For all the people that hate Microsoft

[Zej]

YOU SUCK is what I say to all of the
low-life's who hate MS. If it weren't for them,
you'd still be using some pretty crappy OS's, with
the exception of UNIX, which is only for advanced
users who use it anyway.

After reading a fourm (Like the OS one) a lot of
idiots think so.(I wont mention names, but if you want to see them, go to the "Making your Own Operating System" topic
and read the FIRST message and many more too)

Well if that's the way how you guys feel, I say you should
get your jealous ass out of here because guess what, MS
made the VB you're using. They made the whole Visual
Studio some of you are using AND they made the most
popular Operating System that you are using!! If you want
to see the real suckers, just go look in the mirror, because
it's you.

For the intelligent people who are not jealous of MS,
good for you. Without them, the whole computer industry
would be a pile of trash.

Thanks for reading.

[Nitro]

Oh my God!

Mr. Zej!

Finally, someone who thinks like me. I really ****en, ****en hate those who complains about Microsoft too. Similar, I think if it wasn't for Microsoft, we would not be sitting here today.

I do admit Microsoft have alot of bugs but their accomplishments are way above. Who is perfect in life? People in general just like to complain. Hum! Ironically, that is what I am doing.

I notice most of the people who complains about Microsoft are the ones who are not good at the product or won't spend the time to research on it. It is just their easy way out to say they don't suck!

There is a guy at my company who thinks Microsoft sucks but at the same time he thinks a college degree is just a piece of paper. He might be right, but he also don't have a degree. At the sametime, he can't tell me why it sucks. "Easy and Lazy man way out!"

Have you ever notice so many big companies, that are one notch below, hates Microsoft. It is call JEALOUSY!!!

This is just my opinion. So, please don't be offended by this posting.

[kedaman]

Can't help people hate things, especially OS, like Windows. I agree with people that thinks the windows interface is boring, but I also agree with people that thinks the world woudn't come this far without MS. So I think a shell replacement should solve the problem

[Sam Finch]

Oh good, I thought everyone hated microsoft just because Bill Gates has too much money, Good on him.

I don't like the way all microsoft help systems tell you how great the products are rather than how to use them.

Other than that without microsoft we'd probably still have to install a printer driver for every piece of software we use and every program would have a completley different UI which would piss me off

Either that or we'd all be using macs and complaining that whoever owns them and I HATE Macs.

[Jimlin41]

I don't hate Microsoft but I have A LOT of complaints about Windows. I actually like Microsoft's products because they usually run faster than the competitor's. Take MSIE for example. MSIE 5 runs faster, loads faster, and operates more smoothly than Netscape. NS crashes a lot (at least once every two days) on my computer too. I also think Visual Basic is the best thing that's happened for programmers since the invention of C.
What I don't like about Windows is it's crappy documentation. I don't like going online to a forum everytime some error happens on my computer. Two of my hobbies are computer hardware and programming. I really hate how Microsoft is beginning to "simplify" everything. I'd really like to see an option during the Windows install for advanced or beginner users. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I'd really like to skip some of those options designed for beginners.

[SteveCRM]

I like Microsoft, they gave us VB, I just hope this case against them doesn't hurt anything that has to do with VB or programming! And for people that are angry at bill gates because he has too much money...your just jealous that he can hold more in his pocket that you will ever see in your life. Remember, he donates MILLIONS to charity.

I think people who hate microsoft are really cool, they belong in SUN, where they can Burn Worse then hell cause these cool people suck ass more than my neighbor's dog, PEOPLE WHO HATE MICROSOFT SHOULD BE PUNISHED TILL ALL ETERNITY, You're not forced to use Windows, you're not forced to use VB you're not forced to DO ANYTHING that you don't want, Hey **** you if you don't wanna use windows, go use some other mother ****** OS... You're free to do so, BUT guess what you don't want to do that, do you, because you'll miss all the nice little stuff that microsoft put in the OS and how easy it is and how all the games are made for Windows.. I think you people are really ******* stupid.. WINDOWS IS NOT BAD! WIndows is ONE HELL OF A GOOD OS, the best I"ve seen so far, MAC SUX ASS!!!... You people are just plain ignorant... if I put myself into microsoft's chair, I would be ******* doing the same thing, NO DIFFERENT, the ******* point of a buisness is to make money and become number one, and all of you dumb ***** hate that because microsoft is NUMBER 1 no matter what ******* jurry decides that they're not, and no matter what happens, MICROSOFT WILL ALWAYS RELEASE STUFF THAT'S MORE ADVANCED, look at netscape, I think it's the worst browser I've seen in my entire life, I downloaded it, and I ******* deleted it in less then 3 seconds... the load time, oh my god, **** that ****... MICROSOFT RULES <snip>

[Edited for language by James - 04/08 ]

[Sam Finch]

I think we should Email this to Bill, It might cheer him up about his company being split up and sued

[kedaman]

I wonder why anyone (I think there are tons of those, maybe 90% of windows users) don't dare to complain about what we are just posting here. I thought there were more windows-haters than the worlds population in 2048

[RavenCrow]

I prefer linux to windows but I do like VB. This is purely my own preference and why people get into this hate like thing I have no Idea because we are all different. As they say "Different strokes for different folks". BTW The makers of delphi is supporting linux now in their new delphi but I haven't seen Microsoft ever trying to lift a finger to further development by supporting other companies. All they ever do is take over that what they want and don't give a $@#% for others. I don't hate the os, I hate the people behind the os's philosphy but thats just my point of view and you have the right to your own.

RavenCrow, you do have a good point, but why should Microsoft support other comapnies? As WildGhost said, The point of business is to make money and become number one, which, in a sense, is true. Microsoft shouldn't give slag for other companies. Why should they help others out? They are in competition!

[RavenCrow]

Megatron, that's why I said that I don't like Microsofts phylosophy. To me money doesn't mean everything. To me the most important is to learn, experience and grow and help others to do the same. As they say, "Two heads are better then one". Instead of Microsoft and Sun Microsystem standing together and bringing us the best automated home, they prefer to quibble over who's protocols are the rule which in the end mean that there would be even more incompatibilities between automated homes then what would have been if they just stood together. He who lives for himself, will find he has much less friends then he who helps other be as strong as himself. Thats my view in life.

[Jimlin41]

RavenCrow, I don't think that Microsoft should team up with their competitors. Competition means choices for the consumer and it also usually means more advancements in that certain industry. If MS didn't have to compete with Linux and MacOS, the consumer might be stuck with Windows 95 SP15 instead of 98 and 2k ME. People might say that 98 and 2k don't have that many advancements over 95 and they'd be right, but there are actually a lot of good additions. Win 98 supports USB ports without a patch. There's even MORE integration between MSIE and the desktop (sigh...) and driver installation has never been easier (sometime's it's more annoying). Those are the only ones I can think of right now.... but I know there's a lot more. If Linux suddenly started becoming incredibly user friendly with tons of hardware AND software support, MS would need to start working on more updates and fixes so Windows can compete. That's why markets need competition. (remember that whole anti-trust thing?) ;-)

[RavenCrow]

I agree with the fact that competition is good Jimlin41 but there is a point when it gets more distructive then doing any good. You are right about linux not being so user friendly yet but the fact that they have survived (and are being sold more then Windows 98 in china) still puts a bit of pressure on MS not to slack down. MS almost makes it impossible for competition to be able to exist (wich is what the court case is all about). Competition is good but as soon as you trie to "kill" your competition rather then seeing it as a means of developing further, it becomes sadistic. Our company put another company out of business because they were still dodling with technology of 10 years old and not because we shut the door on them by making it impossible for theyre apps to run on computers that has our apps on it (which by the way they tried to do to us by distributing dll's which our installation couldn't overwrite and with which our app could not function). If Apple had trade marked theyre spreadsheet program (Apple invented spreadsheeting), no one would be able to manufacture a product like X-cell or lotus 1-2-3. But instead Apple saw it as a means of developing the technology further. Anyway, enough of this, to each his own and may the path you choose to follow lead you to happiness.

[Jimlin41]

You make some good points there RavenCrow and happy trails to you too.

[Wen Lie]

Well...

I don't think that we should argue about this. At my own side, I love Microsoft products. Yeah, run faster and more compatible with Intel h/w products. And one more thing, Microsoft launch update faster than other products.

But, we can't blame others who hate Microsoft too, yeah, you don't know the reason why they do that. But, one thing for sure is, life is full of competition, full of ego, and other similar things. So, I think, let them do whatever they wanna do. But, we also do whatever we wanna do.

Let them (the one who hate Microsoft) to find what they love. But, for us who love Microsoft a lot, just keep ourselves with Microsoft.

Remember, life is full of competition atmosphere. We have to fight with each other, just like what Microsoft do, to compete with other products.

:)

BRgds,
Wen Lie

Sam you got it right. Before Windows..spent like for ever writing printer drivers for bold, underline, etc etc etc.

Windows enforced a standard on the business desktop...allowing...alot of other companies to develop products and launch them selves. Where would Sheridan, GreenTree et al be without the Windows API standard.

