotons are particles, which is also what matter is.

3. That is another crazy theory Gen-x, You can't base everything on Einsteins theory of gravity and at the same time having autodynamics unsolved, they're conflicting and a lot tells that Einstein was wrong, but that was your idea from the first beginning.

Matter is anything that takesup wieth and space.

Picture a room full of photons. Are you going to be able to NOT enter it because there are to many photons? No. They don't take up space nor do they have any weight.

[kedaman]

Actually they have both, and they won't stop you from walking in to a room, because they will 1. be absorbed into your clothes or 2. reflect

But they don't take up any space nor do they have any weight. You can ask any scientist on this one.

[Sam Finch]

Gen-X



I'm midly confused about your quark Ideas.

you say singular quarks exist in another dimension?? That doesn't make sense, do you mean they exist in another hyper-plane of some kind of 4D space, err I don't know how to explain that in English Basicly a couple of feet in a direction that we can't go in. I don't know what you mean by something existing in a dimension, a dimension isn't an object, not even an abstract object, (try pointing to the 3rd dimension.)

If we're talking about the first Idea(the one which makes sense) then why exist in our hyperplane in 3s, surely there's an infinite number of others, it's pretty unlikley they should choose ours.

(If anyone's lost me at this point, Imagine an infinite number of parralell universes, arranged in a line so that every point on the line is a different universe (this line is a 3rd dimension of space, you can't picture it, just imagine that for every number there is (including fractions and irrational numbers, but nut including complex numbers) there is a universe. so between any 2 universes there is an infinity of other universes.) Gen-X is suggesting that quarks move through these universes in the same way as we move through space) When I refer to a Hyperplane in 4D space I mean one of these universes.


now, there is no next hyperplane to ours, between ours and any other hyperplane there is an infinity of others inbetween, how do the quarks Jump across these planes (remember, they are moveing as if through space) and how do they exist in ours and ours alone, if they exist in several then they must be a spherical ended hyperprism, ie they are the same size in all the hyperplanes they exist in, therefore they are a finite size in one hyperplane and not in the next, but as I have said, there is no next hyperplane, there is no way it could work this way, or any other way that I can think of.

I can think of a different explanation, essentially the amplitude of the particles probability wave is complex (most probability waves are in fact imaginary, it is the negative of the square of its displacement that in fact gives its probability of being there (that's true I believe)) the colour of a quark represents the amplitude can be any of 3 values R, G, or B which are complex numbers sutch that

R^2, G^2, B^2, (R+B)^2, (R+G)^2, (B+G)^2 are imaginary and
(R+B+G)^2 is real, ie only when the quarks are in a three do they have a real probability of being anywhere

I havn't bothered trying to find solutions to this, I dopn't even know if there are any I also can't think what an imaginary probability would do but still, this way makes a bit more sense.



Megatron

If there wer enough photons in a room they would prevent you from going in, experiments have shown that light exerts a force, just not a very big one, NASA are investigating wheather it would be possible to power a space rocket by shining a powerful laser or maser on it.

[Edited by Sam Finch on 05-13-2000 at 11:05 PM]

[kedaman]

Sam:
I thought parallell univeses where disconnected from each other in room, just time connects them, and in one way, splitting one universe in infinite ones every moment. Or am i wrong? Either way, i don't believe in parallell universes becauses it bases on that universe has to be random.
Meg:
E=mc^2, that's what a scientist would say, you can calculate the weight by yourself: m=E/c^2=h/(lambda*c) where h is planc's constant, c speed of light and lambda the wavelength of the photon. I'm don't have the values here but a photon is a particle so it has a size.

I believe that how you act is based on the functions in your DNA, thus there is no need for a soul.

[Gen-X]

Megatron

Haven't you ever heard of "Solar Sails"? It is an attempt to use photons in space like we use wind on the high seas. They DO have both size AND weight.

Oh and about your DNA thing again.. why repeat it? If you have MORE to add then by all means restate and "ENHANCE"... but just simply restating your believe (ie no support or examples, reasons or anything else) is like someone trying to convince themselves something is true.

I *am* a mushroom... I *am* a mushroom... I *am* a mushroom

:D


Sam

I don't think you have grasped what I am getting at with "other dimensions"... Think about our own for a moment. Dimensions are contained "WITHIN" dimensions.