Now having said that l agree with some other points here, we support Unix/Pick/Mac Os sites as well as Windows. Each has advantages for there own segment of the market.

Go Borland with your Linux port of Delphi. Maybe some of the people hammering MS will disappear over there. Eventually they will learn....business don't want Linux. You think the "I Love You" bug was costly. Image you are a hacker with the source code to the actual OS kernal!!!!!!

Having survived the 80s unix battles, SendMail, FTP and TCP/IP bugs allowing hackers to burn systems, l am perfectly haoppy in a MS world.

Go Bill, kick their arses.

[Paul282]

I like VB
I Love Standards in Any industry
I understand that MS created many of those standards

...SO?

Do I like MS? Not Really. I don't hate them bacause I can't be bothered.

I don't like when companies have monopolies. and I HATE when companies abuse their monopolies to force out competitors.

You are all saying "I like the company that goes up to vendors and says 'If you install competing software on YOUR computers that YOU make then we won't license any software to you and you'll go bankrupt' "

This happened, more than once, Intel have done the same.

I say "CUT THEM IN HALF" No more of this coding secrets into the OS so Office runs better! or financially squeezing small comapanies! garbage. (Intel used to have a policy that they take everyone who sells a competing product to court so that the court costs force then out of business, even if they are wrong)

People say "IT's their OS they should be able to do what they like!" NO! They have a monopoly and they've broken anti trust laws, they forfeit that right by law

Not many people can doubt that MS management have been amply rewarded for their contribution to the industry.

But now they contribute to the detriment of smaller competitors.

I like VB
I like Windows
Linux suporters annoy me like Mac supporters used to
But I don't like large corporations like MS who use their power to break the law.

Cut 'em up. They've proved that they won't listen.

You don't have to like MS to like Windows

[Gen-X]

Before I add my 2c worth I just want to know which operating systems people have used before.

I will give you a list of some of the better known ones and see what answers I get back.

Oh and I hope all the people who quoted in here reply.

1. MS Dos (any version)
2. Windows 3.1
3. Windows 95/98
4. Windows 2000
5. Windows NT
6. OS/Warp
7. Mac OS
8. Amiga OS
9. Unix (BSD)
10. Unix (SCO)
11. Linix
12. Sun OS
13. XWindows

Please feel free to add to the list.

But basicially I want to know what your experience is for basing your statements on.

[Paul282]

We're to be judged are we?

OK,

MS DOS up to 6.22 (didn't we love running games in 640k.... NOT)
DR-DOS (sued MS for ripping off drivespace)
Windows 3.1 / 3.11
Windows 95/98
Windows NT
Windows 2K
OS/2 (Briefly, hated it)
TRS80 Basic OS, loved that system ;-)
Linux Redhat 5.1 to 6.1
Solarus 2.6
Atari ST (simlar to Mac)
Mac Os 7.5 (briefly, hated it, but not as much as I hated OS/2)

For the Unix / linux shells, X11's etc
-Xfree86 3.3.1 -> 3.3.5
-Bash
-C-Shell
-CDE (SUN)


[Edited by Paul282 on 06-09-2000 at 01:31 AM]

[Gen-X]

Thank you paul.

From your reply I can see you have actually used multiple different Operating Systems... which means you have at least been able to compare the pro's and con's of each system.

Your answer to Microsoft then has weight in that you haven't JUST used windows and decided it was the best and hate anyone who complains otherwise.

I HATE people (usually snotty nosed little butt-wipes), who only started programming last year, have never used anything BUT Windows95 and then try to say its the best operating system around and all Mac users suck and all Unix users are idiots.

I have used all of these OS and I can see the advantages/disadvantages to each of them.

One thing I have to say with MS and their Windows product however is that they had both the MEANS, the TECHNOLOGY and the MONEY to be able to produce an Operating System to an amazing level of efficiency and reliability....

And the result has been Windows

Based on the fact they had the monopoly AND the resorces they had no consideration for the users, did not care less if their product ACTUALLY did what it was supposed to do... and instead concentrated on making sure you HAD to install it on every computer in existence so they kept their market share.

Take for instance the release of Windows95. It wasn't until Win95 Version D that their original promises made for Version A were actually complied to, it wasn't out on time (neither was Win98 OR Win2000), it required several patches and fixes and wasn't compatible with existing applications or dedicated software.

At the very LEAST when Apple Machintosh releases a new version of their software it meets the claims they stated, runs all old software (within reason and moreso than MS), and doesn't have a tendancy to crash every could of minutes.

Microsoft could have taken their time, input the money and the resources into making Windows the ONLY operating system people WANTED to choose instead of forcing them to choose it by Large Company badgering rather than the merits of the product itself.

THAT is why people hate Microsoft... They don't hate windows or the products... they hate the fact that a company as large as this does NOT didicate itself to producing bigger and better software... but instead dedicates itself into achieving a larger chunk of the market while pushing out the BARE MINIMUM required to stop people from completely leaving their company and going to work on a Unix box.

If those people who hate those who hate microsoft have any problems with this then I challenge you to quote for me all the operating systems you have used before making your comments.... let your knowledge and your experience speak WITH you instead of your ignorance and inexperience.

[markwestcott]

Do you people think that it was not for Micro$oft's fluke by of QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System as it was called by its maker), we would really be sitting at command prompts, or crappy OS'? NO! DOS wasnt microsoft product, a GUI was not their idea. They were not the first people to implement a GUI, infact, they stole the idea of a gui, like they stole everything else. Just look at half microsofts products. How many times is there a 'copyright someone else' in microsofts about dialog. Just look at IE 'based on NCSA Mosiac' So that isnt theres. Direct X was bought in its early stages by microsoft from a london based company. Microsoft do nothing themselves. Scandisk, Imaging, Defrag ALL BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE!

Right I've had a good shout now. THe only reason I still use microsoft windows (and thats their only product I use) is because hard ware manufactures have been to slow of there arses to release drivers, as have software companies to port software.

[Crazy D]

Of course people complain, that's human nature. Not many people say something when they like it, only when they dislike.
And Windows isn't that bad, it did a lot of good things for computer market. But, after a 4rd crash in a row (and I wasn't even programming or running one of my own programs, only some M$ products) I can't help it that I say "bloody M$ you suck". At least Linux doesn't crash that often.
But the main reason I still use Windows is because I don't want to spend a lot of time on the OS, I run an OS to do certain things, and my experience with Linux is that I have to do too much work to make the OS run the way I want it.
Sure, Windows needs some install time too (and it might be the more experience I have with Windows that installing goes faster then with Linux), but for me that's the main reason to use Windows.
Of course they did a lot of good things, and it made computing a thing normal people (not nerds...) can use (even my stephdad can use Windows, although he doesn't know how to copy a file from floppy...). That's a good thing I think. But it's not such a great thing that certain bugs are still not fixed. That's a huge advantage of Linux, since it's open source, a lot of people try to fix the bug themselves when they find one and spread it to other users. But that's nothing against M$, that's only something against closed source stuff.
And if you don't like Windows for whatever reason, either stop using it (there's enough alternatives), or, if you *must* use it, stop complaining. It doesn't help anyway.
Oh and the saying "a company doesn't want Linux, imagine a hacker with the source code of the kernel" is bull. Why do you think most webservers are running Linux? Not because they want an OS that's so easy to hack, if they would want that they would use Win95 first release....
Hmm now I did say a lot more then I wanted to say :-)
Oh and it wouldn't be a bad idea if M$ would make software for Linux. It would show they are not ignorant, and accept competition. (oh, once they split up, Linux is no longer competition for the non-OS group of M$, so... )

[Paul282]

The first GUIs were invented by Xerox, and Steve Jobs saw it and ripped it off for the MAC!

And it wasn't just M$ that made the PC dominant, the PC had more software than the mac and that was mainly because of IBM (lotus 123 etc)

I wouldn't give MS too much credit for the world we live in!

Then of course there is Intel

So why should M$ have the monopoly when the industry has proved that it can stand on it's own two feet?

CUT M$ UP! Let Ideas rule, not Money!!!!

I like Windows,
I don't like Microsoft

I think Zej should read a bit more history of the PC and computing before he jumps on the MS band wagon and starts shouting slurs

Where would IE be if there was no Netscape as a competitor? No there is almost no competition and IE is not getting any better.

Competition drives inovation
Customers money drives standards

MS drives good startup businesses out of business
...And Zej Drives me up the wall :D

[Paul282]

I think I'll take the Bong at home!

Bit tired or working truth to tell :)

Johnnie black'd be better though

[Edited by Paul282 on 06-09-2000 at 03:35 AM]

[gfk]

Originally posted by Paul282
So why should M$ have the monopoly when the industry has proved that it can stand on it's own two feet?

CUT M$ UP! Let Ideas rule, not Money!!!!

I like Windows,
I don't like Microsoft


How would you feel if you built up your own company from the ground, which eventually went on to totally dominate such a large industry, only to be told that you're too good and you have to demolish your company? They've got that big because their products are better than anyone else's.

If someone other than Microsoft released an earth-shattering program, people would use that instead of the Microsoft equivalent. If they DIDN'T use it, then it probably wasn't so earth-shattering after all.

Let's face it, if Bill Gates came up with the idea of dividing Microsoft into various pieces, he'd be investigated for ****ing tax-dodging.

Microsoft is OK. Yeah their products have bugs, but, tell me the name of a program that DOESN'T.

Bill Gates getting a pie in the face was v. funny tho.

:D

PS. Can I just point out that if Microsoft didn't exist, you wouldn't have Visual Basic and this forum wouldn't exist... unless it was called 'pizza-world.com' or something...

[Paul282]

I said twice before I like windows and I like VB.

I think their API is an amazing piece of software engineering

BUT, If I created a huge company that broke anti-trust laws continuously and whenever remedies are suggested I ignore them because I think what I'm doing is more important - then I deserve everything I get.

How does a criminal feel when goes to jail?

Of course Billy is going to be upset and he has every right to fight the decision. But it's not about Billy, it's about microsoft.

Other companies get hit with anti-trust penalties, most don't get broken up, but then most don't continue to flagrantly break the law.

Windows will still be here when the dust settles
Billy will still be rich
and I'll still be programming in VB (but with a bigger smile because for once MS didn't win, they finally met a bigger fish that they couldn't drown with their OS monoply -although not for lack of trying)

"If you screw us it'll hurt the whole industry !!"

-funny, everyone else in the industry doesn't seem to think so!

[Judd]

People have made some good (and some not so good) points here. I personally have nothing against MS or Windows - in fact I think MS are being unfairly targetted with the anti-trust thing.

Don't get me wrong, it's most likely they did break the law, but they aren't the first company to behave the way they have and I think their size just makes them a (literally) bigger target.

Paul, you live in Japan, surely you appreciate the way that the Japanese megacorps have total control over which foreign companies get a foothold in Japan? (it usually being the foreign companies they own). I also think you are overestimating the effect that splitting MS will have (if and when it ever happens, there are years of appeals to go yet). MS-OS and MS-Software will still manipulate and coerce the market. I can't see anyway the courts can legally stop too companies co-operating if they want to. OK, so the 'bundling' issues will be solved, but things like those 'tricks' to make Office run faster on Windows will still exist.

Business is business - and it will never be entirely legal.

Just my thoughts.

[Paul282]

No arguements!

You won't find me defending any part of Japan's corporate structure. There are many things about Japan I like but it's corporate and govt corruption is not among them. Not that the Australian Gov't is any good either, 'cause it sux the big one too!

I shall finish with a SouthPark Quote

"You DIE, You ganna burn in hell and DIE"
-Mr Hat

:D Love that show!

...yawn... be heading off home for a scotch soon I think. Nice talking to you all again.

O-Tsukaresama Deshita ...

[Bill Gates]

Well this thread certainly makes interesting reading!

[Gary.Lowe]

if it makes me money and I can use it (Sometimes)

BRING IT ON

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Paul282]

The truth is that people seem to be forgetting something very important.



...take yourself awfully serious, who appointed you god?

I think I'll go back to the question threads. This thread's gone from an amusing debate to a call to the self-righteous.

Hopefully you're excuse is that it's early in the morning and you've had too much to drink.

Ciao

[AndyC]

Overall i like microsoft... It's Windows 95 & Windows 98 I have the problem with, they are always crashing BUT yes windows is better. The best thing microsoft did was made Windows NT it NEVER crashes if you have the right drivers. I say SCREW WINDOWNS 9X GO NT!!! They just need to make NT(now windows 2000) more compatable with Direct X (if it even has it) so that's what i think...

[Eiredrake]

Why... Overlord Gates did of course.

Eiredrake

Andy. If you do not have Networked computer's, it's better to use Windows 9X than NT.

[NeilAvent]

hey! This is an intense discussion. My opinion is that as a whole Microsoft does produce good quality software, NOT the best in the world but good enough for us to do our jobs instead of going back to paper based systems!

I dont agree with a lot of the choices Microsoft have made, but should that really influence the consumer? In a capatalist environment the consumer should spend his pounds(or dollars) on whatever will give the greatest return. Obviously there can be reservations on where the money goes although Microsoft appear to treat the competiton harshly they dont appear to support terrorists or other organisations which should make you not support them.

Incidentally I was understanding Microsoft only had a 50% stake in VB. Corel having the other 50% even though it was marketed under Microsofts name. I could be wrong though...

Have used:

Dos versions 3 through 6.2, fine for desktop apps
Windows 3x, 95,98,Nt4 excellent stuff
Unix Sco,Aix,Solarius, exellent for medium to large scale businees apps
Pick R83, AP, D3, very underated
Universe
PrimeOS
MAC OS, what a load of crap, caren't get to the operating systm level. What are they trying to hide???? Besides version 10 is unix in drag.
Linux, enough said a unix wannabee. Use it at home to learn Unix. Gee those GUIs are more Windows than Windows.

Paul282,

Apple used to take competitors to court as well to protect the MAC GUI. Ask Hewlett Packard why they never developed a Windows style interface.

Microsoft are being broken into two. Yippee now the rest of us can mauybe get a look at the specs for Windows which never get published, or at least get published a couple of years after MS has implemented them in word etc.

[Yonatan]

You're probably not going to believe this AT ALL, but I have sources, and this is Bill Gates' REAL E-MAIL ADDRESS:

billg@microsoft.com

This address is probably taken from the Microsoft website, but I'm not even going to start trying to find out if it's there. Too tired to be hurled away into the abyss called their website. :o

P.S.
I like Microsoft except for the whole monopoly thing... Many will agree with me, or have already done so.

Already l can feel those spam programs starting up. Now if we also had John Howards'

[REM]

I agree with u lot on Microsoft being a good company. I am pissed off at an American judges recent ruling that Microsoft has to be split up into two seperate companies. It is absolutely outrageous...

Bill Gates built Microsoft up from the start, with Microsoft developing the worlds most popular operating system. Now, if other people from other software companies are gonna mone and whinge at what they call 'sneaky tactics', which is actually just business, then i think they should just sit back and take a look at themselves... I think they will find they are pretty jealous.

What other companies claim to be 'sneaky' tactics is just general good business. If they were in Bill Gate's and Microsoft's position in the market, they would be doing >>EXACTLY<< the same thing, trying to earn more and more money... Which is business :)

If you can't handle the heat, then get outta the kitchen :D

Laterz

REM

It's pure jealousy. No other products on the market can compete with Microsoft. They can outblow all of the other Office tools including Corel Office. And not to mention Netscape? Oh please, it's so damn slow. Explorer is much faster. I'm not even going to go into the development Tools because we know that Visual Studio can mop the floors off Borland.

[Wolfman]

So nicely putted. I agree with you 500% REM. There are simply losers out there. The best things in the world will always have small glitches, but people just like to pick on them and can't see the big picture.

Take President Clinton for example. I think he is a great president. What does his sex or personal life have to do with his job. Other leaders in the world does sex acts too, so why make a big deal.

Wolfman John Howard couldn't find his dick with both hands.

I agree with IE being superior to Navigator and its free with Windows....oh it was free until the DOJ decided every one should have to pay for it.:(:(:(:(:(

Don't worry Bill the cheques in the mail. Please could you light a fire under your developers backsides and get Agent 3.0 rolling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never knew that people would have to pay for Explorer now. That sucks and Judge Jackson sucks too. Microsoft would probably have it for free download off their website.

I will not use crap like Netscape.

[kedaman]

I thought you were using Netscape Meg? IE4 eats still eats my resources but not as badly as before, that's odd.

Nope, I switched to Explorer about a month ago.

[kedaman]

Yeah this thread belong to chit chat, as many other bat threads around here. Well, batman, i'm having my little trip next weekend, i got another phonecall again, thats typical.

Hehe, the good thing with ie, was that all bookmarks are shortcuts in the favorites folder.

[AndyC]

I still won't use it but Netscape FINALLY released a new FULL version, not point realeses. It's better but still needs LOTS of work.

Andy

With IE there is an export option which allows ya to save your stuff anywhere on your system. Just import the file to re-establish. Am using Team Server so don't have the options to view how IE works. TeamServer is actually superior to both IE and Navigator. Talk to Fujitsu to get a copy.

Regards,

[kmchong]

I like the Windows' standard, I like the GUI etc.

I don't like Microsoft.

If under a fair competition, if MS product is better than others, than of course, it deserves the glory and the money.

But do IE really designed and implemented better than Netscape? I don't know.

But just by common sense, I don't believe that MS is good in most area, why their software can be more effective in performance?? Ah....

IF MS hide some API only for their internal purpose without disclose to other developer, and put these into their own product, THEN IT IS UNFAIR COMPETITION...

Unless MS disclose the information or agree (and obey) to disclose the same information to others, and then they perform better than competitor. Then they really is the best in the industry.

As a technical person, if there is a short cut in OS, we should understand how much impact it is in the performance and stability (not to say intentionally slow down competitor's software).

In the past record of MS, it seems the competition is always unfair (take a look in the MediaPlayer and RealPlayer).

[Gen-X]

Microsoft made its money off the backs of others, from the ideas of others and from STEALING things from others.

Why do you think they bought a percentage of Apple Macintosh?