LENGTH
This dimension doesn't really exist as far as we are concerned... its kind of imaginary. Its a vector and it has a direction... Lets say X=3. This gives us a straight line but if we look at it from the perspective of the 1st dimension it is EVERYTHING. There is no such thing as X=2 as far as X=3 is concerned...

Its only when we introduce the 2nd dimension that the 1st dimension exists in more than just one thing. Now we have X=2, X=3, X=4.5, X=<infinate>. Its the "WIDTH" that allows us to now say something like X+Y=3.

So as far as the 2nd dimension is concerned it "CONTAINS" a 1st dimension... That doesn't mean that the 1st dimension exists purely in and of itself... that ALL matter has 1 of its 3 sides in the "SAME DIMENSION". What it means is that for each 2nd dimension there exists inside it 2 1st dimensions...

Now lets look at the 3rd dimension. Inside it there are 1st dimensions and 2nd dimensions... OR there are 3 1st dimensions.. Basically one contains the other.

Now lets add Time. The 4th dimension. For each existance of a point in the 4th dimension there is a fully complete set of the 1st 3 dimensions.

Are you starting to get the picture now?

So lets just say that quarks naturally exist in the 5th dimension. With US being in the 3rd dimension, and activated by the 4th dimension (without time we would be static), we don't see these Quarks because they exist outside of what we know and can see.

[Example : You are a 2-dimensional being. You look around you and see nothing. Suddenly a hole appears infront of you out of nowhere!!!! What you don't realise is that this "hole" was created by a person sticking a pencil THROUGH a sheet of paper. because the 2-d being cannot "see" the 3rd dimension of "depth" he cannot see the pencil coming... he can only see the END RESULT]

So something happens that causes these Quarks in the 5th dimension to form a CONNECTION to our 3rd dimension... a union of 3. Perhaps together they set up a resonance wave that draws them into the 3rd dimension.. or perhaps it is an "echo" of their existance in the 5th dimension...

Either way they are not anywhere we can see or tell because we are limited to be beings that exist in only the first 4 dimensions...

Does that make sense now?

Gen-X

So technically, if there was so much light in a small room, I would be unable to enter it because there is too much light?

[kedaman]

Meg, if you would open that door you would be burned into ashes.

What's "Quarks"?

[Sam Finch]

Thanks for explaining what a Dimension is, now go and look it up, what you're describing is a space(a special type of Group)
.
a space is a set of points, one of them is the Origin.and an addition operator. we define a space as N-Space if you Need at least N Real Numbers to Identify a point, ie we live in 3Space we need 3 real Numbers to Identify a point in our space, given that an origin is defined.

Now We imagine your "5th Dimension" ie a 5Space we Define

O our Origin
X,Y,Z,T and Q four points in our 5Space

sutch that the Vectors OX,OY,OZ,OT and OQ are orthogonal and of the same modulus

we define the point (x,y,z,t,q) as O + x(OX) + y(OY) + z(OZ) + t(OT) + q(OQ)

(Basicly 5D space with its Dimensions called X,Y,Z,T and Q)

a Subspace is a Space contained within a Space, so that the 2 spaces both have the same origin

our universe is the subspace q = 0 ie every point that can be reached from the origin without moving iin the Q direction,

What we call "Now" is the subspace q = t = 0 ie every point that can be reached moving only in the X,Y and Z directions. T is our Time dimension

OK now we know what we're talking about. you were saying a quark is a line through this 5Space and for some reason it can only exist in our 4Space if it is a group of 3.

This Means that There is something special about our 4Space which I kinda object to. it also Implies that there is something special about all the points and directions in our 3space.


There's a load of things you'd have to fix about quarks and this 5th dimension, They'd have to be wierd shapes, they can only rotate about an axix R + lamdaQ (a line in the Q direction), It makes for a lot of extra rules governing these things, and in physics we like less rules.

[Gen-X]

For the love of @#(*$&(*&^ @#$ *(@#&$

Sam... WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!


I am NOT Talking about a "Space".. I am NOT talking about the mathematical RULES for Geometry.

Why can you NOT get out of your head the use of mathematics in this!?!??!


Read my example regarding the figure in 2D and the Pencil coming from 3D.