Steve Jobs caught Bill Gates with his fingers in QuickTime and the moron wasn't even smart enough to remove the copywright in the code before using it in M$ products.

So he was not only forced to buy a share in Macintosh (hence he wont destroy his own investment) but also had to sign contracts to release MS Office 98 FIRST on the Mac as well as IE 5 (which was released AGES before it was on the PC and was a lot better as well).

Bill is a Genious when it comes to working out whose shoulders to stand on to get to the top I will give him that... but it certainly wasn't as a result of the quality of the products he produces....

[Bonker Gudd]

Good shout, Gen-X!
Windows 95 was just a copy of the Arcamedies O/S.
Bill Gates gets a big Thumbs Down from me.
I'd be much happier using X-Windows on Unix, that never crashes.

[jdavison]

I'm not the biggest microsoft fan myself, but I don't dislike them either. They have done som marvelous things for the industry. The thing is, if you can come out with something better you can beat microsoft. Look at windows CE for example. It was basically the only OS for the Palm top. However you hardly see it anymore. Why, cause there was a better os release and the consumer went with it. When somebody release a better os for the PC enviroment I believe it could beat Microsoft. Until then windows is still the best all around os. And vb is still the best all aroung Programming language. I've done development with others and vb is the simplest to write and debug. If something better came along I'll go with it but until then Microsoft is the way to go.

Just My Opinion,
John

Uhhh....then why are you using VB and Microsoft stuff then Gen-X? Doesn't it makes you seem a bit full of it?

[jdavison]

You do realize gen that Jobs stole the operating system first from xerox. also Jobs put gates into a position where he had to invest in apple and jobs massively increased his share of the company in the process along with his pocket book. I hate to tell ya but apple is just as guilt of its practices as microsoft. Bill was just smarter about it.

[Gen-X]

jdavison

I'm not the biggest microsoft fan myself, but I don't dislike them either. They have done som marvelous things for the industry.


What exactly have they done for the industry?


The thing is, if you can come out with something better you can beat microsoft.


That isn't the case... its the old Video Recorder principle. Beta was a BETTER system than VHS but because there was so much VHS out there it won not by the merrits and QUALITY of its product but by the sheer VOLUME of the product.

This is Microsoft... it isn't keeping its market share because of the quality of its product... it is keeping it because it is so infused and integrated into everything out there now we couldn't get rid of it even if we wanted to


And vb is still the best all aroung Programming language. I've done development with others and vb is the simplest to write and debug. If something better came along I'll go with it but until then Microsoft is the way to


VB may be simple to write and debug, I agree with you there... but VB isn't viable unless you are in an environment where you can install all its runtime files or you are in a corporate structure.

There is no such thing as being able to put a VB app on a CD and run it off the CD... even this simplest feature isn't possible.

I'm not saying Apple is any better/worse than M$... but at least their product is released at the time it designates, is far more stable, runs older software better and requires fewer patches and service releases applied to it.

This isn't saying Apple is better by a longshot, its just one highlighted point.

To the man with no name

I'm not stupid! The majority of the equipment, programming and computer useage is on Microsoft and their supported products... I use them because that is where the money is and that is how I make a living.. I am not going to be so stupid as to turn down 90% of the market for no other reason than I dislike the company and believe their product could be FAR better than it is.

There is nothing "full of it" in that... its common sense.



All I am saying is that if Bill Gates invested just 1% of his overall profit back into the testing of his products before shipping them out we would have had Windows98 released as Windows95 and Windows2000 released as Windows98....

Can anyone deny that they would have liked this?!?!?!

We got Windows95 and within 10 minutes of using it we found BUGS.... Are you telling me that a company as BIG as M$ couldn't find those during the testing process???????

[Wolfman]

Will someone wake this guy up. Whoever said that he is full of it, you are right. He just writes long boring messages trying to secure himself.

[Gen-X]

If you disagree why don't you actually state some reasons instead of shooting your mouth off and letting it dribble into your nappies?

I really can't stand people that take a swipe at something yet don't even have the intelligence or the GUTS to say WHY it is they have a different opinion.

:mad:

Or is monosybalic rhetoric your only capability?

[NeilAvent]

Hey Gen-x!

How come your website dont work?

I think maybe you need to seek professional help to help control your anger to Microsoft <jk>

[jdavison]

If you want some examples here you go:

1. Windows unlike mac can use multiple different drivers from many different companies yet you can use and of them because they created a module to act as an inbetween. This makes your life as a programmer alot easier.
2. MS compilers are the best I have worked with. They give very specific errors and where they came from unlike java and some of the C compilers I have dealt with.
3.They have made programming so easy with vb, that people like you can do it.

I have notice one thing since I have come on here Gen, that you will argue and try and make others sounf like an idiot but you never give and facts to prove your debat. Are your related to a politician?

[Wolfman]

Originally posted by Gen-X
If you disagree why don't you actually state some reasons instead of shooting your mouth off and letting it dribble into your nappies?


If you have sometime when you are not writing those long boring messages, read JDavidson's posting and you might learn something smarty. The no name guy is right too, you are full of it. I read your evolution junk and some of it contradicts each other.


Originally posted by Gen-X
I really can't stand people that take a swipe at something yet don't even have the intelligence or the GUTS to say WHY it is they have a different opinion.

Or is monosybalic rhetoric your only capability?

I don't care what you can stand. You don't have the intelligence for me to waste my time to talk intellectual. You tried to portray yourself as an intellectual individual with all those fancy grandiloquence words but you are nothing more than just a sad case. You are a looser who criticize but still uses their softwares for a living. You should be grateful to have a job.

Why don't you go and compete with Microsoft instead of using their software for a living? HMMMM.....

Is that intellectual enough for you? Name one thing in the world that is on the top, but have no errors. Can you name one? Of course not!

[Edited by Wolfman on 06-14-2000 at 05:07 PM]

[jdavison]

I really need to proof read my post. My typing and grammar is horrible. Please accept my appologies;)

Where can we see the code?

Also, why should they have to give up their hard work of the source code? Any experienced C++ programmer can just copy the whole thing and make their own OS.

[jdavison]

I have just packaged a vb app and ran it on another pc with no vb software installed. It installed and ran fine. Also GEN if you are going to quote me use all the information I gave with it. You take on line of my statement and ignore rest of to try and support your argument. VHS and Beta came out at approx. the same time. I do remember this. I will admit that in my opinion that the beta was better but it never caught on the same way that VHS does, mostly because of the marketing I believe( it was a while ago). But to give another example, Commodore was probably the most popular computer of the time by far but look what happened there. Also look at the intel chip. Intel was the sole cpu manufacture for pcs but AMD is taking more and more of the market. It can be done, you just need to build and market the better mouse trap.

I have just packaged a vb app and ran it on another pc with no vb software installed. It installed and ran fine


That's probably because the runtimes were included with Windows or another of his software had installed them.

[Gen-X]

jdavison

If you want some examples here you go:

1. Windows unlike mac can use multiple different drivers from many different companies yet you can use and of them because they created a module to act as an inbetween. This makes your life as a programmer alot easier.


Perhaps you should do your research first. THe Macintosh doesn't NEED drivers... all peripherals that will work with it use the SAME STANDARD PROTOCOL to perform their tasks. This means you can just plug any Mac compatible printer in and IMMEDIATELY use it.

No drivers, no installation, no proprietry applications like HP's print center... NOTHING

Secondly. Your "internet profile" can be generated on the Macintosh and ALL internet applications immediately use this profile because they have been written to use the standard interface. THis means you don't have to put your settings into Netscape AND outlook AND ICQ AND everything else.

When was the last time you used a Macintosh to base your spurious comment on?


2. MS compilers are the best I have worked with. They give very specific errors and where they came from unlike java and some of the C compilers I have dealt with.


Hehehhe... I agree here... althought sometimes I wonder if the reason it can give you such specific errors is because its introduced them itself. :)



3.They have made programming so easy with vb, that people like you can do it.


Mmmm... now do I take that as an insult?


I have notice one thing since I have come on here Gen, that you will argue and try and make others sounf like an idiot but you never give and facts to prove your debat. Are your related to a politician?


Interesting theory. I don't support my argument with facts.... So using VHS/Beta as a "fact" to "support" my "argument" that quality doesn't always indicate largest market share was me just saying nothing at all?

Perhaps my "fact" about the failed release dates of the Windows software again really didn't support my claim they could have done better? Or how about the example of print drivers on the Mac to "support" my debate that you have no idea what you are talking about when attempting to highlight a benefit of Windows over MacOS?

Mmmmm... Geee... If they are not facts I would be very interested to hear exactly what are?????

Wolfman

I read your evolution junk and some of it contradicts each other


Oh but Mr Wolfman is ABOVE such petty mortal things like contradiction and making mistakes... Oh no... Mr Wolfman is absolutely perfect in every way imaginable.

I admit some areas may contradict.. that is what being human is all about... Some of them are as a result of error and some of them are as a result of lack of understanding.

Whats your excuse for living with us mere mortals?


You don't have the intelligence for me to waste my time to talk intellectual


I doubt your ability to talk intellectual... So far I haven't seen a single postulation put forward and supported... just like I said before. You keep opening your mouth and keep dribbling.


You are a looser who criticize but still uses their softwares for a living. You should be grateful to have a job.


Whats wrong with that? Are we supposed to just sit in a corner and shut our mouths and bow down to the great Bill Gates God for giving us the privilege of using his software?

I have absolutely NOTHING to be grateful about for having a job... if it wasn't Microsofts products then I would be using other products and still getting paid sufficiently for it... Doesn't bother me.


Why don't you go and compete with Microsoft instead of using their software for a living? HMMMM


Because unlike your unintelligent self I would never even consider the possibility that ANY company could produce software that would be able to compete with a company that holds the majority of the market knowing it would cost an inordinate amount for any business to completely change from MS to something else and STILL maintain connectability to everyone else who is yet to move.

But then again.... if you were smart you would have realised this... So perhaps I should be the one who couldn't talk intellectually with you?


Is that intellectual enough for you? Name one thing in the world that is on the top, but have no errors. Can you name one? Of course not!


Actually it was quite stupid... had no supporting evidence and simply made derogatory comments... At least when I am being sarcastic I can add a few facts and examples to the mix.

Oh and I can think of one thing that is on the top and has no errors....

Mr Wolfman

NeilAvent

They are doing some changes on the server where my webpage is located and as a result PHP is currently inoperable until they have made their modifications.

Such is life on the internet.

jdavison

I have just packaged a vb app and ran it on another pc with no vb software installed. It installed and ran fine


You really have no idea at all do you?!?!?

Now that you have installed your application on the other PC go back and try running an application that used the OLD version of some DLL you just installed over the top of.

Or try copying your vb app to a floppy disk or a CDROM and get someone to run it from the CD... What you can't!?!? it wont fit on a floppy because although the application is only 84k the support files are 2MB??? Awww... what a shame


Also GEN if you are going to quote me use all the information I gave with it. You take on line of my statement and ignore rest of to try and support your argument

What you mean your comment about the WindowsCE? The software was appauling... Its completely different to compare 2 products that are functioning well enough to comparing the replacement of an OS because it was absolutely abismal.

So tell me JDavison... Consider this.

1. A new OS comes out. Its 1000% better than windows
2. In order to be this good it is NOT compatible with Windows

I am a company who is looking to purchase this new OS.

1. I have to purchase the OS for each machine I have. Thats 300 copies for my office.

2. I have to purchase applications that run on this OS, 300 Word Processors, 300 spreadsheets, 300 databases, 300 email programs, browsers.

3. I have software dedicated to my company... it cost several hundred thousand dollars to produce... I now need to RE-WRITE it for the new OS.

4. I have 7000 MS Word documents that I need to convert to the new Word Processor... that could take months if not years.

5. Everyone else in the world still uses Windows. What if I want to download some files from someone's windows machine? They wont work... what if I download files from the internet? They won't work.

So overall... even if the Operating System was 1000% better than Windows it would cost me the better part of a couple of million dollars JUST to change over to it.... not to mention the cost in lost business, lost production and the hassles of STILL having to deal with a world that mainly runs windows.

Do you start to see the picture yet?!?!?!

Please jdavison... I want you to reply to this and say whether you agree or disagree with the points of this example?


But to give another example, Commodore was probably the most popular computer of the time by far but look what happened there


CBM was NOT the most popular computer of the time. The quality of the Amiga was superior at the time of its release (especially in England) being able to support a truely multi-tasking operating system but it failed due to the poor management of CBM... Despite being bought out by a German company and then again by an American company it still failed to get anyhere not only because of poor management but because MS already had too much of a hold.

How do you think Mac survive today???? They don't "COMPETE" with MS... they find their niche and they attack it.


Also look at the intel chip. Intel was the sole cpu manufacture for pcs but AMD is taking more and more of the market


Oh brother!!!

We are talking about a product that requires "SUPPORT".

VHS/Beta requires Video Tapes. Majority of Video Tapes are VHS... therefor VHS wins.

Windows/Commodore/Mac requires Software. Majority of Software is Windows.... therefor Windows wins.

What exactly does the intel and AMD chip require that is not usable by the other which places this example in the same category?????

I agree with you that when the "choice" is not influenced by external supporting products and you can use everything available on BOTH products then quality wins...

But this isn't the case here.

[Paul282]

I think that Gen-X has too much free time!

I'm not sure if I aggree with the above post because it's so long I can't be bothered reading it!

Take a Valium dood!

PAUL

[Tyler from Alaska]

I agree with you Paul!

[Tyler from Alaska]

Ha, how come my posting is back down to 1. I have posted many times in the past on this site.

[Paul282]

Maybe John doesn't like you !!!

[Tyler from Alaska]

Hey, your signature has the word aussie. Are you from OZ? Do you know how to speak Japanese?

Ok even if MS don't give the full skinny on their API and other hidden niceties, till well after their own developers have cranked out the latest version of Office, they still provide the framework in an open fashion. Note the ease of getting at APIs.


For years Apple refused to allow access to the internal workings of their OS, that is why a lot of developers move to Windows and made it the number 1 OS for desktops.

Who wanted to dick around while Apple made their minds up about the next generation OS...should we go Next, should will go BeOs...now they are even talking about going to a Linux/Unix cross bred OS. These guys are idiots. Bill Gates was absolutely brilliant in getting a standard out, it may not be the best, but it will be improved on in subsequent releases. Meaning l can start development today, not when the vendor finally gives a direction.

64-bit for the Intel platform is only a year or so away, do you want to risk the wishy washy approach Apple will no doubt take on their OS for the Motorola equivelent, or will you invest in the Wintel consortium.

Apples are still desktop machines. AppleLink is a joke, and their so called network printing is a complete shambles. NT creams them everytime. Win2000 should also give Unix a run for it's money.:):):):):)

No offense to anyone...but as a desktop machine Apples are great...as a business tool they sux.

[Paul282]

Originally posted by Tyler from Alaska
Hey, your signature has the word aussie. Are you from OZ? Do you know how to speak Japanese?

Yes to both... Why?

[Gen-X]

Paul

Hehehe... its got nothing to do with time on my hands and more to do with the fact that I type at about 130 words per minute which means the 5 minutes I spend on here from time to time churns out probably 2-3 times the amount of text most people can in the same time period...

Hey, I can't help it... ****, I have a typing speed of 45wpm on my left hand alone!!!

Jethro

I'm not supporting the Mac at all, I agree with you completely.... but jdavison was using incredibly poor examples that a "non-business" platform like the Mac beat hands down.

Thought I dispute your idea of API's being "easy to use" and "open".

1. Have you seen the registry API's... why couldn't they just make a class out of it?

2. Do you know what the API functions inside the rnaui.dll for Windows95 are? What there parameters are?

Admittedly there is more than enough info on major dll's but there isn't anywhere you can go and get a list of what is actually contained in lesser known ones.

POINT TO NOTE
Anyone who can get me a breakdown of the rnaui.dll gets a freddo frog!!!!

Tyler

Chat messages don't count towards your post total. The post total is supposed to reflect how much advice you give to other people and considering this isn't really advice all these messages won't be included.

If you read the previous statement l made mention of the fact that many API calls aren't document, or at the best are documented way after their use in MS Applications.

Hopefully with the breakup into an OS and a Apps Company this will improve.

l agree with you...API calls should be put into classes, this would make immediate and profound changes to the industries view of vb et al.

And who was the idiot that stated vb is easy to develop in. Sure if your apps never get beyond the "Teach Yourself VB in 21 days", but if you start having to use APIs, classes, and numerous third party addins the process blows out in complexitiy. We have a couple of intern programmers...Uni types working in spare time....and they are having great problems with some of the more advanced vb stuff even though they have been taught C++ at Uni......

[Gen-X]

It amazes me how some people say how easy it is to code in VB... I agree with you completely.

Hand them the task of writing 3 applications with one running on a remote machine as a console, the other being loaded as an NT service and running in the middle and the other being spawned dynamically to handle processes from the second one... with all of them talking via Winsock and being able to manage dynamically both a database connection and stick its fingers into Microsoft Project while being able to detect when "question boxes" are being displayed on the server so it can automatically press them....

And you will find these people run back to their tiny little VB apps and put their fingers in their ears.

Now attempt to write your code so that it is hetrogeneous across both WindowsNT and Windows95/98 (which have different registry structures, different API's etc), be able to access multiple Network resources and still be able to report any errors on the fly....

And thats just what I have to contend with this week... next week its back to completing a Document Management system that uses DLL's accessed through MS Word, connect to Visual Source Safe repositories (anyone who has seen the object model for VSS knows what I am talking about), interface with SQL Server to support both v6.5 AND v7.0 (yes they have different system tables), interact with the DLL's of someone elses proprietry software while being able to automatically detect the user and their privileges and allow them to not only control documents both in and out of this repository and database...

But do it all without having to ask the user many questions and keeping it so simple that even the bimbo secretaries can use it without breaking a nail.

Ah well... there is one thing I do credit VB with and that is rapid development.

Guess all good things come in time

[hanging out for polymorphism, inheretance and TRUE multi-tasking in VB7.... C has had it to itself for long enough]

[jdavison]

That is the best point you have made so far. I'm not saying vb is the ultimate language. but in most case it is the most efficient and effective way to do things. From a web developers perspective I have found it to be the best of the language for overall use. I wont argue C++ and Java arent more powerful because they are but they are definately more complicated and more time consuming. Feel sorry for you about having to deal with SQL Server 6.5 though I have to say it was not one of MS better products but after working with 7.0 and Oracle I think SQL server is the better way to go although Oracle has better error handling. Good luck on your project, I can sympathize.

John

MS is the company that made Windows, so naturally (but not always) thier products are going to be better. Can you think of a development tool that can beat any of MS's tools? I can't.

[jdavison]

I agree. A hammer is the best tool :)

Funny. But seriously, none of the other companies out there can compare with MS. Look at Borland C++ Verses Visual C++. Which do you think is better?

[Gen-X]

jdavison
[/quote]
That is the best point you have made so far. I'm not saying vb is the ultimate language. but in most case it is the most efficient and effective way to do things.
[/quote]

Erm... It certainly isn't the most "effective". That would be coding in machine language so that it runs as fast as possible.... and it certainly isn't really "efficient" as far as the end product goes although it IS efficient as far as the programming goes...

But what is more imporant? That it is easier to code or that it works better for the client?


From a web developers perspective I have found it to be the best of the language for overall use.


Huh!?!? What?!!? "web developers"!?!?!

VB as a web language is next to unknown. Yeah so they introduces web classes in VB, it is still restricted to environments that run WindowsNT and it is still restricted to those that have the VB runtimes installed. Over 3MB of information required just to get a tiny little CGI program running that says "Hello".

But then again you might be talking about "VBScript" done via Active Server Pages (ASP)... Different kettle of fish altogether as you can use PerlScript, Javascript (No not the client side but a cut down of Java similar to how VBScript is a cutdown of VB), and I believe coming soon PHPscript.

I have used ALL of these and I have to say that VB as a web language misses some very useful features such as associative arrays, proper CGI interface validation and a few other areas.... You can't beat Perl or PHP if you want to develop something that runs efficiently for an internet client... especially now that PHP v4 (Zend) is releasing a compiler that allows you to optimize the code and keep it private.


I wont argue C++ and Java arent more powerful because they are but they are definately more complicated and more time consuming.


Thats why they are used...

more time consuming for programmer = faster more efficient for client


Whenever a client asks me to provide a solution for something I have to weigh up how vital "speed" is to the project... what their priority on maintainability and adaptability is.... If they say speed isn't a vital issue (ie they aren't talking about sub-second running times for processes) and they want the ability to keep it updated and changing then I will recommend VB. If however they are talking about some process intensive system that requires the processing of MILLIONS of pieces of informations within seconds then I will recommend something like C.

I had a project once that had to import, sort and distribute 500MB of information that came from a single streamed source. They originally wrote this process using a 4GL that imported directly into a database... The last estimate they had was 57 ***DAYS*** to run to completion.

I re-wrote the code using GCC (on unix) and had it completing the entire process in the space of 2 hours and requiring an additional 4 hours for importing it directly into the database.

Sometimes things like C++ ARE needed... it isn't open and shut


Feel sorry for you about having to deal with SQL Server 6.5 though I have to say it was not one of MS better products but after working with 7.0 and Oracle I think SQL server is the better way to go although Oracle has better error handling. Good luck on your project, I can sympathize.


I have to admit... I dont like the interface on 7.0... its too "Access" for my liking. Its like they are trying to turn SQL Server into a "user" application rather than a DBA or a Programmer interface... I only hope they make serious improvements with SQL Server 2000 (fingers crossed)

[jdavison]

You would be suprised how often VB is used in web development. Most of our com objects are written in VB and our asp pages are written with VB script. It runs great. Yes its true that it runs in an NT enviroment only but Every developmnet project I have seen has been in NT and we constantly use COM objects. Vb script is not that much different than VB itself as far as the the syntax they are almost Identical. Most companies now seem to want to stay away from CGIs and java applets. We do use java too but it is more time consuming to write alot of functions and VB is the most efficient language in alot of cases.

[Edited by jdavison on 06-19-2000 at 11:25 AM]

[Gen-X]

jdavison

You would be suprised how often VB is used in web development.


Actually I wouldn't be surprised but I think you are failing to understand the nature of the internet.

As I said before... the MAJORITY of the internet runs on linix and unix... NOT WindowsNT.

So this means the MAJORITY of the web development is done using perl, php rather than ASP.

I would agree that most Windows-based-internet-development is done using VB (or more correctly VBScript) but that is mainly because the Web Servers are mostly IIS which funny enough is Microsoft.


Most of our com objects are written in VB and our asp pages are written with VB script. It runs great. Yes its true that it runs in an NT enviroment only but Every developmnet project I have seen has been in NT and we constantly use COM objects.


Isn't that EXACTLY what I said above????
I would assume that the development projects you worked on were either mostly INTRANET or specifically commercial with a requirement to interface with existing business data processes. In this case they would be mostly WinNT and probably require VB because most business RUN on a Windows platform.

But again don't confuse that 10% with the entire internet development spectrum which again does NOT use WindowsNT.... hence my questioning of the term "web development"

Maybe you need to see more of the internet world to understand this.


Vb script is not that much different than VB itself as far as the the syntax they are almost Identical. Most companies now seem to want to stay away from CGIs and java applets. We do use java too but it is more time consuming to write alot of functions and VB is the most efficient language in alot of cases.


Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. I do a lot of contracting for the government, development both in pure VB and with VBScript on ASP to interface with everything from MS Word to SQL Server and back again.... "Most Companies" are talking about a specific type of company and corporate one at that... the "main" area where contractors like myself end up working...

I also do some internet work on the side... developing CGI for Internet Service Providers and companies that are "not-so-corporate" which funny enough make up the LARGE majority of the content on the internet. None of them use WindowsNT... in fact most Internet Service Providers will attempt to steer clear of NT because of its inherent security problems and lack of ability to be "tweeked" sufficiently. Also... to get an ISP running on WindowsNT means you have to keep purchasing more and more software from M$ to be able to do all the tasks you want.

I have seen both sides of the industry... I am thinking that perhaps you have never actually seen this other side and hence your belief that "Most Companies" are keeping away from CGI....

The clear disproof of that is the fact that PHP4 is becoming one of the most widely used internet languages, Perl is still running stronger than ever, MySQL is still the most widely used internet Database and companies software like Apache, Linux and the like is selling RAMPANTLY more than WindowsNT is in the internet market.

Don't confuse Companies that require a webpage with those who have an "intranet" with those who try to do business on the internet.

I have CGI work coming out of my ears from companies (smaller ones) who simply cannot find people who have the skills to be able to make it work.

I mean have a look at this website... What do you think the "showthread.php" was written in!?!?!?!? And this is a VB site? Surely if it was so much better etc then you would see "showthread.asp"

I rest my case ;)

[Wolfman]

You rest nothing! Here is the idiot that made fun of my fictional member name. At least, I don't have a name that is slang for a b**ch! Genital-X chromosomes.

Ok for fast web servers unix is the go. However NT servers are catching up, and with the next generation of MS products will overtake unix.

We are in the process of sourcing a Unix box to host our web stuff...because unix rocks for web processing. Hmmmm will probably have to adopt either Java or the Delphi clone to get full ecommerce going.

[jdavison]

Have I done something to you that I am not aware of or is it just because I disagree with you on some issue. Every time I say anything your quick to jump all over it like you know everything which you don't so give it up. I do realize that most ISPs use unix but from a COMMERCIAL prespective(since I need to be specific) most development is done for an NT enviroment. Nasa is even running asp code. As I stated before, VB is not the ultimate programming language but it has its benefits. But then again, unless I agree with you, I dont know what I am talking about do I. I am sure you'll change what I have said to make your point seem more valid as you have taken everything I say out of context.

[Wolfman]

Don't bother with that idiot JDavison! He needs help because have you noticed he always want to win.

[Wolfman]

You should change your name to Quote Idiot

[Gen-X]

jdavison

I agree with you... but I did say that it was only commercially that your statement holds.

Whats the problem with that? Are you so far above being corrected? Would you prefer to wallow in misinformation?

I agree with you completely that commercial web development is mainly NT.. In fact I said that in my post...obviously you are starting to miss what I write.

Wolfman

Are you really so pathetic as to believe you can taunt me into retallitory swearing and offense throwing?

The last time I saw someone attempt something like that was a 4 year old boy....

You remind me very much of him... Enjoy your childhood

Wolfman

Maybe ya could have an arguement with my four year old son. What a waste of posts

jdavison

Maybe if your post were more accurate then Gen-X wouldn't attack them.

I disagree..the last three web servers we have installed have all been linux boxes. Sure Microsoft will eventually dominate with NT/ASP/XML, but there are a large number of sites companies which have no foot in the MS world....

Have formed own company, and yes we will be using UNIX for Web deployment...till Vis Studio 7 anyway

Oh no its Batman.......am tracking you dude. Following you back to your home page. Hmmmm.....Wolfman seems like the type of block you would be great mates with..

Remember am getting closer to your lair.

[Gen-X]

Yes but you have to ask yourself a question Batman...

"Would you dance with the devil by the pale moonlight?"

Maybe you should go back to playing with your Nintendo. And we are tracking you.......hmmmm....actually my four year old is probably a bit too smart for you guys and would get bored with the level of conversation.

And no am not trying to project your style.....that would involve complete loss of all abilities on the keyboard...

Any way back to commercial coding..........been fun......but more challenges await on other sites

[Gen-X]

Lets just say that I am the Azrael of the group and give me a little space *WG*

[kedaman]

Don't even think about that batman

As soon as Batman hits the thread all meaningful debate ends. Sorry wont incite him/her/it in the future.

[SloBurn]

People be nice to each other in here, Batman will be erase soon if he keeps this up.. I know cause I'm TMoles work collegue and next of kin.

[SloBurn]

Surrender Jetho, for the good of humaninty and this forum..He killed my collegue TesticleMole.

Ok as said above have given up inciting the Bat....only encourages him......will fire a last cone for Testicle...


Zej.....your right about those who hate Microsoft...which was the thread starter in the first place.....

Logging off to score

[jdavison]

I think we need a Bat BarBQ;)

Batman

Sorry, I have not been around much. I didn't read your earlier threads because I usually read the last message in the thread and post my thoughts towards that.

[MerlinZG]

Microsoft has its problems. However, without MS, most people would not even own a computer today. Myself, I started out on an Apple IIe and went to a tandy with DOS 1. Don't laugh, I was in my early teens back then. I have a lot of respect for what MS has accomplished however I am VERY disappointed in how they went about doing it. Intimidation is never a good business practice. For the amount of bugs and problems that MS has, it charges about 75% too much for their products. But the suckers are the ones who actually pay their extortionist prices. Personally, I have gotten quite functional with Linux. And havent paid for a MS product in years. :p

[Gen-X]

Think about it for a second...

Imagine a world where Bill Gates did NOT steal a Disk Operating System and approach IBM selling it to them as his own....

Imagine MeSsy-DOS never being used as the platform for IBM (who was the largest manufacturers of PC's at the time I think).

MS-Dos never got used, so things weren't FORCED to be backwards compatible... Companies like Apple, Xerox, Commodore who each had GUI interfaces well BEFORE IBM ever truely released Windows having a larger share, more profit etc...

Imagine then that these companies grew large enough basing their future releases not on being FORCED to be backwards compatible or with the terrible philosophy of making it too expensive to change over, but instead basing their future releases on their own merrits (The Amiga had a graphics chipset years ahead of its time but couldn't release it because of costs and a dwindling market share).

We might not have MS today, we might not have Windows... but instead we might have products that are more user friendly, more flexible and a lot more robust.

The 3.5" floppy disk for instance.... On a MS-DOS PC it can only store 1.44MB of data... The same disk on an Apple Mac can store 1.66MB or data and on an Amiga it could store 1.86MB of data.... This in itself is proof of how inefficient MS were... they placed a second FAT table on every piece of media they formatted... duplicated every directory read/write from this second FAT table and yet NEVER truely used it for any significant purpose because if the primary because corrupted you couldn't even FIND the second one to make use of it.

I think the world would have been a lot more advanced if MS hadn't taken the share of the market it did, killed off competition and used a ruthless FORCEFULL tactic to gain business instead of letting its products stand for themselves.

[Paul282]

What do you guys think about C# (C Sharp) ???

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/nextgen/technology/csharpintro.asp

It'll be in the next version of Visual Studio, It's based on C/C++ but fixed up, not as messy as C++.

It's said that it will be RAD like VB to bring productivity levels up on a lower level language. I think it's looks like it'll be worth at least trying out. Value and Reference Variable types are pre-set so there will be no int pointers, just array, object and string type pointers.

No screen shots yet unfortunately but the language syntax is released.

I'll definately have a play with it. (especially if next version VB still can't static link and C# can)

[mikeycorn]

Two things to consider when people talk about how stable the Mac OS is . . .

First, how many third party hardware vendors does Mac have to coordinate with to get things in line for a new release of their OSes???

Now, just try to imagine the logistics involved when Microsoft coordinates a release of Windows!!! The PC is the only game in town for most of the hardware vendors out there, and when Win X comes out, there will be thousands of drivers on that CD from hundreds of companies. It's amazing that all this hardware works with the operating system as often as it does and it's this huge sea of choices that we have on the PC that makes Windows the place to be!

Second, can anyone count as high as there are software titles available for the PC? Just think about all that freaking software that has to co-exist peacefully in your registry. When you're cursing at the Blue Screen of Death, I hope you realize that it's just as likely to be sloppy code in the program you were running or software that you uninstalled that didn't properly cleanup after itself that made you crash as it is something that Windows did to you.

I'm not saying that we should be so grateful to Microsoft that we should tolerate these occasional crashes that we have to deal with in the Windows world, but I have a feeling that as maniacal as Microsoft is about annihilating the competition, the more they hear about people going over to Linux because of the stability it provides, the more they'll work to tighten the code.

Going back to the comparison of Mac vs. Windows, in all fairness, it is true that the gap in hardware availability is becoming less and less of an issue as USB becomes more and more popular. It's also true that the Mac users have their PC emulation software, but that just seems kind of pathetic. If I want to run Windows software, I'd rather just buy a PC. On the low end, I can buy myself a very functional PC for under $500 (with a monitor.) How much Mac can you get for $500? On the high end, PCs offer processors running at 1 GHz, and there's two companies making those processors, battling for your business.

Hey, it's Bill's world and I enjoy hanging with the 90%.

mikeycorn

[tumblingdown]

Do we think that if Jobs (& Co.) had got to IBM first, he would not have done same with Apple as Gates (& Co.) has done with MS - yeah right. Or that Parc weren't aiming for IBM anyway?

THIS IS SUCH A MOOT ARGUMENT.

We have witnessed some fledgeling industries hatch and grow. As with others, they will change and transform from there current incarnation. Market forces got us to where we are now and will ultimatley take us forward.

[Paul282]

Does that take away my freedom to dislike them does it?

[tumblingdown]

Nah. Knock yourself out!

;-)

[Jimbob]

I think the whole monopoly thing with microsoft is pretty crappy, but you have to admit that if MS had never got themseleves into such a strong market position, someone else would have.

think of all the companies that have fallen by the wayside. we could all be complaining about a company who behaves worse and releases worse products.

at least with MS we know what products we are getting, we know they expensive and that they will often be buggy, but what software isn't? (not mine that's for sure!)

we also know that the products will work as we want them to without too much messing around, and that ANYONE can learn how to use them.

Where will Microsoft be posting the source code to Windows?

[MerlinZG]

They'll probably post it on Apple's website. God knows they're not using it for anything constructive!

[Gen-X]

First, how many third party hardware vendors does Mac have to coordinate with to get things in line for a new release of their OSes???


Actually NONE

Because Apple do it the "smart" way... They get the third party hardware vendors to CONFORM to the protocols, and if they don't conform then they don't get the ability to have their hardware run on the platform.

This ensures consistency, modularity and fewer hassles.

Same goes for Software... ALL software on a Mac has to meet a requirement before it can be released (excluding small people hacking) which means the software will NOT interfere with anything else because that has been checked.

Windows on the other hand says "Go for it everyone, all jump in, do it your own way, clash and fight and bash anything you like"... and when it all falls in a heap they point the finger at someone else.

It was this "no-holds-barred" approach that got the PC and Microsoft in the position they are today...because any cheap hack could knock off a PC based on the schematics without following all the rules... so people were "duped" into bying machines that were NOT 100% IBM compatible. They flooded the market with cheap and nasty products until they reached a point where it was out there so much you couldn't get rid of it if you tried...

Now it is biting them in the ass... Now the original concept has reached such a size that more and more things don't fit, don't work together... my printer driver interfers with my modem, or my scanner interferes with my printer... these programs won't work together, those aren't compatible, upgrade this, patch that.... Lets make 2 different types of Windows 95/98 and NT... Oh now lets drag them together (Windows2000)... Lets stop supporting Win3.1, now lets dump Win95... now lets force everyone to use Windows2000 and make it stop a lot of other software from working.

The amount of work that has been created as a result of MS products not doing what they were supposed to, or CHANGING how they did what they were supposed to has cost companies BILLIONS of dollars.

I should know... I'm the one called in to fix all these problems. You write code to interface with Project98 and then find the object model for Project2000 is completely different (re-write), Word2000 again is completely different (already re-written when they stopped supporting wordbasic)..... And the list goes on

[mikeycorn]

Hey Gen-X,

Speaking of stuff not working, I wanted to check out your website, and in the bottom left corner it said it was detecting my browser, then I got this message:

The page you are looking for cannot be displayed because the address is incorrect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, check that it is entered correctly.

Open the gen-x.iweb.net.au home page and then look for links to the information you want.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.



HTTP 405 - Resource not allowed
Internet Explorer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(I've got IE 5.0 by the way.)


I do enjoy reading your posts but I've been around long enough to see how far computers have come since I was a 13 year-old punk in 1982. I think Microsoft and the PC monopoly have been a good thing for us all. Hell, if the hardware and software on PCs were as tightly integrated as they are on the Mac, you'd be out a job! You should be praising my man, Mr. Gates.



mikeycorn

[Gen-X]

Yeah I know... The ISP I go through are merging with another and so they are in what they call "a transition".

Grrr.. Wish they would have told me they were going to disable PHP and all other CGI before they just did it :(

Originally posted by MerlinZG
They'll probably post it on Apple's website. God knows they're not using it for anything constructive!

Why would they post it on Apple's site? When you look at all of this, it's really unfair.

[parksie]

If anyone here has seen Monty Python's "The Life Of Brian", then they'll know what I'm referring to. In a way, M$ is like the Romans - not particularly well liked, but they gave a truckload of useful stuff to ungrateful people. Personally, I think M$ has made some good things (like Visual Studio), and some bad things (like _some_ of Windows). Whatever the DOJ say, Microsoft has done far more good than harm to the PC industry. Apple may complain, but they're the ones who tried to keep it to themselves, where Microsoft a) licensed their software to others, b) opened up the APIs, and c) made the OS customisable. Yeah, I know, it took till 1996 to get it sorted, but with the Microsoft/Intel partnership, the consumer wins a lot of the time. Having used many OS's (DOS, Windows 9x, Windows NT, MacOS, Linux, RISC OS), I can honestly say that Windows is definitely the biggest and most sprawling, and many people complain about it. But if you look at what it provides the developer (millions of hooks into everything) then it is a lot better than many of the others. Linux is technically better IMHO, but it has a long way to go before it has the same ease-of-use as Windows.

[Tyler from Alaska]

I like your way of thinking Parksie. Especially about the romans.

[MerlinZG]

Megatron: I was simply trying to be sarcastic. :) In other words, Microsoft could post on Apple's website because Apple doesn't use it for anything constructive and is just taking up space. IMOHO. :)

[Sadil]

The main reason I dislike Microsoft is the way they conduct business. Yes competition is good that is why I do not understand anyone that likes how MS did business.

Anytime a company started making something that might compete Microsoft did one of two things. If it was a very small startup they just bought them out. If it was a company unwilling to sell then they refused to give the software the "Windows Seal of Approval". End users tended to buy things that had that "WSOA" on the box.

If I recall all I read right they even tried to buy out Netscape in the days of IE(1).

Then they started telling computer manufacturers "We are not going to sell you any OSes if you include Netscape on systems you build."

Let's face it I doubt OEM's could have sold alot switching to an OS that the end user would have little to no Applications for and if it was bought for a child no to very few games.

MS wouldn't of ever had a problem if they did not continually buy out smaller competition and try to stiff arm other companies into doing things the MS way or not doing them at all.

I realise some of the people reading this thread have the misconception that the OEMs were jealous of MS. Why would they be jealous of the company that made the OS that was on all the computers they sold? Answer they weren't. They did however, not like MS trying to force them into only bundling certain Apps on thier systems.

Sadil

P.S. Wolfman I would guess Gen-X is either short for Generation X or Gen-X is a fan of Marvel Comics so you might want to work on coming up with something insulting because your idea as to what it stands for was just sad.

Microsoft has the right to not sell their OS to any comapny they want. If they wanted to, they could agree not to sell their software to any company that does not use Microsoft products. This is right because they are the ones that had worked hard to produced the best selling OS in the world. The government has no right to tell Microsoft what to do with their software.

Regarding Microsoft buying out small companies, first, the companies are not obligated to sell themselves to Microsoft. It's their decision. Sure Microsoft will put a good price up, but that's call business. That's how they stop competiors. They are the most successful Computer business in the world.

[mikeycorn]

Hey Sadil,

Why on Earth do you think it might be that consumers tend to stay away from products that don't have the Windows Seal of Approval? Hmmm . . .

We are still in the fledgling days of the Computer Revolution. Guess what you would have without a Microsoft monopoly??? You would have absolute chaos!!! Thank God that in the early days we all (or at least 90% of us) have been able to agree on one thing and all the efforts of hardware and software companies have been dedicated to making Windows products. This is the best way to get the industry off the ground. The monopoly has already peaked and the competitors to Windows will continue to increase market share little by little.

The government is trying to engineer competition when it's totally enevitable! The government is trying to punish one of the biggest contributers to this unprecedented period of productivity and economic expansion.

I am as proud to be an American as any person could be, but this oppressive, fat, bloated government of ours often fills me with an urge to vomit.

[Harrild]

The Rest Of The World (u do know who that is don't you?) is already vomiting.

I have nothing against Windows other than it has suddenly taken a huge hunger for my spare space on my hard disk. VB is great QB 4.5 was great.

Microsoft have good business plan to make their products more popular they make programming languages which anyone can go out and buy to create a program for Windows. Now last time i looked you couldn't does this with a MAC, could you?........Gates could just get around that selling thng and sell it to his wife...using her maiden name. hehehehe problem solved......he's happy most of us are happy and the US governmen has got the shits but who cares what they think?

=-)

[Salador]

When it comes to Microsoft, I have no shame in saying I hate them. I respect the DoJ's verdict, as one must see it from this point of view: Microsoft has never given any devloper a chance. Even us VB devlopers have been hurt by Microsoft.

Microsoft was happily sending out dev kits with bad documentation about winsock LONG after IE4 was released. Also, great, BG donates MILLIONS, but what about the over 75 BILLION he has left? He is being an a$$h()l3 with his sadistic taunts... I would respect him more if he donated several billion, mainly because it woulden't hurt him.

Also, this donation issue, it's only a tax write off for him[Gates]. He only looks better. In the long run, he is ripping off the American Government (who, I'm sure, would put more money into charity, if corperations would give money to them). Just think: PR at the price of the public purse!

I do respect Bill Gates for being fast. He also prooved to be dedicated to his cause to begin with, but, like an erect male organ, he seems to have become flaccid in these past years.

Any complaints about Windows I feel are not Bill Gates' fault. They are that of the Window's programmers. They are, for some mysterious reason, pressured to kick a product out the door. Sure, I use VB, but I have never made anything that triggered a GPF, or other problems.

That was my 2 cents.

[Sophtware]

****************SARCASIM************************************

Ill i have to say TO ALL YOU is i hate micro$oft and i would never study Vi$uAl bA$Ic... or whatever you people call it...
hmmmpff!! @ the thought of being a micro$oft programmer...

DOH!!!!!!!!!!!Opps!!!!!!!! hum ..ill shut up now .


**************eND sARCASIM**********************************

[visualAd]

I don't like Willy Gates :(

[visualAd]

I don't like Willy Gates :(

[CORONA BEER]

Bill gates is my role model.

[mendhak]

Bill Gates ate my homework.

[Wally Pipp]

I've never ever seen so many spelling mistakes in one thread. Let's blame Bill Gates! :mad:

[dsheller]

How the hell did you find this four year old thread anyway visual? Were you purposely looking for a dead thread to digup?

[visualAd]

Are you happy dsheller?

[dsheller]

Sure =)

[Cander]

visualAd and Bill Gates bump old posts.


EVIL I tell you. EEEEVVVVIIIILLLLLLL!

[nemaroller]

How do you necessarily hate a corporation anyway?

Isn't that stereotyping?

"You work at Microsoft, therefore you must suck!"

This thread obviously started before the fashionable world of being politically correct dawned.

Marketing at any company promises stuff that never gets delivered- that's the whole point of marketing.

Beer commercials promise good times and scantily -clad women. I can tell you one thing, when I open a beer, the only chance of a scantily-clad woman I'll see is my wife... should I hate Anheiser Bush for false advertising?

[Xcoder]

So now that I understand the basic principle of marketing I should shut my mouth and agree with everything billy G does?

[nemaroller]

You can do what you wish, just know, Billy G doesn't write the brochure, nor does he stamp his approval on it. Further, he is nowadays probably just as removed from decision making at Microsoft as you and I are.

Microsoft is a corporation owned by huge financial institutions. Whom hire cut throat directors, whom hire cut-throat executives... whom hire cut-throat advertising and marketing.

Not only Microsoft, but just about any other corporation you could fathom. You act like you're appalled by this and single out Microsoft among just about every corporation on the planet.

Does a Hemi in a Dodge truck really make it powerful? Because hemi technology has been around since the 50's... its nothing new, nothing special. But let the marketing get a hold of it... a wow... its got a HEMI under the hood.

Was Pepsi the choice of a new generation?

You want to really feel ripped off? Go to a football game for just about any NFL team... with tickets selling between $150 and $500.

Is John Kerry a coward like the Republican advertising states? I don't think so, the guy went to Vietnam of all places. He is far removed from being a coward.

[Xcoder]

Thats why somehow the ability to filter BS was given to us, does marketing really get to you? I dont think so, I was told once that marketing was actually targeted for kids under 5 with no judgment whatsoever so they can develop loyalty to some brand based on the appealing of a commercial. :sick:

[nemaroller]

Marketing gets to everyone... the statistics prove it. You can be aware of something and still be affected by it just the same.